European MGCS ( Main Ground Combat System)

uk 75 said:
The idea of a family of main armoured vehicles has not gone too well for the Russians but the Germans may have more luck.
If France, Germany and Italy make a successful family of vehicles the UK should buy them off the shelf.
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The UK should rebuild its AFV industry. It won't be able to make good procurement decisions without sufficient institutional knowledge, and that can only come from in-house development.
 
A Tentative Fleet Plan said:
The UK should rebuild its AFV industry. It won't be able to make good procurement decisions without sufficient institutional knowledge, and that can only come from in-house development.
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This is a sensible and centrist position. But sadly it is heresy to current Orthodoxy of UK politics.
 
One significant advantage of the new calibers is that they allow a longer penetrator. 120mm are basically maxed out, the only way to get longer penetrators is a new caliber.

jsport said:
https://euro-sd.com/2023/01/articles/29122/main-ground-combat-system-mgcs-a-status-report/
csm_MGCS_front_bodytext_9be3c180cc.png
Notional MGCS family of combat and support vehicles. (Photo: Hensoldt=
BMVg-1A.jpg
Notional composition of a multi-vehicle MGCS team. (Photo: BMVg)
BMVg-1B.jpg
Notional composition of a multi-vehicle MGCS team. (Photo: BMVg/German MoD)
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Am I understanding this correctly? One classic tank as HQ. 3 vehicles on smaller tracked chassis, with two of those vehicles optionally manned and one unmanned entirely? Or is it 3 vehicles on the same chassis as the tank with only the unmanned loitering munition launcher on a lighter chassis?

In terms of weapons, 2 tank guns, one hypervelocity ATGM launcher, and one loitering munition/artillery rocket platform?
 
Scott Kenny said:
One significant advantage of the new calibers is that they allow a longer penetrator. 120mm are basically maxed out, the only way to get longer penetrators is a new caliber.

In terms of weapons, 2 tank guns, one hypervelocity ATGM launcher, and one loitering munition/artillery rocket platform?
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jsport said:
Folks will believe a MGCS story when they see a prototype emerge.
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Personal impression: Is this a TOG II?

Practically meme requirements suitable for the war before the last war, right at when RMA is still a novel idea to be hedged.
 
shin_getter said:
Personal impression: Is this a TOG II?

Practically meme requirements suitable for the war before the last war, right at when RMA is still a novel idea to be hedged.
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Could be, but I don't believe so.

IIRC from a Chieftain video, the idea with MGCS is that you can't make a reasonably sized tank with all the different bits you need to be competitive today. Hence a vehicle carrying HV-ATGMs, a vehicle carrying a whole hive of loitering munitions, and two vehicles carrying the big tank guns as a single battlefield unit.
 
BMVg released who does which pillar.
Pillar 1 – MGCS Main Ground Combat System platform with chassis and automated navigation under German leadership
Pillar 2 – cannon, turret and ammunition under German-French leadership. In a first step, different cannon systems are to be developed nationally and a system is to be selected after comparative testing.
Pillar 3 – secondary armament, for example, guided missiles under French leadership
Pillar 4 – Communication, command and operations system as a “digital nervous system” under German-French leadership
Pillar 5 – simulation environment under German-French leadership
Pillar 6 – Sensor technology under French leadership
Pillar 7 – Protection and drone defense under German leadership
Pillar 8 – Support, logistics and infrastructure under German-French leadership
https://t.co/yepI49QKZI
 
Hmm we know there is an Missile carrier in development but is there anything known about it? If i remember it right everything from loitering munition to hypersonic ATGM was said which makes it hard to guess what one can expect.
 
kqcke for you said:
Hmm we know there is an Missile carrier in development but is there anything known about it? If i remember it right everything from loitering munition to hypersonic ATGM was said which makes it hard to guess what one can expect.
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I'm expecting both, but maybe not loaded into the same vehicle at the same time...
 
kqcke for you said:
The thing is in the EDF are 2 programs for a new MBT. MARTE (Main ARmoured Tank of Europe) and FMBTech (Technologies for existing and Future MBTs). Marte is a more german lead programm compared to FMBTech which has a focus around french industrie.
https://www.hartpunkt.de/european-d...ch-gleich-zwei-parallele-kampfpanzerprojekte/
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FMBTech sounds more like a support program than MARTE. MARTE makes the tanks, FMBTech makes the things that go into the tanks.
 
Forest Green said:
Penetration vs number of rounds carried.
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AIUI, it's not even that issue. I believe both the 130mm and 140mm have the same case diameter as the NATO 120mm, just significantly longer. The 130mm might actually be a bit longer but I'm not sure.

They're basically arguing about piston area of the sabot and the flight weight of the dart.

https://lasd.online/140-ascalon/
 
TomS said:
AIUI, it's not even that issue. I believe both the 130mm and 140mm have the same case diameter as the NATO 120mm, just significantly longer. The 130mm might actually be a bit longer but I'm not sure.

They're basically arguing about piston area of the sabot and the flight weight of the dart.

https://lasd.online/140-ascalon/
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Well, the next generation tank round needs to be able to hold a really long dart.

IIRC the M829A4 penetrator is more than 780mm long overall (L : D over 31!), and the complete round is 890mm. But the end of the A4 penetrator is basically right on top of the primer vent tube inside the case stub, so the US can't really get any more length out of the 120mm ammunition.

So if the 130mm case is longer than the 140mm, that's the better argument. More growth potential for the future!

(edited to remove the unintentional smilie.
 
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Scott Kenny said:
Well, the next generation tank round needs to be able to hold a really long dart.

IIRC the M829A4 penetrator is more than 780mm long overall (L : D over 31!), and the complete round is 890mm. But the end of the A4 penetrator is basically right on top of the primer vent tube inside the case stub, so the US can't really get any more length out of the 120mm ammunition.

So if the 130mm case is longer than the 140mm, that's the better argument. More growth potential for the future!

(edited to remove the unintentional smilie.
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As far as i know both rounds are supposed to be the same in case diameter and length. Things the projectile diameter, max./min. ... pressure are different. And even if one is some 10-50mm longer the extra 10mm diameter are also „important“ for NLOS munitions.
 
Arjen said:
@cador I am genuinely puzzled. Please explain.
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How do you explain that Rheinmetall came after in the MGCS program, and the information about armament concern its 130mm product and overall no decision has been taken about it ?
 
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@cador That's a question. I would like an explanation, please.
My guess, if I would care to offer one, I would struggle to phrase in polite words.
 
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Arjen said:
@cador That's a question. I would like an explanation, please.
My guess, if I would care to offer one, I would struggle to phrase in polite words.
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remove the question, you will have the explanation otherwise why be rude? you don't know how to do it otherwise? Are you from the police and asking for explanations?
 
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@cador My French suffices to understand you aren't offering the explanation I seek. I will offer my guess now: you don't have an explanation to offer.

Kindly reply in English the next time.
 
So the best I understand this perplexing argument:

GTX posted news about a KNDS (Franco-German company) 140mm ASCALON© gun being tested as part of development of the armament of the MCGS.

Scott Kenny said he thought MCGS was going to use a 130mm gun.

Cador said that MCGS using 130mm was just "Rheinmetall and German propaganda", the 130mm gun is a separate purely Rheinmetall project.
 

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