Avro CF-105 Arrow what-ifs

Scott Kenny said:
So the UK has little incentive to buy the Hughes MA1 and lots of reasons to install their own radar and weapons systems.
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Oh, we're fully on the same page - I was merely stating the obvious rather than leaving it unsaid.

The only reason I could see for the RAF to have MA1-equipped Arrows on strength is as conversion trainers to teach RAF pilots to fly the damn thing or if they need a squadron or two while the British weapon package is being finalized. The Canadians are probably going to call theirs the CF-105A (fighter) and B (trainer), after the fashion of the F-106 single and twin seaters, while the Brits classify them as follows:

FAW.1 Canadian standard with MA-1 and Falcon, solely to have the variant classified if interoperation becomes necessary.
FAW.2 British standard, probably with Firestreak, Blue Dolphin, AI23 with illuminator (there's room in that big snout), and an Arrow-specific version of the auto-attack system that was designed for the Lightning. Depending on when the order is placed, Red Dean might get a stay of execution - the Arrow is certainly big enough to carry it.
T.3 British designation of Canadian MA-1 equipped CF-105B.
T.4 British designation of trainer version of FAW.2
 
StraGen410 said:
I have been reconsidering about the potential of Avro Arrow and its related Canadian made weapon systems

After looking at its early cold war era background history for multiple times, I have come to this conclusion below:

To be honest, it was really difficult to find an effective combat role for the large delta wing interceptor plane to fit inside NATO’s aerial tactics and strategies against the Eastern Bloc.

There were already several better and more versatile competitors like Mcdonell F-4 Phantom II as well as the rapid development in ICBM technology at its time, so it was getting more difficult to gain governmental approval for official RCAF service and mass production. Moreover, its prototypes never armed with guns.

Avro Arrow CF-105 is merely a glorified propaganda until today

However, I can think a reasonable “ What if” for CF-105 to barely survive after the 1960.

Instead of being a fast Tu-95 killer, I believe its design can be evolved into an all weather long range , high speed ( Mach 2 class ) , high altitude reconnaissance aircraft with black paint job for spying the Soviet airspace. It stood between U-2 Dragon Lady and SR-71 Blackbird. Also similar to the transition between Yak-25 and Yak-25RV.

The wings and the aircraft structure would be further redesigned and enhanced. The powerful Orenda Iroquois would also be modified in order to get used to the higher altitude environment for the U-2 and SR-71 type reconnaissance flight. The pilot would wear the astronaut style suit instead.

The original F-102 “ pyramid head “ style canopy and F-4 style air intake designs would be replaced by another new and different designs in F-105D Thunderchief style for better vision and flight performance. RCAF had a plan to purchase both Arrows and Orenda Iroquois powered Thunderchiefs ( AP-63-19E ) for replacing all the older and outdated subsonic fighter jets like F-86 and CF-100, and I would choose to let the Thuds to take the multiple roles of all weather interceptor, nuclear bomber, ground attacker and low altitude reconnaissance aircraft in RCAF, so it might made the maintenance job easier as well as help beautifying the air fleet’s image.

Due to Canada’s limited resources and global influence, I believe 15 Avro Arrow reconnaissance variant aircrafts and 3 trainer variant aircrafts were good enough for the early 1960s RCAF. But after the 1964, a further numbers of new CF-105 EW variant would be introduced into the air force too.

For the project of Velvet Glove air to air missile and its related SARH system to survive in the same “What if” story,
it need to be separate from the Avro Arrow project , evolve into a short range surface to air missile with structural enhancement in AIM-7 Sparrow style and became one of the world’s first mobile SAM system by fusing with a lengthen, modified XA-20 APC chassis ( Around 50 km/h in road speed ). Due to the restriction in technology and theory at its time, a Self-propelled launch vehicle variant arming with 4 missiles and a separated Semi-active radar station vehicle variant using a data link ( through a more efficient design of either British or American origin ) were created. These new rear engined tracked SAM vehicles would be operated by the Canadian Army and most of them would be deployed in West Germany, along with a bit higher potential to export to other NATO and anti-communist allies for new military market opportunity.

That’s all for my almost realistic “ What if ”

If you are interested in my alternate Avro Arrow science fiction fantasy, feel free to help further enhancing the topic.

If you don’t like my text post, please forgive me and forget about it for me!

Have a nice day!
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I have built my own alternate history timeline on the what if question of if Defenbaker didn't pull the plug,
I agree with you, it will evantually be converted to a supersonic reconniciance airfraft or in my own idea maybe a supersonic bomber

However, I beleive the real fritful potential of this alternate history is NOT the Avro Arrow but Avro Canada and the entire Canadian industy: that if Avro Arrow survive and enter survice in 1959, it would still become obsolete in mid late 1960s, but Avro Canada will live long enough to come up with something better and thus propagate the Canadian Aerospace industry to a scale we don't have in this universe (feel free to notify me if you are interested in my timeline)
 
LGSAdeptusAeronauticus said:
I have built my own alternate history timeline on the what if question of if Defenbaker didn't pull the plug,
I agree with you, it will evantually be converted to a supersonic reconniciance airfraft or in my own idea maybe a supersonic bomber

However, I beleive the real fritful potential of this alternate history is NOT the Avro Arrow but Avro Canada and the entire Canadian industy: that if Avro Arrow survive and enter survice in 1959, it would still become obsolete in mid late 1960s, but Avro Canada will live long enough to come up with something better and thus propagate the Canadian Aerospace industry to a scale we don't have in this universe (feel free to notify me if you are interested in my timeline)
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Agreed LGS', the real value would be in keeping Avro Canada alive. It is a bit OT but another possible route to keep Avro Canada going would to encourage further development of the C.102 Jetliner.

So, what if C.D. Howe's decision to kill the C.102 was instead simply a delay until cessation of hostilities in Korea. That would give Malton time to reconfigure the C.102 for twin 6,500 lbf Orenda 9s (with those domestic engines taking the place of the originally-intended byt unavailable R-R Avons.

Probably the way to achieve this would be to pursue development of the military crew trainer and high-altitude medical lab variants of the Jetliner. But the real goal would be developing a fast city-hopper for TCA and export by 1954.

Anyway, I for one would be interested in seeing your timeline. Maybe you could set up a new thread ... perhaps 'Avro Canada Survives'?
 
I think the real tragedy of the Avro Arrow was the loss of the Orenda Iroquois. It had enormous military and civil potential (the French wanted 300 to power the Mirage IV bomber).

At the time of the Arrow's demise, Avro was planning a number of civil projects including a B-727 type trijet. We'll never know if any of these would have been feasible, but we're left with a great "what-if". Diefenbaker's handling of the matter could not have been more destructive or incompetent. I suspect that a Liberal government would have cancelled the Arrow as well but they would have dealt with the matter much more intelligently - perhaps buy the initial production batch of 36 aircraft or made loans or loan guarantees to ease Avro's transition to civil production. I remember one journalist said we had to cancel the Arrow before it scared us to death; maybe the project was just too big, too daring, for a small-minded country.
 
Arrow wouldn't be obsolete if it gets a look-down shoot-down radar-missile combination.

We spool back and see AI.18+Red Dean or Red Hebe or some other new AAM intigrated, then we know such capability is a potential upgrade starting development in the early 60's. Keeping this viable into the 70's.
When arguably the final version would carry the new FMICW set and a monopulse seeker equipped AAM.

So we'd have a life cycle of the aircraft and presumably a successor program in the late 60’s.

Mirroring in some degree that of the Su 22 and Mig 25.
 
Flying Sorcerer said:
suspect that a Liberal government would have cancelled the Arrow as well but they would have dealt with the matter much more intelligently - perhaps buy the initial production batch of 36 aircraft or made loans or loan guarantees to ease Avro's transition to civil production
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I don’t know about that. Pearson’s industrial policy around military purchase doesn’t seem to be much better than Diefenbaker’s. Though perhaps less hesitant.
 
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ArtosStark said:
I don’t know about that. Pearson’s industrial policy around military purchase doesn’t seem to be much better than Deifenbaker’s. Though perhaps less hesitant.
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My nderstanding of Pearson's policy is that he realized Defenbaker axed the arrow and use the arrow fund to by the Bomac missile which tuend out to be a shit Idea, then Pearson use whatever fund that's left with some additional budget to by F-101B form the states
 
Not my understanding exactly.

Though the Arrow has been what we remember since then, the big debate at the time was around the Bomarc. The ideological, political and financial issues around hosting Bomarc on Canadian soil, which the US had been pushing for for a while, had been extensively debated. It was generally understood that Canada probably couldn’t afford both the Arrow and the Bomarc programs at the same time. But the need to accept Bomarc was becoming more and more broadly accepted by both sides of the political divide. What ended up ending Diefenbaker was, in many ways, his hesitancy on the Bomarc issue (annoying those who felt it was needed) before agreeing to it (which annoyed those opposed to it). The loss of the Arrow was more of a bitter afterthought at the time.

Pearson didn’t like nukes but he believed that the Bomarc was necessary due to treaty and defence requirements regardless. Had he been in power already I am not sure he would have done any different. He may well have done the same thing earlier.
 
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