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Author Topic: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently  (Read 11013 times)

Offline muttbutt

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Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« on: February 15, 2016, 01:31:34 pm »
RM released this late last year. MGCS=Main ground combat system= the supposed Leo III MBT.


Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 02:41:12 pm »
More like Leopard 2.5, it seems to me.
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Offline muttbutt

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 03:27:44 pm »
More like Leopard 2.5, it seems to me.
I don't think the illustration with the 130mm gun is supposed to show the final MGCS.

Online SpudmanWP

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 09:19:36 pm »
I found this while looking around.... that is one SCARY looking shell.

How does the 130mm compare to the 140mm (next to a 120mm below)?

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Offline cluttonfred

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2016, 12:35:23 am »
Just wondering, is there really a market for tank supergun at this point in time?  Seems very 1980s to me....
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Offline Tony Williams

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2016, 03:59:32 am »
The 125mm gun in the Russian T14 Armata tank is, according to some, an interim solution - they are aiming at something bigger, maybe 152mm.
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Offline cluttonfred

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 05:22:55 am »
Well, the former Soviet military was not known for the economics of some of their decisions, and presumably the Russian military has maintained that tradition.  Not that other countries, most especially the USA necessarily do better, mind you.  But when tank that costs $9 million (1999 M1A2 Abrams price adjusted for inflation) or more can be taken out by missile that costs $250,000 (price of current generation Javelin) or less, does the next generation tank really need a bigger and better gun for tank-vs.-tank combat?  It reminds me of the stubborn efforts by some to maintain old technology in the face of new developments, like the Italians retaining the Fiat CR.42 in front line service for far too long--a fantastic biplane still being built when the day of the biplane was long over.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 05:33:39 am by cluttonfred »
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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 05:32:21 am »
More like Leopard 2.5, it seems to me.
I don't think the illustration with the 130mm gun is supposed to show the final MGCS.

Sorry, should have looked at that slide more carefully.
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Offline muttbutt

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2016, 12:50:01 pm »
Some more images have popped up on the interwebs.




Offline Avimimus

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2016, 01:37:51 pm »
I wonder if a larger higher velocity round is better suited for getting past active defences? It certainly has the potential to fire at longer range (i.e. as improvised artillery) or fire more effective gun launched missiles - but that is more of a Russian approach than a German one isn't it?

It is interesting how that slide implies the superiority of the Armata.

The turret *is* said to have growth capability - so there might eventually be an upgunned variant. The technology for such a gun appear to be quite mature (Russia has had working prototypes for about 25 year - which is a long time even if you assume the program was on hold for a decade). I suspect that their reason for talking about the capability (and building it in) is to deter an arms race... i.e. "don't bother to up armour your tanks. If you do we'll field a bigger gun quickly."

Offline muttbutt

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 01:57:57 pm »
Quote
Rheinmetall to unveil 130mm smoothbore tank gun at Eurosatory

Rheinmetall is developing a 130mm smoothbore tank gun that will be unveiled at the Eurostatory exhibition in June, company officials have confirmed to IHS Jane's .

According to Werner Kraemer, president of Rheinmetall Waffe Munition's executive board, the new 130 mm gun should be in production by 2025.

The new tank gun is intended to be a match for the current and new generations of Russian armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs), including the T-14 Armata main battle tank (MBT).

A new MBT turret is also being designed alongside the new gun. The new turret design is understood to be based on an existing Leopard 2 MBT turret reconfigured to cope with the new weapon.
http://www.janes.com/article/60318/rheinmetall-to-unveil-130mm-smoothbore-tank-gun-at-eurosatory

Offline Void

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2016, 01:08:45 am »
Well, the former Soviet military was not known for the economics of some of their decisions, and presumably the Russian military has maintained that tradition.  Not that other countries, most especially the USA necessarily do better, mind you.  But when tank that costs $9 million (1999 M1A2 Abrams price adjusted for inflation) or more can be taken out by missile that costs $250,000 (price of current generation Javelin) or less, does the next generation tank really need a bigger and better gun for tank-vs.-tank combat?  It reminds me of the stubborn efforts by some to maintain old technology in the face of new developments, like the Italians retaining the Fiat CR.42 in front line service for far too long--a fantastic biplane still being built when the day of the biplane was long over.

Tanks usually are not destroyed by penetration or enemy fire. Especially when care is taken to prevent the ammunition from detonating inside the fighting compartment. Tanks in intense combat can be expected to be penetrated, knocked out, repaired and returned to service many times; repairing a 9 million dollar tank does not cost 9 million dollars, it isn't expensive at all and can usually be done in a very short time by a competent repair service. Especially newer tanks like the Merkava IV, which were designed with rapid repair in mind.

More tanks have probably been lost permanently because they were abandoned and blown up to prevent capture or were captured than as a result of enemy fire.

And as for tank guns they have proven generally more consistent as effective AT weapons than ATGMs, which have swung from being enormously effective to largely ineffective and back again multiple times since they debuted with the progression of technology. With APS systems now (slowly) entering service and the early combat results very promising they seem to be waning again. The potential vulnerability of anti-armour defenses anchored by light vehicles and infantry with ATGMs to heavy artillery fire is also something that has been largely been forgotten since the Cold War in the West. It has never really been tested in battle, but NATO exercises in the 80's suggested Soviet artillery would be extremely effective at neutralizing ATGMs, either directly or by laying smoke screens.

If you are worried about Russia, you definitely need to worry about artillery.

Offline bobbymike

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Offline TomS

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2016, 09:31:02 am »
This image is pretty infomrative:



That's the old 120mm round on the right, and the new 130mm on the left.  Not much difference in case diameter, but the case length is about 50% longer (just eyeballing), which translates pretty directly into propellant volume.  That's going to be a very hot round (and pretty hard to manhandle -- 120mm was said to be right at the limit for manual loading and this will be much heavier.)

Offline bobbymike

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Re: Rheinmetall developing 130mm tank gun.....apparently
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2016, 01:49:11 pm »
This image is pretty infomrative:



That's the old 120mm round on the right, and the new 130mm on the left.  Not much difference in case diameter, but the case length is about 50% longer (just eyeballing), which translates pretty directly into propellant volume.  That's going to be a very hot round (and pretty hard to manhandle -- 120mm was said to be right at the limit for manual loading and this will be much heavier.)
IIRC when I watched a M1A2 video the space for the loader to pull the shell, swing it around and load it is pretty tight so we may also be talking about an autoloader or a turret redesign.
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