Argentinian Unbuilt Projects

Roland55

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All news regarding the Ia.58C are good news (obviously, since there is not much about it :rolleyes:)

On this 2x1 article (First flight of the Pampa and Presentation of the IA.58C) there is quite a bit about the rare prototype and its beginnings. (given the fact that the page protects all text and images from being copied, ill make the translation)

First Flight of the IA-63 Pampa trainer

On October 10th 1984 at 12hs the IA-63 Pampa serial EX-01 (first prototype) took its maiden flight from the airstrip at the Military Aviation school, commanded by ViceComodoro Genaro Mario Sciola in the back seat, while on the forward sea there was Mayor Horacio Armando Orefice. The IA-63 was escorted by a Morane Saulnier 760 "Paris" during the whole flight. The ceremony was preceded by the Chief of The Air Force, Brig My. Crespo and the Governor of the procure, Dr. Angeloz in between other military and Civilian Authorities.

Presentation of the IA-58C

At the same time that the Pampa took its maiden flight, the formal presentation of the IA-58C (Charly or Charlie, i like the first one best) was taking place.

The IA-58C was the third modification of the Original IA-58A (Alfa or Alpha) to improve in things like firepower and in certain aspects observed by pilots who flew the original type during the recent war with the Uk. The first modification (and perhaps the most noticeable one) was the elimination of the forward position, and in its place a 30mm DEFA cannon its added along with its ammo container, the two 20mm HISPANO SUIZA cannons are retained, it could also carry 2 MARTIN PESCADOR or MATRA MAGIC missiles, two of the four machine guns were removed and the remaining 2 were left mostly for training. Its Technical characteristics were similar to the original Alpha/Alfa model, but its aerodynamic penetration was higher, making it more maneuverable and agile.

The basis of the modification was to adapt the Pucara for Air-Air combat, this was done with the inclusion of AAMs and a proper HUD (things that the Series IA-58A aircraft lacked), Its payload capacity also rose to 1600Kg including bombs, rockets and missiles. The plane also saw the addition of RWR, and Heat dissipators to reduce its IR image to Heat seeking missiles.

In terms of avionics, the aircraft received an Omega/VLF system, an altimeter radar for navigation, NOE (Map of earth) for following the topographic profile of the zone, this was of great help in defended zones. In terms of communications HF-VHF-FM-AM satisfied all the tactical needs of communications with friendly surface forces and with Command in bases. Another 2 things that were added were a Garret Air conditioner and a Photo Sonics camera.

Today this aircraft its exposed in the "Area Material Rio Cuarto", who was presented time after being restored during the Unit's 75 Anniversary.
 

Erdosain

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Supposedly this would be a VLJ variant of the IA-63 Pampa, made at the request of a foreign millionaire by LMAASA in collaboration with the Aeronautical University Institute (IUA) of the Argentine Air Force (FAA).

There is not much information about it or official data to prove its veracity

242869704_4776460985707123_1183526229088931312_n.jpg
 

blockhaj

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Today June 16, 2020 marks the 70th anniversary of the first flight of the prototype of the supersonic interceptor fighter I.Ae 33 Pulqui II E-1 The same was carried out on the Runway of the Military School of Parachuting, on June 16, 1950 at controls of Captain Edmundo Weiss The plane in question was equipped with a Rolls Royce "Nene" engine with a takeoff thrust of 2300 kg with a maximum speed of 1,040 K / Hs This same aircraft was presented on February 8, 1951 in the Aeropark before the then President General Juan Domingo Perón and the Prince Consort of the Netherlands being its pilot Kurt Tank Source FMA Historical Book
Sorry for necroing an old message, but i wonder what source the name E-1 comes from? E-1 kind of makes sense as it is the first Pulqui II to fly, but it is also the second prototype. Was the third prototype called E-2 etc? Which book is the "FMA Historical Book"?
 

blockhaj

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I started digging myself and found this: https://archive.org/stream/alan_147/SAFO 144_djvu.txt
If this text is correct then most books and sources about the Pulqui II are incorrect, with only 4 complete prototypes being made.
  1. E-1- first prototype, armed with four 20 mm MG-151 cannons. First flight: June 16, 1950. Crashed: May 1951.
  2. E-2 - second prototype, initially unarmed and planned for static tests but was later modified to become flight worthy when the E-3 crashed in 1952. The modification was done in 1953 and included: first fitting of the planned armament of four 20 mm HS 804 cannons, one wing fence per wing, four trakes on the tail, air brakes, increased fuel capacity from 2,000 to 3,000 liters (as per E-3), strengthened landing gear (as per E-3), in-flight adjustable rudder (as per E-3). This modification is what i believe most people call "prototype 04" and the "prototype 02m" (modified), etc. Crashed 1956.
  3. E-3 - third prototype, unarmed. Modifications from E-1: increased fuel capacity (2,000 to 3,000 liters), strengthened landing gear, in-flight adjustable rudder. First flight: early 1952. Crashed october 1952.
  4. E-4 - fourth prototype, never completed with parts going into the E-5.
  5. E-5 - fifth prototype, completed in 1959 using parts from E-4 and E-6 as the final Pulqui II. It is called "Pulqui IIe" at times but was equal to the final E-2 but without armament. First flight: May 1960. Given to "Museo Nacional de Aeronáutica de Argentina" at the end of 1960.
  6. E-6 - sixth prototype, never completed with parts going into the E-5.
 

iverson

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Here is a drawing of the Horten I.Ae.48 Mach-2.2 all-weather fighter with a pair of 11,000 lb-st (5000 kg-st) Rolls-Royce Avon turbojets mounted in nacelles on underwing pylons. The wingspan was about 30 ft (9 m) and maximum takeoff weight was 37,000 lb (16,800 kg). The crew reportedly sat in tandem, but the form of the drawings and wind-tunnel models that I have seen online makes the side-by-side arrangement shown seem more likely.
 

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Erdosain

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Here is a drawing of the Horten I.Ae.48 Mach-2.2 all-weather fighter with a pair of 11,000 lb-st (5000 kg-st) Rolls-Royce Avon turbojets mounted in nacelles on underwing pylons. The wingspan was about 30 ft (9 m) and maximum takeoff weight was 37,000 lb (16,800 kg). The crew reportedly sat in tandem, but the form of the drawings and wind-tunnel models that I have seen online makes the side-by-side arrangement shown seem more likely.
This is a fan art, there was never a side-by-side two-seater IA-48. In the official drawings the IA-48 always had a tandem configuration. I saw the wind tunnel model and it is a tandem configuration, not side by side.

54.jpg

IA-48 Modelo Tunel_01.jpg

IA-48 Modelo Tunel_02.jpg
 
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Erdosain

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Today June 16, 2020 marks the 70th anniversary of the first flight of the prototype of the supersonic interceptor fighter I.Ae 33 Pulqui II E-1 The same was carried out on the Runway of the Military School of Parachuting, on June 16, 1950 at controls of Captain Edmundo Weiss The plane in question was equipped with a Rolls Royce "Nene" engine with a takeoff thrust of 2300 kg with a maximum speed of 1,040 K / Hs This same aircraft was presented on February 8, 1951 in the Aeropark before the then President General Juan Domingo Perón and the Prince Consort of the Netherlands being its pilot Kurt Tank Source FMA Historical Book
Sorry for necroing an old message, but i wonder what source the name E-1 comes from? E-1 kind of makes sense as it is the first Pulqui II to fly, but it is also the second prototype. Was the third prototype called E-2 etc? Which book is the "FMA Historical Book"?
I understand that the correct designation was I.Ae.33 Pulqui II-E-1 (V1) and so on.
The "E" was for Experimental, the V for Versuchsmuster, which I suppose was the German word for Experimental.

The historical book of the FMA is composed of two volumes, volume I with 288 pages and volume II with 282 pages, which compile all the historical dates and milestones of the FMA from its foundation until 1985. Actually it is titled " Historical Book of the Areá Material Córdoba "

Libro Historico AMC tapa.jpg

Libro Historico AMC.jpg
 

Erdosain

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Comencé a investigar y encontré esto: https://archive.org/stream/alan_147/SAFO 144_djvu.txt
Si este texto es correcto, la mayoría de los libros y fuentes sobre el Pulqui II son incorrectos, y solo se han realizado 4 prototipos completos.
  1. E-1 : primer prototipo, armado con cuatro cañones MG-151 de 20 mm. Primer vuelo: 16 de junio de 1950. Se estrelló: mayo de 1951.
  2. E-2 : segundo prototipo, inicialmente desarmado y planeado para pruebas estáticas, pero luego se modificó para convertirse en digno de vuelo cuando el E-3 se estrelló en 1952. La modificación se realizó en 1953 e incluyó: primer montaje del armamento planeado de cuatro 20 mm Cañones HS 804, una valla de ala por ala, cuatro orugas en la cola, frenos de aire, mayor capacidad de combustible de 2.000 a 3.000 litros (según E-3), tren de aterrizaje reforzado (según E-3), ajustable en vuelo timón (según E-3). Esta modificación es lo que creo que la mayoría de la gente llama "prototipo 04" y el "prototipo 02m" (modificado), etc. Se estrelló en 1956.
  3. E-3 : tercer prototipo, desarmado. Modificaciones de E-1: mayor capacidad de combustible (2.000 a 3.000 litros), tren de aterrizaje reforzado, timón ajustable en vuelo. Primer vuelo: principios de 1952. Se estrelló en octubre de 1952.
  4. E-4 : cuarto prototipo, nunca completado con piezas en la E-5.
  5. E-5 - quinto prototipo, completado en 1959 usando partes de E-4 y E-6 como el Pulqui II final. A veces se le llama "Pulqui IIe" pero era igual al E-2 final pero sin armamento. Primer vuelo: mayo de 1960. Dado al "Museo Nacional de Aeronáutica de Argentina" a fines de 1960.
  6. E-6 : sexto prototipo, nunca completado con piezas en la E-5.
Esa lista esta mal

Había dos planeadores del Pulqui II y dos fuselajes para pruebas estáticas.
El segundo prototipo fue el I.Ae.33 Pulqui II-E-2: Primer vuelo el 14 de septiembre de 1951
El primer vuelo del tercer prototipo fue el 18 de julio de 1952. El tercer prototipo probó en tierra y en el aire los cañones de 20 mm, no lo recuerdo bien pero creo que fue el primero en llevar cañones.

Otro autor, Atilio Marino, dijo que solo había cuatro prototipos, pero, según él, el error es que el primer prototipo, después de ser modificado extensamente, se confunde con un segundo prototipo.

El problema es que las FMA en ese momento no registraban los prototipos. Hay muchos datos que se perdieron o no se registraron. Por ejemplo, a la fecha no se sabe con certeza cuántos I.Ae.35 Huanquero se construyeron y los números de serie correspondientes a cada uno.
 

riggerrob

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Here is a drawing of the Horten I.Ae.48 Mach-2.2 all-weather fighter with a pair of 11,000 lb-st (5000 kg-st) Rolls-Royce Avon turbojets mounted in nacelles on underwing pylons. The wingspan was about 30 ft (9 m) and maximum takeoff weight was 37,000 lb (16,800 kg). The crew reportedly sat in tandem, but the form of the drawings and wind-tunnel models that I have seen online makes the side-by-side arrangement shown seem more likely.
This is a fan art, there was never a side-by-side two-seater IA-48. In the official drawings the IA-48 always had a tandem configuration. I saw the wind tunnel model and it is a tandem configuration, not side by side.

View attachment 667401

View attachment 667414

View attachment 667415

A beautiful piece of wooden sculpture!
 

iverson

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This is a fan art, there was never a side-by-side two-seater IA-48. In the official drawings the IA-48 always had a tandem configuration. I saw the wind tunnel model and it is a tandem configuration, not side by side.
While I will always bow to superior knowledge, I reject the uncharitable term "fan art". I used the information that I had available at the time when I created the drawing, which included the wooden model you show and the first drawing attached below. Both the model and the plan still appear to represent a side-by-side seating arrangement to my untutored eye. The second attached image is a somewhat less official-looking drawing of the tandem configuration that I found a decade or so later. It looks rather different.
 

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blockhaj

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Comencé a investigar y encontré esto: https://archive.org/stream/alan_147/SAFO 144_djvu.txt
Si este texto es correcto, la mayoría de los libros y fuentes sobre el Pulqui II son incorrectos, y solo se han realizado 4 prototipos completos.
  1. E-1 : primer prototipo, armado con cuatro cañones MG-151 de 20 mm. Primer vuelo: 16 de junio de 1950. Se estrelló: mayo de 1951.
  2. E-2 : segundo prototipo, inicialmente desarmado y planeado para pruebas estáticas, pero luego se modificó para convertirse en digno de vuelo cuando el E-3 se estrelló en 1952. La modificación se realizó en 1953 e incluyó: primer montaje del armamento planeado de cuatro 20 mm Cañones HS 804, una valla de ala por ala, cuatro orugas en la cola, frenos de aire, mayor capacidad de combustible de 2.000 a 3.000 litros (según E-3), tren de aterrizaje reforzado (según E-3), ajustable en vuelo timón (según E-3). Esta modificación es lo que creo que la mayoría de la gente llama "prototipo 04" y el "prototipo 02m" (modificado), etc. Se estrelló en 1956.
  3. E-3 : tercer prototipo, desarmado. Modificaciones de E-1: mayor capacidad de combustible (2.000 a 3.000 litros), tren de aterrizaje reforzado, timón ajustable en vuelo. Primer vuelo: principios de 1952. Se estrelló en octubre de 1952.
  4. E-4 : cuarto prototipo, nunca completado con piezas en la E-5.
  5. E-5 - quinto prototipo, completado en 1959 usando partes de E-4 y E-6 como el Pulqui II final. A veces se le llama "Pulqui IIe" pero era igual al E-2 final pero sin armamento. Primer vuelo: mayo de 1960. Dado al "Museo Nacional de Aeronáutica de Argentina" a fines de 1960.
  6. E-6 : sexto prototipo, nunca completado con piezas en la E-5.
Esa lista esta mal

Había dos planeadores del Pulqui II y dos fuselajes para pruebas estáticas.
El segundo prototipo fue el I.Ae.33 Pulqui II-E-2: Primer vuelo el 14 de septiembre de 1951
El primer vuelo del tercer prototipo fue el 18 de julio de 1952. El tercer prototipo probó en tierra y en el aire los cañones de 20 mm, no lo recuerdo bien pero creo que fue el primero en llevar cañones.

Otro autor, Atilio Marino, dijo que solo había cuatro prototipos, pero, según él, el error es que el primer prototipo, después de ser modificado extensamente, se confunde con un segundo prototipo.

El problema es que las FMA en ese momento no registraban los prototipos. Hay muchos datos que se perdieron o no se registraron. Por ejemplo, a la fecha no se sabe con certeza cuántos I.Ae.35 Huanquero se construyeron y los números de serie correspondientes a cada uno.
Did any of the creators ever write a book on the subject? Also, we should move to this thread: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/pulqui-ii.3386/#post-496302
 

Erdosain

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This is a fan art, there was never a side-by-side two-seater IA-48. In the official drawings the IA-48 always had a tandem configuration. I saw the wind tunnel model and it is a tandem configuration, not side by side.
While I will always bow to superior knowledge, I reject the uncharitable term "fan art". I used the information that I had available at the time when I created the drawing, which included the wooden model you show and the first drawing attached below. Both the model and the plan still appear to represent a side-by-side seating arrangement to my untutored eye. The second attached image is a somewhat less official-looking drawing of the tandem configuration that I found a decade or so later. It looks rather different.
IA-48 Detalle Cabina.jpg

fmaia48planoie7.jpg

IA-48_0.jpg

56.jpg
 

Erdosain

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I would say it would be tandem seating, the wingspan is only 7 metres so although the fuselage looks 'fat' it is actually probably about 1.5 metres in diameter (based off a rough scaling estimate).

The digital file of the drawing is not of good quality.

In red the stations of the fuselage and in black the approximate radius in each station according to the table Sections of the Fuselage (SECC. del FUSEL.), which does not read well due to its low quality.

IA-48 Detalle Cabina.jpg


IA-48 estaciones fuselaje.jpg
 

Erdosain

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Project I.A.59 (Dr Reimar Hörten) - Assault aircraft and light transport

Regional transport jet aircraft for short distances, in the 17 to 25 tn category, designed to operate aerodromes with runways of 1000 m in length.

There was going to be a civil and a military version. The military one was equipped with a rear loading ramp.

A significant detail is the original arrangement of the power plants on the wings, obtaining a distance from the ground that reduces the possibility of suction of foreign bodies, in addition to achieving a greater margin of centering of the aircraft with different load conditions by improving the location. center of gravity.

This configuration was chosen over that of a high-wing aircraft after a careful comparison between the two configurations.

Text source: "Military Aircraft Factory - Chronicles and Testimonies" by Ángel César Arreguez

@RengelGonzalo

FMA IA-59.jpg


Civil Variant
FMA IA-59 version civil.jpg


Military Variant
FMA IA-59 version militar.jpg

high-wing configuration
FMA IA-59 version ala alta.jpg


View: https://twitter.com/RengelGonzalo/status/1458781834398085126
 
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