Argentinian Unbuilt Projects

Roland55

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. Most impressively is the contract of a large amount of polish technicians, one of the best known being R. Dyrgalla (or Czekalski), who was behind the first Argentine Aerial missile, The Tabano

Ironically, it seems that the Tabano project was dropped mainly because of over-expectations from German engineers...
But the Tabano wasn't made by them... nor related to them, was made mostly by polish technicians that previously worked on the Enzian while in the Uk, the whole reason it died its...a bit uncertain to be fair, it was a project so secret it only was made known by Dyrgalla's books (thing that kinda need to search for as there could be a lot we dont know), Things like political pressure, unsatisfactory results, or just an overall lack of aircraft that could carry it could have terminated the project. (remember that it was only tested on the Calquin).
 

Dilandu

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But the Tabano wasn't made by them... nor related to them, was made mostly by polish technicians that previously worked on the Enzian while in the Uk, the whole reason it died its...a bit uncertain to be fair, it was a project so secret it only was made known by Dyrgalla's books (thing that kinda need to search for as there could be a lot we dont know), Things like political pressure, unsatisfactory results, or just an overall lack of aircraft that could carry it could have terminated the project. (remember that it was only tested on the Calquin).
I wasn't clear enough; I meant, that the project was dropped because German engineers arrived, and Argentinean expected them to be much more competent than Dyrgalla. Apparently, they weren't, because the best they were able to suggest was the local production of German WW2-era rockets and missiles.
 

riggerrob

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View attachment 660653
Concept art for the ASW version of the IA-50 Guarani II, note the extended tail and "Cheek" mounted gun pods.
The extended tail contains a Magnetic Anomaly Detector, which senses subtle changes in the earth's magnetic field caused by metal hulls of submarines.
The "Cheek" mounted gun pods are used to kill deck crew firing AAA at ASW airplanes.
 

Roland55

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But the Tabano wasn't made by them... nor related to them, was made mostly by polish technicians that previously worked on the Enzian while in the Uk, the whole reason it died its...a bit uncertain to be fair, it was a project so secret it only was made known by Dyrgalla's books (thing that kinda need to search for as there could be a lot we dont know), Things like political pressure, unsatisfactory results, or just an overall lack of aircraft that could carry it could have terminated the project. (remember that it was only tested on the Calquin).
I wasn't clear enough; I meant, that the project was dropped because German engineers arrived, and Argentinean expected them to be much more competent than Dyrgalla. Apparently, they weren't, because the best they were able to suggest was the local production of German WW2-era rockets and missiles.
But most germans engineers (like the polish ones) arrived in 1947, even Dyrgalla was contracted at the same time, much like the Tabano, other options were analyzed (like the V-1 and the PAT-1 guided bomb used from Lancasters) but those were purely german/Argentine driven projects, while the tabano was completely different, starting the project way earlier than the rest in 1947 and ending in the mid 50s, not by german pressure but regarding more aspects of its use (specially considering that the Calquin was...beginning to show age and there wasn't another aircraft that could carry it, Meteors couldn't do it, G.55s couldn't do it, it wouldn't make sense to have it on a bomber ether..).

It doesn't really make a lot of sense considering that the Tabano is inspired in a german project, and by the 50s it was being tested, with some success in San Jose de Las Salinas, and even repeating the tests several times, up to the point with live Warheads against aerial targets (claimed).
 

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Roland55

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Two for the price of one!!
A simulator for the Oerlikon 20mm AA cannon
1KReXyl.jpg
And a bit more interesting and (at least for me) fascinating, its this automated version of the same gun.
Captura de pantalla 2021-07-19 a la(s) 04.22.43.png
Argentina received a bit over 200 of this guns for free from Switzerland, all examples were brand new and their use can be seen a lot for training and on board some M113s for AA and support fire.

Seeing this demonstrator (along its fire director) its something that actually seems pretty straight forward, much like the Dardo II, a kit to convert something that on its own wouldn't perform efficiently on todays warfare into something that could offer a lot more. I really see a system like this with some changes (more ammo capacity and maybe a simpler platform for easier transport) as a decent Air Defense system at a really low cost.
 
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foto005.jpg


foto006.jpg


foto007.jpg
 

Erdosain

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Dos Décadas de Producción de la Fabrica Militar de Aviones
Two Decades of Production of the Military Aircraft Factory


Revista Nacional de Aeronáutica, Números correspondientes a los meses de Junio y Julio 1962.
National Aeronautical Magazine - June and July of 1962.


 

Apophenia

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So, beyond the FMA-related title and Facebook's "This content isn't available right now..." message, what was being communicated there?
 

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Roland55

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14102637_10154096868027982_1783761498995856288_n.jpg 14102473_10154096865152982_8331329454638441368_n.jpg
Metallic model of the IA-60 advanced trainer

In front (and behind) of it there is a model (also made of metal of the Pulqui 1 & 2), interestingly i have a pretty similar example of the Pulqui 1 model gifted to my Grandpa by FMA officials for his work in the plane.
image1-3.jpg
 

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Roland55

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78398729_10157161469957982_6238428869179736064_n.jpg
A recently disassembled Ia.58A in an interesting livery...this was one of the 2 examples that were sold to Mauritania, sadly for FMA a coup in Mauritania Halted and cancelled the sale for the aircraft. The 2 examples were absorbed/Purchased along another deal for The Argentine Air force, interestingly they conserved their livery, making them the only 2 units to ever use a desert camo. ykcwW.jpg

Captura de pantalla 2021-08-03 a la(s) 21.33.20.png

Complete example with the Mauritanian Camo
 

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Something that i rarely seen being mentioned or covered are the upgrades of the Skyhawk family, some are well known, like the replacement of the cannons or the upgrade of navigational equipment, but in between this there were "lesser known" works to give them Countermeasures, more specifically RWR and Chaff/Flares. The only 2 models who received them were a certain number of Naval A-4Qs and also 2 Air Force A-4Cs with an indigenous RWR. The results of the Navy's testing is unknown, but the results of the Air Force were not satisfactory, thus the remaining fleet did not get the upgrade.
Copia de 9ba83323b6425df320e0f16f3145786bo.jpg
In the pic there is A-4Q "309" with a the RWR being clearly visible.
 

Erdosain

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In my opinion, “Las Alas de Perón” has to be the most comprehensive book about the Golden age of Argentinian aviation industry.
Llevo esperando trece años a que aparezca un editor con el suficiente... "right stuff" para hacer justicia al extraordinario trabajo de Burzaco, publicando sus libros en ingles.
Tan dificil y arriesgado seria hacer una edicion en Amazon-Kindle?
Es una cuestion de ideologia?.
Que problema puede haber en publicar un trabajo tan tecnico con background historico de todos conocido? yo no he encontrado ningun obstaculo a mis publicaciones en el mundo anglosajon.
Un saludo a todos y mis respeto por los demas autores.
I withdraw what I have said in my previous post, although they occupy a broader period of the FMA, all the books that I cite take as a reference to Burzaco's book for that period.

I think that a corrected reissue is necessary, removing some myths and investigating projects that were recently released.

Unfortunately Alas de Peron is sold out and cannot be found in bookstores or on the web.

Luckily I have both editions of Alas de Perón
 

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FMA IA-58C, Aeroespacio 437, January and February of 1984
 

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Erdosain

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FMA A-58C Pucará Charly
Aeroespacio 446, July -August 1985
 

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Richard N

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Pucará Fénix

In August (2019) Fuerza Aérea Argentina (FAA) had announced that its IA-58 Pucará turboprop would be withdrawn after 44 years. However, the force has decided that the aircraft will remain operational but in a new role.

During the ceremony of the aircraft’s deactivation at Reconquista airbase, held on October 4, the FAA presented the first “Pucará Fénix”, a revamped version of the Argentine-produced military aircraft. Instead of the attack function, the role of the aircraft will become border surveillance and patrolling operations.

To develop the Pucará Fénix (Phoenix), the Turbomeca Astazou engines were replaced by the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT-6A-62, which uses four-bladed propellers instead of three, and the aircraft received FLIR search sensors, synthetic aperture radar, targeting laser and satellite communication system.

The conversion of the Pucará Fénix was made by FAdeA (Fábrica Argentina de Aviones), former FMA (Fábrica Militar de Aviones), manufacturer that designed the Pucará. The Argentine military command still plans to modify two more aircraft soon and intends to keep the new version of Pucará in operation for another 15 or 20 years.
 

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Roland55

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The Fenix is going to get a pod that combines a radar and a FLIR Sensor (kinda like a designator pod). The first prototype of it was a simple container housing an AESA radar made by INVAP, it was seen being tested not long ago.

E0uTlNzWQA0gF2C.jpeg E0zd9iYWYAA1aNB.jpeg
For now the "Fenix" is keeping the internal weapons, although the idea of removing all armament was envisioned, the prototype still has both 20mm and the 4 machine guns. Much like the Super Tucano, it could still have some potential for COIN (after the upgrade of course).


And interestingly the Fenix its not the first time the Pucara changed engines folleto 5d.jpg
The IA.66
 

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The 1:10 scale model of the FMA IA-60 during the tests in the largest wind tunnel of the Aerodynamics Department of the Institute of Aeronautical and Space Research (IIAE)

Credits: FMA Archive via "Cartonero"

E8wXMymXEAYsRkM
 

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A bit of an interesting look at the original prototype of the IA.58, or A-X2/AX-02 as it was called, the design was different for the nose and its engines weren't the french we all know, they were American Garrett engines. its also interesting to note that the whole cockpit had a different design (guns were more exposed and protruded from the fuselage and the nose wasn't covered by a single piece cover like on the series aircraft. The engines were later changed for the series Astazou and the plane renamed AX-01

The reason of the change could be a better deal with France (who also supplied the Bastan for the Guarani II) or just that US made engines were subject to embargoes, were a bit lacking in performance compared to the french ones....who knows?
296BC25CD.jpg
The pic is from the aircraft second presentation, behind it is the last Gloster Meteor to be overhauled in FMA.

Thankfully AX-02 survives, and we can find it in the Air museum, although i believe they dont have a series pucara to make a good comparison.
avc_00506889.jpg
 

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pometablava said:
Do you have a bit more info about the book
you mentions

That's your link:

;)

The direct link to the HUGE 25.8MB .pdf book :
http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/descarga/fma2008.pdf

Considering the file size and low speed of the connection, I would suggest right clicking the link and selecting "Save Link As" instead of attempting to open it in the browser.
Hello, does anybody still has access to this pdf ? It seems the server is down.
 

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pometablava said:
Do you have a bit more info about the book
you mentions

That's your link:

;)

The direct link to the HUGE 25.8MB .pdf book :
http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/descarga/fma2008.pdf

Considering the file size and low speed of the connection, I would suggest right clicking the link and selecting "Save Link As" instead of attempting to open it in the browser.
Hello, does anybody still has access to this pdf ? It seems the server is down.
Yes https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dW_tvLYwfbPqVVuvOp9itHOvUdn_BrGl/view?usp=sharing
 

S@lyut

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pometablava said:
Do you have a bit more info about the book
you mentions

That's your link:

;)

The direct link to the HUGE 25.8MB .pdf book :
http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/descarga/fma2008.pdf

Considering the file size and low speed of the connection, I would suggest right clicking the link and selecting "Save Link As" instead of attempting to open it in the browser.
Hello, does anybody still has access to this pdf ? It seems the server is down.
Yes https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dW_tvLYwfbPqVVuvOp9itHOvUdn_BrGl/view?usp=sharing
Awesome !!! Thank you very much !!!
 

Roland55

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I was going to post about the I.Ae.22DL prototypes, but i stumbled on this..
Copia de 227461885_544150573602913_8818674902881054865_n.jpg

As far as i know, its supposed to be a "battery pack" to help the aircraft start easily in places where power wouldn't be really available. Pretty nifty i say...if all the sudden you find yourself deployed in the middle of a jungle or desert.
 

Roland55

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Before the beloved I.Ae.22 "DL" there was...the FMA-21?...yes, the predecesor that lacked the I.Ae.XX designation was along the lines of a "testbed/demonstrator" rather than a prototype that was aimed for manufacture.

If you're familiar with the early/mid stages of the Argentine Army Air Corps (it wasn't air force yet), their first "modern" trainer was the North American NA-16, a low wing fixed landing gear prop that was used for training, Observation and as a light attack aircraft (thats a pretty recurring thing with trainers here).
Copia de e324b1da0154ce4e_large.jpeg

With the creation of the "Aerotechnical" institute in 1943, they started working on the replacement of NA-16s, due to the war limiting the amount of materials available for this work, it was decided to work with wood (much like DeHavilland). The aircraft wasn't built from the ground up, as the Institute was leased the NA-18, the demonstrator that was used to promote the NA-16 to the Air Corps (that was bought along the order...another recurring thing). The trainer was strip from its wings, landing gear and engine, and replaced with indigenous parts (engine was replaced by an I.Ae.16 "El Gaucho"). and the result was...this:
gNLS0eOa_2x.jpg
The New plane was designated FMA-21 and it first flew in 1943. it would be kept on service until 1948 (a year after the retirement of the NA-16s). The testing and working made on the FMA-21 would be later applied to the 22DL, but major changes would be seen as the later was more inclined to the design of the "Texan" trainer.
 

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Iba a publicar sobre los prototipos I.Ae.22DL, pero me encontré con esto ...
View attachment 663881

Hasta donde yo sé, se supone que es un "paquete de baterías" para ayudar al avión a arrancar fácilmente en lugares donde la energía no estaría realmente disponible. Bastante ingenioso, digo ... si de repente te encuentras desplegado en medio de una jungla o desierto.
that's the towed target
 

Roland55

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Iba a publicar sobre los prototipos I.Ae.22DL, pero me encontré con esto ...
View attachment 663881

Hasta donde yo sé, se supone que es un "paquete de baterías" para ayudar al avión a arrancar fácilmente en lugares donde la energía no estaría realmente disponible. Bastante ingenioso, digo ... si de repente te encuentras desplegado en medio de una jungla o desierto.
that's the towed target
Target is open at the back, it has a pointier nose and lack the wheels, this was a “battery pack”
 

Erdosain

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Iba a publicar sobre los prototipos I.Ae.22DL, pero me encontré con esto ...
[ATTACH = full] 663881 [/ ATTACH]

Hasta donde yo sé, se supone que es un "paquete de baterías" para ayudar al avión a arrancar fácilmente en lugares donde la energía no estaría realmente disponible. Bastante ingenioso, digo ... si de repente te encuentras desplegado en medio de una jungla o desierto.
ese es el objetivo remolcado
El objetivo está abierto en la parte posterior, tiene una punta más puntiaguda y carece de ruedas, esto era un "paquete de baterías"



Ok, you were right. It looks very handmade, maybe they only made one. I understand they called it "POD PUA"

Another photo of the orange "Pod PUA" in flight.

IMG-20210908-WA0121.jpg
 

Roland55

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Iba a publicar sobre los prototipos I.Ae.22DL, pero me encontré con esto ...
[ATTACH = full] 663881 [/ ATTACH]

Hasta donde yo sé, se supone que es un "paquete de baterías" para ayudar al avión a arrancar fácilmente en lugares donde la energía no estaría realmente disponible. Bastante ingenioso, digo ... si de repente te encuentras desplegado en medio de una jungla o desierto.
ese es el objetivo remolcado
El objetivo está abierto en la parte posterior, tiene una punta más puntiaguda y carece de ruedas, esto era un "paquete de baterías"



Ok, you were right. It looks very handmade, maybe they only made one. I understand they called it "POD PUA"

Another photo of the orange "Pod PUA" in flight.

View attachment 663959
Wow, thanks for the photo!! (another, enlarged by AI)
rbqXQdV6_2x.jpg
And here is a comparison with the target towing pod
10409172_769234899820915_5435678792503343768_n.jpg
 

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