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Arsenal de l'aéronautique: built prototypes and unbuilt projects

hesham

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From Le Fana 197,

here is the Arsenal VG.20 Project drawing.
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
For the VG.70 (not jet) project,I agree with you my dear,and for ASM.6,may
be it was a sailplane project ?,I don't know.
From Le Fana 198,

here is the VG.40 & VG.50 drawings,and a paint for VG.70,not jet one as a Project.
 

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Nick Sumner

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Google Translate

"The VG 70 seems to have been the first, since his study began in June 1939. Lighter than the VG 33 (2500 kg) he would have owned a wing of the same size (10.8 m) but larger area (15 m2 instead of 14). Armed with a cannon and two machine guns he would have, with a Hispano 12 Y-51 of 1000 hp, passed 600 km / h."

The VG 70 - Engine? looks like an inverted 'V'.
 

Deltafan

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Nick Sumner said:
Google Translate

"The VG 70 seems to have been the first, since his study began in June 1939. Lighter than the VG 33 (2500 kg) he would have owned a wing of the same size (10.8 m) but larger area (15 m2 instead of 14). Armed with a cannon and two machine guns he would have, with a Hispano 12 Y-51 of 1000 hp, passed 600 km / h."

The VG 70 - Engine? looks like an inverted 'V'.
???

I am not sure to good understand your question, but

The text says that the VG 70 had as engine a Hispano-Suiza 12 Y-51 of 1000 hp. It was a french, inverted V, water-cooled, in line, 12-cylinders engine
 

Nick Sumner

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I thought the HS 12Y was an upright V? The drawing looks like an inverted V.
 

Deltafan

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Nick Sumner said:
I thought the HS 12Y was an upright V? The drawing looks like an inverted V.
You are right, I am wrong...

http://jn.passieux.free.fr/html/Hispano_Suiza_12Y.php

After 20 years to read, it's time for me to know that... I was so sure that it was an inverted V (because of the high of the propellers) that I never checked and even never seen on photos that it was a V... Even when i read that the gun was "between the cylinders"... :-[
 

Nick Sumner

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I don't know of any French inverted 'V' engines but Arsenal used Jumo 213s on the He 274 prototype. Was the VG70 a late war or post war design featuring the Jumo 213?
 

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Nick Sumner said:
I don't know of any French inverted 'V' engines but Arsenal used Jumo 213s on the He 274 prototype. Was the VG70 a late war or post war design featuring the Jumo 213?
I note that the 'VG 70' sideview in Reply #41 looks very much like the VG 60 in Reply #42. Is it possible that the Le Fana author has conflated the two?

I have the VG 70 as a Jumo 004-powered VG 60 derivative (work beginning in September 1944). The VG 60 was, initially to have an 'upright' Hispano (first HS 12Y-51, then HS 12Z). However, the VG 60's post-war (1946?) incarnation was, indeed, to be powered by an inverted V-12 Arsenal 12H (Jumo 213E).
 

hesham

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Apophenia said:
I note that the 'VG 70' sideview in Reply #41 looks very much like the VG 60 in Reply #42. Is it possible that the Le Fana author has conflated the two?
Maybe they had the same frame,but different engine my dear Apophenia.
 

Deltafan

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Hi,

From the two books Les avions de combat français 1944-1960 part I (Cuny) Docavia/Larivière N°28 and French Secret Projects 1 (Carbonel) Crecy :

-VG-60 : project from May 1945, with a Junkers Jumo 213E 1750 hp. Only project, not built. The VG-60 drawings, in Cuny 1944-60 and Carbonel FSP 1, look like the VG-70 from reply 41.

-VG-70 : postwar jet project from 1944-45 ("the Liberation" of France) with Jumo 004. Built, flown.



I have too an article from the french author CJE (Christian-Jacques Ehrengart, in Aero-Journal N° 15, April-May 2010) :

-VG 70 : as in Le Fana : project from June 1939 of a lightened VG 33 with a HS 12Y51. Not built.



We can see too that, in reply 42, the last drawing (a jet) is named VG-60, but the text below speaks only of a VG-70 with jet engine (not of a VG 60).



I understand that :

-there were two VG-70 : a project from June 1939 and a flying postwar jet.

-in the replies 41 and 42 the names of the VG-60 drawing and the VG-70 drawing are inverted.

So :

-In reply 41, the drawing named VG 70 is the VG 60 with Jumo 213E.

-In reply 42, the drawing named VG 60 is the postwar VG 70 jet (and in accordance with the text Under the drawing).

-In reply 41, the separate text is about the VG 70 12Y51 of 1939, not about one of the 3 drawn VG above (40, 50, 60) and not about the postwar VG 70 jet of reply 42.




Sorry for my bad English. I hope to be clear...
 

hesham

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that's right my dear Deltafan,

there was two VG.70 designs.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Initial plan?

http://alternathistory.com/tyazhelyi-istrebitel-arsenal-vb-10-frantsiya

Excellent site.
https://oldmachinepress.com/2012/09/28/arsenal-vb-10-heavy-interceptor/

Prototype had a flush canopy.
 

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blackkite

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Hi!

https://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/arsenal_de_l_aeronautique.pdf

Justo-san's amazing contribution.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8414.0;attach=86672;image

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8414.0
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
in the Trait d'Union magazine,there is many unknown aircraft and projects to
Arsenal company,such as; ASM.6 may be light aircraft,VG.50 bomber,VG.70
experimental aircraft with propeller (not jet) and VGU.40 a helicopter project,
has anyone the Issue 134 to tell us about them.
The ASM.6 was a jet Project of 1946,but there was unknown Project called ARS-01
of 1936,any idea ?.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
hesham said:
in the Trait d'Union magazine,there is many unknown aircraft and projects to
Arsenal company,such as; ASM.6 may be light aircraft,VG.50 bomber,VG.70
experimental aircraft with propeller (not jet) and VGU.40 a helicopter project,
has anyone the Issue 134 to tell us about them.
The ASM.6 was a jet Project of 1946,but there was unknown Project called ARS-01
of 1936,any idea ?.
Anther mystery in my files,

ARS-60 of 1939,maybe co-operation aircraft Project ?.
 

Apophenia

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Are these taken from ACAM's Liste des projets Messier de 1927 à 1944?
-- http://www.acam.asso.fr/histo/premiers_equipements6.php

Based on the dates, I would takes these to be a clipped form of designations. So the quoted 'ARS-01' would refer to the 1936 Arsenal VG 30-01 prototype/flying mockup; the 'ARS-60' to the Oct 1939 VG 60 project (turbocharged HS.12Y-51).

BTW, that ACAM list seems to cover individual Messier contracts. So, "N° Projet" refers to specific contracts or components rather than specific undercarriage designations (which would explain why there are so many multiple listings for the same Arsenal types).

No idea on you ASM.6 ... but that's a very odd designation style for Ars.Aéro!
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Apophenia for remember me,

but ARS-01 meant VG 30-01,that's so weird,and for the ASM.6,it was a Project mentioned in TU
magazine,so maybe the ARS-01 was the beginning for this series ?.
 

Apophenia

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ARS was just an abbreviation for the Arsenal de l'aéronautique (or, from 1934-1936, the Arsenal du matériel aérien). As a designation, it was not used by the pre-war, state-owned Arsenal de l'aéronautique. But it was applied by the post-war, privitized 'Ars.Aéro' to research aircraft (eg the Ars 1301 delta) and missile projects (eg the Ars 5201 ATM). Note that the majority of such Ars designations are in the 4-digits range.

Still no clue about the ASM.6 mentioned by TU ... it doesn't seem to fit the Ars.Aéro designation pattern. Just by the letters, it is tempting to suggest a French military designation for a post-war missile study ... eg: anti-sous-marins or even air-sol moyenne. Again, I see no reason to assume a sequential connection between ACAM's mention of an 'ARS-01' and TU's 'ASM.6'.
 

hesham

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OK my dear Apophenia,

and what was Arsenal AEA ?.
 

Apophenia

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hesham said:
... what was Arsenal AEA ?.
Usually, 'Arsenal AEA' is seen as a later form of corporate identity. I have no clue as to what ACAM is referring to circa 1941.
 

hesham

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Maybe unknown Project.
 

hesham

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OK my dear Apophenia,

but in this site they talk about aircraft,so they didn't mention the name of the airplane.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
Thank you my dear Apophenia for remember me,

but ARS-01 meant VG 30-01,that's so weird,and for the ASM.6,it was a Project mentioned in TU
magazine,so maybe the ARS-01 was the beginning for this series ?.
I think I was right,and the change in prefix by add letter "M",it's for exploration Maritime aircraft.
 

hesham

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Please ,I heard that there was those Arsenal designations VB.11,VB.12 & VB.14,we know an
odd designation in this series,called VB.16,who can explain that ?.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
Please ,I heard that there was those Arsenal designations VB.11,VB.12 & VB.14,we know an
odd designation in this series,called VB.16,who can explain that ?.
the source;

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/List_of_aircraft_(0-A).html
 

Deltafan

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hesham said:
hesham said:
Please ,I heard that there was those Arsenal designations VB.11,VB.12 & VB.14,we know an
odd designation in this series,called VB.16,who can explain that ?.
the source;

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/List_of_aircraft_(0-A).html
Well, AFAIK (after searching) :

-No VB 11, 12 or 14 were known before on SecretProjects (on this topic and on the designation topic about Arsenal). There is Nothing too in the books of Cuny or Carbonel (or in my own files)

-The VB 16 designation comes from an article in Le Fana de l'aviation N°247 (June 1990) about the VB 10. It's only said that this VB 16 was "a(n unknown) derivative" of the VB 15.


Your source gives the VB 11, 12 and 14 (and absolutely nothing more about these designations). But in the source of your source (to click on the little blue "[98]" in the Arsenal line of your link) we find the Hydroretro page about Arsenal and there are no VB 11, 12 and 14 (or 16) in it. Then, the question is : from where come actually these unknown designations that we can see in your link ?


And your link or Hydroretro doesn't say anything about the well known (at least on SecretProjects) VB 15.


I can only say that as "VB" (and if there were a 12 and a 14, there was maybe a 13 too, except for superstition problems), they were probably too planes with "engines mounted in tandem inside the fuselage, driving co-axial propellers in the nose". The problem is then what were the engines and I don't have the answer. Maybe somebody else has.
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Deltafan,

but we must search good before confirm they were not existed.
 

Deltafan

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I Don't know if the VB 11, 12 or 14 projects existed. The problem is that your source doesn't give the good primary source from where it found these désignations.

But maybe we'll find these désignations again, elsewhere in the future.
 

hesham

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From Aviation magazine Inter. 1967,

was this Arsenal VB.11 a real Project ?.
 
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hesham

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hesham said:
Please ,I heard that there was those Arsenal designations VB.11,VB.12 & VB.14,we know an
odd designation in this series,called VB.16,who can explain that ?.
the source;

From TU and La Fana,the VB.10 variants and unknown Projects;

- VB 16: name adopted for a variant of which everything is currently unknown

- VB 10 Projects with armored fuselage (unknown name)

- VB 10 Project with Hispano 24 Z character (unknown denomination)

- Project with radiators placed in aft fuselage with fan driven by the rear engine

- Naval variant ordered in two prototype copies by the Navy on December 31, 1944 [Marché 466 EMG / Aéro],
but order canceled on May 25, 1945 in favor of the onboard SE 580

- Variants of photographic recognition with cameras in the rear of the fuselage with where without fuel in this
part of the cell (missions to long or short distance), Armament was reduced to 20 mm guns
 

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The Arsenal VG. 60 is one of my all time favorite French projects.

Now there is this website here which mentions some variants:

However, I have never heard of any of these variants. Searches have brought up nothing. Are these real, or jest theoretical/fantasy developments?
 
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