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Author Topic: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers  (Read 131139 times)

Offline JAZZ

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Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« on: June 03, 2007, 07:05:47 pm »
The Soviets had a number of stilborn aircraft carrier projects from the 1930's all the way through to the 1990's.

One of the most studied was Project-72 dating back to WW-II (1943) I think. Other projects include Project-69A, Project-85 and Project 1123 (Moskova concepts) before getting to the P1153 Orel, P1160 and then the Kiev, Kuznetsov, and Ulyanvosk. Only current carrier under construction is the rebuild of A Gorshkov for the Indian Navy 

Offline smurf

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 01:05:40 am »
There is too much on all these to re-post here.  Anyone interested "search" on
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipprojects/index.php?mforum=warshipprojects
[there is a Russian Navy section, but stuff also gets into the "Own Designs" and Real Ships and other discussions.]
Do not miss the "Wunderwaffe" links.  Excellent drawings.

Offline JAZZ

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2007, 02:44:37 pm »
The Soviets were worked on developing aircraft carrier concepts through the 1950-60s. Here is the Project -85 from the early 60's and Project 1160 from the early 1970s.

Offline gral_rj

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2007, 04:49:36 am »
Is that picture of Project 85 from the Morskaya Kollektsiya magazine?

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2007, 02:11:04 am »
I think that its the Jazz himself that have done the colouring...am I right?

Anyway I've been trying to write some sort of summary of the Soviet carrier development, I've actually managed to write the part I & II which covers the pre and post WWII era and as well as the Moskvas and Kievs. I wrote them couple years ago and I've since have had some additional information tough nothing dramatical. Anyway I'm trying to get grib of myself to do the part III which would cover the 1160, 1153, Later Kievs, Khalzan, Kuznetsovs and Ulyanovsk classes...

Part I & II are found in SDF and in Defencetalk forum.

Offline flateric

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2007, 03:18:14 am »
They are from Morskaya Kollektsiya
aviable here http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/index.htm
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2007, 11:51:38 am »
Could you be more spesific from wich issue? I've tought I've looked them all and not seeing those, but I could be wrong ???

Offline flateric

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2007, 11:58:50 am »
Sorry...I was fooled by artist's style - it's definitely is the same artist that makes drawings for Modelist-Konstruktor magazine section that has the same name (Morskaya Kollektziya).

BTW, found interesting site WLFSCD -
http://atrinaflot.narod.ru/81_publ.htm
Soviet military laser ship, soviet aircraft carriers projects 1920-1955, etc.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 12:04:58 pm by flateric »
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline JAZZ

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 03:49:25 am »
Sorry fellas, the drawings and pic were down loaded from an internet site, the first drawing I have rendered, the second is not so much a rendering, but colouring the orginal existing grey-scale. may be this stuff belongs in the art section??

However, I am very interested in the design linage of soviet/russian carriers. Anything you want rendered??...

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 10:02:27 pm »
Well 1153 would be nice 8). Anyway I'm currently drawing the pr. 10800 Khalzan class helicoptercarrier for the Mconrads shipbucket site and in future propaply the other soviet carriers as well...

Offline JAZZ

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2007, 04:05:24 pm »
P1153 there seems to be a few colour and black and white photos of the model. Here is one, so not sure if its worth doing a colour rendering??

Unless their is a graphic you are thinking of and wish to post it and i can see what I can do with it.

Cheers JAZZ

Offline KCX

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2007, 08:59:39 pm »
(Articles from - http://www.webcom.com/~amraam/rcar.html)

While the Moskvas were revolutionary in the sense that they were the first ships dedicated to carrying an air wing, it was clear that they were insufficient to fulfill the full role of aircraft carriers in fleet operations. The key problem was that they could not effectively provide the fleet with organic fighter cover. The Russian Navy then took the next step, assembling a specification for a new type of ship to carry not only helicopters, but fixed-wing fighter aircraft.
This resulted in the most ambitious design specification for any Russian aircraft carrier to date. Named Project OREL, this nuclear-powered ship would have displaced 80,000 tons and carried seventy conventional (that is, non-vertical takeoff/landing) aircraft. These aircraft would serve in an American-style multipurpose air wing, capable of fulfilling the fighter, attack, and airborne early-warning roles. There were some differences between the OREL vessel and an American supercarrier, primarily in OREL's own battery of dedicated antiship missiles (which continued to appear on Russian carrier designs). However, the philosophies underlying both designs were very similar, a point underscored by an order reportedly from Defense Minister Grechko himself: "Why are you splitting hairs here? Make an aircraft carrier like the Americans have, with that kind of aircraft fleet."

The OREL design never made it to production. Marshal Grechko died and the Defense Ministry was taken over by Marshal Ustinov, who did not share Grechko's enthusiasm for large-deck aircraft carriers. Elements within the Defense Ministry and the Navy itself, who viewed smaller designs which carried vertical takeoff/landing (VTOL) aircraft as superior in terms of cost-effectiveness, intervened to halt the progress of OREL. Instead of a new large carrier design, compromise work was done with the Kiev class of VTOL carriers, which were already beginning to enter service.


P.S : If anybody have BIGGER or BETTER pictures about this Orel class CVN, please post. Because I really need them..... ::)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 09:03:13 pm by KCX »

Offline KCX

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2007, 09:06:44 pm »
After the cancellation of Orel class (Project 1160) nuclear powered aircraft carrier, Soviet Navy developed smaller one - which is Sovietski Soyuz class (Project 1153) aircraft carrier.

Her displacement was 60,000 tons, and planned to use MiG-23K.

But several technical mistake/problem of her development & cancellation of MiG-23K resulted her cancellation, too.


P.S : If anybody have BIGGER or BETTER pictures about this Sovietski Soyuz class CVN, please post. Because I really need them..... ::)

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2007, 09:07:43 am »
I think I've got bigger versions of most of those pics, but in my own computer...I'll post them on monday when i'm near it again

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2007, 12:51:43 pm »
Here's like I promised, all my "big" pics...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 12:54:56 pm by gollevainen »

Offline Antonio

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2007, 01:44:21 pm »
Excellent pics, thanks for posting Gollevainen.
The Ivan-Tarawa is new for me, can you give more details about it (project name and date)?


Offline KCX

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2007, 06:37:50 pm »
Excellent pics, thanks for posting Gollevainen.
The Ivan-Tarawa is new for me, can you give more details about it (project name and date)?


As far as I know, it's Project 11780 landing ship. (I refer it as LPH.)

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,766.15.html

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2007, 10:56:15 pm »
Well the pr. 11780 is somewhat mystical becouse all we know about it is basicly the project number and that it is some sort of landingship. Some rumours tells that its based on the Khalzan program but the latter was ASW helicopter carrier based on containership hull...

« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 04:07:30 am by pometablava »

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2007, 02:36:26 am »
To add for the list, here's a shipbucket drawing that I made from Khalzan. I'm planning to draw the other soviet "what-if" carriers in similar way alongside my eternityproject of drawing all the soviet ships. If you have linedrawings of rare soviet ships (I mean rare, I already have the most ususals) feel free to send them to me...


Offline Antonio

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2007, 02:53:04 am »
Quote
I'm planning to draw the other soviet "what-if" carriers

Gollevainen, the drawing represents an unbuilt project (real design) or a "what-if" (not real, design based on fan's imagination)?


Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2007, 03:33:17 am »
Well both actually. First I draw the unbuild projects as close as possiple to the exiting data and availble reference pics (like Khalzan here) but also various "what-ifs" eg. my own ideas mainly intended for my imaginary Novgorod's fleet which I've created based on never-where and unbuild soviet ships. I will post the "what-ifs" other occasion (as soon as I'm finished it) so all the drawings that I may post in this thread are from real existing designs.


« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 04:07:57 am by pometablava »

Offline Meteorit

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2007, 02:44:53 pm »
Where did the Pr.11780 drawing go?  ???
I hadn't yet saved it.  :'(
It certainly was a real Soviet project. (I'll post some info later on.)

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2007, 12:38:03 pm »
There wasen't drawing on 11780, only from the Khalzan which also was a real soviet project. I just posted it accidentaly twice...

Offline Meteorit

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2007, 05:53:44 am »
Okay. I was, eh, in a hurry when I first saw you posts and thought I'd save the pictures in the evening at home - but then the other one had disappeared. I hadn't looked into them closely, also the board's automatic image resizing didn't really help...  :-[  :)

Anyway, here's what I have of Pr.11780. Info comes from Google cache of a Russian forum that both have now vanished, from http://forums.airbase.ru/viewtopic.php?id=52349, and from looking at the pictures.

Pr.11780 (Kremenchug ?)

The Pr.11780 was designed in the mid-1980s as a follow-on to the Pr.1174 landing ships, utilizing also design elements from the Pr.10200 and Pr.1143.4 carriers. The ship resembled the American Tarawa class, and was thus sometimes called "Ivan Tarava". The Pr.11780 was a development of the Pr.10200 ASW helicopter carrier. The number of SAM launchers was increased, and the ability to handle V/STOL aircraft was added. The ship had a well deck with bow and aft ramps. The Murena class LCACs were designed for carriage by the Pr.11780. It was to use the boiler and turbine arrangement from Pr.956 destroyers.

Displacement full load, tons: 44,000
Flight deck length, metres: 200
Flight deck width, metres: 25

Missiles:
12 SA-N-9 Gauntlet (RZ-130 Kinzhal) vertical launchers.
2 CADS-N-1 (Kortik).
Guns:
1 AK-130 130 mm/70.
Helicopters:
12 Ka-27/29 Helix.

Air/surface search:
Top Plate (MR-760 Fregat-MA)
Navigation:
3 Palm Frond (Volga)
Fire control:
Cross Sword (MR-360 Podkat)
Kite Screech (MR-123-02)
Tacan:
Cake Stand

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2007, 06:47:51 am »
That makes sense. Tough the lenght 200m sounds bit too small given the displacement and the fact that Khalzan is almoust 230 meters and this design looks even bigger.

A full size drawing of the Khalzan can be found on Mconrads http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k279/shipbucket/ site.

If anyone have a linedrawing of the pr. 11780, please send it to me so I can draw similar image from it as well...

Offline Firefly 2

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2007, 02:46:07 am »
Why is it that every Russian carrier design I've seen always comes whit its own set of heavy anti ship missiles? Did the " everything missile" dogma imposed by Chroetsjov have such a long reach?

Offline flateric

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2007, 03:41:38 am »
Very often in a history of Soviet/Russian shipbuilding (for example, in case of Project 1144 Orlan aka Kirov) such amount of strike weapons onboard caused not by actual fleet needs, but by wish of multiply contractors to have their weapon system(s) be installed on a new ship.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Firefly 2

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2007, 05:55:39 am »
Even though they are made redundant because of a fixed wing strike element, gotcha...

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2007, 04:03:40 am »
Here's 1153...I propaply should have posted this earlier.

The armament fit is bit optional as I had quite hard time to figure out xactly what was to be fitted to it. The existing linedrawing didn't give much help, it raised more questions than gave awnsers and the pictures of the model were too misty to make anything reasonable out of it. As the drawing is based on the idea that the first 1153 would have been build around the time of the Novorossisk or Baku (The ttz was ade around 1972-3) I adopted pretty much the same armament fit as in those two ships including Kinzhal but not Kortiks.


Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2009, 09:44:38 pm »
To Be or Not To Be: The Development of Soviet Deck Aviation by Vadim Kolnogorov, of the Central Naval Museum in St. Petersburg, is a very interesting history of Soviet Navy aircraft carriers.
http://yurizhukov.com/files/CWaS_339-359_soviet_naval_aviation.pdf
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 12:05:02 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2009, 10:13:02 pm »
Images of a Project 1123 "Kondor" concept model.  Project 1123 "Kondor" would become the Moskva-class helicopter carrier.
http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/NPKB/1123/
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:12:19 am by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2009, 10:19:29 pm »
Images of another Project 1123 "Kondor" concept model.
http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/NPKB/1123/
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:12:37 am by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2009, 10:23:48 pm »
Images of another Project 1123 "Kondor" concept model.
http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/NPKB/1123/
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:12:57 am by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2009, 10:35:55 pm »
Images of a Project 11780 concept model. Project 11780 is also known as "Ivan Tarawa."
http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/NPKB/11780/
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:15:21 am by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2009, 10:37:51 pm »
Additional images of a Project 11780 concept model.

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2009, 10:45:23 pm »
Additional images of Project 11780 concept model.

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2009, 10:49:26 pm »
Images of a Project 1153 "Orel" concept model.

Project 1153 "Orel" was a 1970s-era Soviet program to give the Soviet Navy a true blue water aviation capability. The ship would have been about 75-80,000 tons displacement, with a nuclear power plant and carried about 70 aircraft launched via steam catapults. It was cancelled as being too expensive and a reduced version of 60,000 tons and fifty aircraft was proposed. This was also turned down for cost reasons.

"Orel" would have resulted in a program very similar to the aircraft carriers available to the U.S. Navy. While the project never saw fruition, it later resulted in the abortive Ulyanovsk program. The name "Orel" means "Eagle," The Russians named all of their major warship classes after birds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_1153_OREL

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/NPKB/1153/
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:14:04 am by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2009, 10:57:25 pm »
Images of a Project 1143.7 "Orel" concept model or Ul'yanovsk-class heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser.

Ul'yanovsk was the first of a class of Soviet supercarriers which, for the first time, would have offered true blue water aviation capability for the Soviet Navy. This was based upon the 1975 Project 1153 "Orel" (which never went beyond blueprints), and the initial commissioned name was to be Kremlin, but was later given the name Ul'yanovsk,[2] after the Soviet town of Ul'yanovsk, which was in turn named after Vladimir Lenin's original name.

She would have been 85,000 tons in displacement, or more than the older Forrestal-class carriers, but smaller than contemporary Nimitz class carriers of the U.S. Navy. Ulyanovsk would have been able to carry the full range of fixed-wing carrier aircraft, as opposed to the limited scope in which Admiral Kuznetsov makes aircraft available, by way of a ski jump. The configuration would have been very similar to U.S. Navy carriers, though with the typical Soviet twist of adding ASM and SAM launchers. Her hull was laid down in 1988, but the project was cancelled, (at 40% complete) along with a sister ship, in 1991 after the end of the Cold War. Scrapping began on February 4, 1992.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Ulyanovsk


Designer: Nevskoye Planning and Design Bureau
Builder: Nikolayev South
Length: 1065 feet overall
995 feet waterline
Flight Deck Width: 248.5 feet
Beam: 130.6 feet
Draft:   35.4 feet
Displacement: 79,758 tons Full Load
60,000 tons Standard
Propulsion: PWR nuclear reactors
4 turbines 240,000 shp
Endurance
Max Speed   30+ knots
Crew   2,300 Navy
1,500 Naval Air
Armament
6 x 30mm/65 AK 630
24 VLS ADAM launchers w/192 RZ-130 Kinzhal/Klinok/SA-N-9 Gauntlet missiles
8 CADS-N-1/Kortik each with 1 twin 30mm Gatlingcombined w/ 256 3M-88/SA-N-11 Grison
12 cell VLS installed under the upper deckw/12 P-500 Granit/SS-N-19 Shipwreck missiles
2 RPK-5/Udav-1 Liven integrated ASW

Countermeasures   
Sozbezie-BR suite
Wine Glass intercept
Bell Push intercept
Flat Track
Bell Nip
Cross Loop D/F

 Radar
Air/Surface Search MR-710 Fregat-MA/Top Plate 3D
 2 MR-320M Topaz/Strut Pair 2D

Navigation
3 Palm Frond Fire Control
 4 MR-360 Podkat/Cross Sword SA-N-9 control
 8 3P37/Hot Flash SA-N-11 control

Aircraft Control
 Fly Trap B
 
Sonar
Zvezda-2 suite
MGK-345 Bronza/Ox Yoke hull mounted

Aircraft
70 aircraft total 27 Su-27K Flankers
10 Su-25 Frogfoots
Yak-44 radar picket aircraft
 15-20 helicopters

Laid Down: November 25, 1988
Scrapped: February 4, 1992.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/1143_7-specs.htm

« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:01:05 am by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2009, 10:59:54 pm »
Additional images of a Project 1143.7 "Orel" concept model or Ul'yanovsk-class.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 11:51:43 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2009, 11:08:32 pm »
Proposed full-carrier conversion of Baku later renamed Admiral Gorshkov.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 11:26:56 pm by Triton »

Offline Creative

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2009, 07:55:04 am »
I don't know why the Russian Navy would want to buy a Mistral when Project 11780 there looks like a sound design ???  Oh and thanks for the images.

Offline T-50

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2009, 02:13:20 pm »
 I want to know the current status of the next generation of Russian carrier,are they already building it?
 Is it nuclear or conventionally powered?
I hope somone has some info

Offline JohnR

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2009, 03:37:44 pm »
Couple of points:

What is the missile launcher in the A and C positions on the first few images, looks kind of like a Roland style launcher with the missile being transferred to the launcher horizontally?

Given that in terms of aircraft carrier ops the Russians have the US carriers to look at - from a distance - why do they fit their aircraft carrier designs with such large islands?  Looking at the Kutzenov & Varyag they have a fantastically design sleek hull, and then this huge ugly lump of an island, what is in that island surely it can't just be because of the electronics?

The "Ivan Tarawa" looks to have evolved from the Kiev class?  Are there any stats on her?  Also it looks more like she has a stern ramp; ro-ro style, rather than a docking well?  I have to agree with Creative why order the Mistral when they have a baseline design - particularly as the Mistrals are one of the unattractive ships ever built - it looks to me like a large chunk missing from ahead of the island.

I just also want it noted that I do like the aesthetic qualities of most Russian/Soviet warships particularly hull designs, sometimes the upperworks get a little out of hand - as with the carriers.

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2009, 06:27:12 am »
Quote
What is the missile launcher in the A and C positions on the first few images, looks kind of like a Roland style launcher with the missile being transferred to the launcher horizontally?

It's a prototype launcher for M-11 SAM system (SA-N-3 Goblet)

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2009, 11:55:42 am »
The "Ivan Tarawa" looks to have evolved from the Kiev class?  Are there any stats on her? 

Specifications are provided earlier in this topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1948.msg17615.html#msg17615

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2009, 10:11:36 am »
The reason the Russians want to buy a Mistral is simple. Russian naval shipbuilding and design is still stuck in the 1970s/80s. It is decades behind what European yards are capable of in terms of cost effectiveness and design capacity. The hope is that procuring a Mistral they can also buy the associated technology and feed it into the carrier programme. Also remember that no Russian yard has ever built and aircraft carrier, they were all previously built in the Ukraine.

As for the state of the Russian carrier programme. It has recently been stated that such a vessels will be ordered in 2010. However the Russian economy is in dire straights so we will see what happens. Furthermore the current Russian Navy surface ship building programme is less than impressive with most units well behind schedule and these are only corvette/frigate sized vessels not aircraft carriers. in addition there are elements in the russian navy pushing for the reconstruction of two of the Kirov's in addition to the Peter the Great. Such a project would tie up both shipyard and financial resources for sometime were it to be initiated, the procurement of 'several' mistrals would have a similar effect. Nuclear power seems to favored but we will see what happens, in reality I dont expect to see a Russian carrier other than Kuznetzov at sea before 2020.   

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2009, 12:03:00 pm »
The reason the Russians want to buy a Mistral is simple. Russian naval shipbuilding and design is still stuck in the 1970s/80s. It is decades behind what European yards are capable of in terms of cost effectiveness and design capacity. The hope is that procuring a Mistral they can also buy the associated technology and feed it into the carrier programme. Also remember that no Russian yard has ever built and aircraft carrier, they were all previously built in the Ukraine.

Naval Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsk has been quoted as saying "We will not only buy the helicopter-carrier but also the technology for building it."

General Nikolai Makarov said Russia wanted to forge a deal with France on joint production of at least four or five ships of the same class.

So it does sound like they want France's help in modernizing Russia's shipbuilding industry.

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4272788
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 12:29:19 pm by Triton »

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2010, 02:58:58 pm »
Hi folks,

Does anyone know what would have been the planned aircraft compliment (types not numbers) of the Orel class (Project 1160) CVN(s)?  I assume MiG-23Ks but what else?

Regards,

Greg

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2010, 06:48:30 am »
Well there is three references available of that design sofar. A linedrawing and two models. The Linedrawing clearly indicates that Su-27K is the main bulk of the carriers airfleet and only other visible aircraft type is the Yak-44 AEW plane. Of the two models which are slightly different than the line drawing (and varies slightly between themselves) one shows Su-27K and another shows MiG-23K. No other aicraft types are visible in the pics of the models.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2010, 02:29:24 pm »
Proposed full-carrier conversion of Baku later renamed Admiral Gorshkov.

Do you know by any chance what type of aircraft was suposed to be the twin turboprop, the silhouette of the fighter looks like a Yak-41, but the turboprop seems to have no rotodome, and a single fin ( so not a Yak-44...i think )
I know its only a rough general draw, but since the drawing is numbered ,  maby the original source  have a designation for that a/c ?

Thanks!   

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2010, 01:14:10 am »
Sources:
A.Sokolov "Alternative - unbuilt  ships Rossiyskogo and the Soviet navy. "
"The development of aircraft carriers in the USSR"
"Citadel"1998 № 3
"Aviation and cosmonautic" 2008 № 9

Projects V. Levkov's - aircraft carrier on an air cushion (1935) and R. Alekseev's -  hydrofoil (1949) should be considered only as a concept, an innovative for those years.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 03:56:25 am by Jemiba »

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2010, 07:59:54 am »
thanks borovick!
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2010, 10:54:29 am »
"TsKB-17" is certainly out there...

Any guess as to the large VLS-like drums aft? Sure look like a proto-SA-N-6, but there's no obvious associated director. Especially strange considering the SA-N-3 right next to it.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2010, 12:19:09 pm »
My guess would be that those are ballistic missile launch tubes.  This was firmly in Khrushchev's "missiles above all else" phase, after all.

PS: TsKB-17 was the name of the design bureau, not the specific design.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2010, 10:09:52 am »
Sources:
A.Sokolov "Alternative - unbuilt  ships Rossiyskogo and the Soviet navy. "
"The development of aircraft carriers in the USSR"
"Citadel"1998 № 3
"Aviation and cosmonautic" 2008 № 9
i suppose all only in russian language !!!  :(
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2010, 01:28:25 pm »
My guess would be that those are ballistic missile launch tubes.  This was firmly in Khrushchev's "missiles above all else" phase, after all.

PS: TsKB-17 was the name of the design bureau, not the specific design.
Are the tubes deep enough for that?

(hence quotes around it; I assumed the 1961 was year instead of project number, and there was no other obvious name.)

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2010, 03:08:52 pm »
TsKB-17 in 1961, a technical project of the Impact of the ship for the Northern (СФ) and Pacific (ТОФ) fleets. The project was planned for 1965.
Displacement of the ship was 11 000 tons.
Cruising speed 34 knots.

Quote
"Any guess as to the large VLS-like drums aft?"

This is six missiles P-100 (range 2000km)
In addition 18 cruise missiles P-7 (range 900-1000km)
... and 4-6 planes.
P-100 in the mine.
from the "Encyclopedia of Russian missiles" A.Shirokorad
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 03:13:48 pm by borovik »

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2010, 03:32:46 pm »
To Be or Not To Be: The Development of Soviet Deck Aviation by Vadim Kolnogorov, of the Central Naval Museum in St. Petersburg, is a very interesting history of Soviet Navy aircraft carriers.
http://yurizhukov.com/files/CWaS_339-359_soviet_naval_aviation.pdf

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Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2011, 05:28:50 pm »
Project 1123 Kondor concept, Moskva-class helicopter carrier, circa 1958.

Source:
http://alternathistory.org.ua/evolyutsiya-kontseptsii-scs-sea-control-ship-korablei-kontrolya-morya?quicktabs_1=1
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 05:33:09 pm by Triton »

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2011, 04:54:43 am »
With regards as to the Mistral deal, the current Medvedev v Putin power struggle may have a major affect on it's chances for success. Given that Medvedev seems to be more enthusiastic for the plan than Putin, a Putin victory could see any hope for Russian Mistrals sent to the scrapyard, so to speak.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2011, 05:35:30 am »
Images of another Project 1123 "Kondor" concept model.
http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/NPKB/1123/

The models of the various Kondor concepts are very interesting, especially the catamaran based design. Might it have been a bit more seaworthy than the Moskvas proved to be? Although it does look somewhat top heavy.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2011, 11:06:24 am »
Photographs of Ul'yanovsk under construction at Nikolayev South Shipyard (now Black Sea Shipyard).

Source:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/11/t52349,11--razvitie-avianesuschikh-korablej-rossii-sssr.html

« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 11:21:31 am by Triton »

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« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 11:24:50 am by Triton »

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2011, 11:29:34 am »
Project 11435 circa 1979 which became Admiral Kuznetsov (formerly Riga, Leonid Brezhnev, and Tbilisi).

Source:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/11/t52349,17--razvitie-avianesuschikh-korablej-rossii-sssr.html
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 11:31:41 am by Triton »

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2011, 11:47:13 am »
The Ul'yanovsk deck spotting diagram was very interesting.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2011, 12:44:03 pm »
The Ul'yanovsk deck spotting diagram was very interesting.



I'm interested in the AWACS.  Did the Soviets ever start development of a small AWACS system that could fit on a carrier?

I think it's interesting to speculate about the Soviet Navy getting a carrier capability.  Although any country can buy/build a carrier, it takes a long time to develop the procedures, equipment and tactics to operate one effectively.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2011, 01:25:23 pm »
I'm interested in the AWACS.  Did the Soviets ever start development of a small AWACS system that could fit on a carrier?

Yak-44 got as far as a mock-up in 1991. I assume that this drawing shows that aircraft, which resembled an E-2, only somewhat larger.

Offline robunos

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2011, 03:17:22 pm »
Looking at the posted drawing, the AWACS aircraft appears to be
designated Yak-144.......


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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2011, 04:31:27 pm »
Got it.  Here are some pics of the Yak-44.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2011, 04:34:01 pm »
And a couple more images of the Yak-44.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2011, 05:09:53 pm »
We already have an existing topic devoted to the Yakolev Yak-44E at:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2290.msg19306.html#msg19306

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2012, 08:04:52 am »
Old news, but according to Defense Industry Daily and other sources, the Russian Mistrals will be referred to as the Vladivostok Class.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 08:06:37 am by Grey Havoc »
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2013, 09:33:32 am »
I've just came across an old 1987 Japanese article which claims a connection between the 'Toshiba affair' and the 'Kremlin' (Ulyanovsk/Ul'yanovsk) program. I'm doubtful myself, but here's a link to it (pages 60-80[pdf pg 63-83]). Warning: There are a number of extended digressions!
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Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #76 on: July 04, 2013, 03:55:42 pm »
Krylov Shipbuilding Research
Institute design showcased at current IMDS 2013 in St.Petersburg. Turbine powered CATOBAR, 80,0000 ton displacement.
Yes, those are T-50K along with MiG-29K on the flight desk.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 04:00:54 pm by flateric »
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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2013, 09:17:56 pm »
It still seem to have a ski-jump at the bow ? So the catapult only on the angled part of the
flight deck, for heavier laden or bigger aircraft (AEW/COD) maybe ?
And with that layout of the island, they risk the reproval of "copying the HMS Queen Elisabeth" !   ;)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 09:20:30 pm by Jemiba »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2013, 05:46:07 am »
From last November: Ulyanovsk Redux (Russian Defense Policy blog)
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2013, 07:14:52 am »
Let me give you guys all the projects I know regarding the Soviet Carriers:

Project 66AV or 68AV? (1953): Carrier design based on Project 66 heavy cruiser or Sverdlov class light cruiser?
Project 69AV (1945): Kronshtadt class battlecruiser conversion into carrier
Project 71A (1936): 13,000-ton Light Carrier Design
 Project 71B (1937): 22,000-ton Fleet Carrier Design
Project 72 (1942): 37,000-ton Fleet Carrier Design
Project 85 (1954): 30,500-ton light carrier design
Project 1020.0 (1980): 30,000-ton Helicopter carrier design
Project 1058.1 (1937): 74,000-ton battlecarrier design (Gibs & Cox project)
Project 1123 (1962): Moskva class helicopter carrier
 Project 1123.3 (1968): Modernized Moskva class helicopter carrier design
Project 1143.0 (1970): Kiev class carrier
 Project 1143.2 (1972): Modified Kiev class carrier Minsk
 Project 1143.3 (1975): Improved Kiev class carrier Novorossiysk
 Project 1143.4 (1978): Kiev Mod class carrier Baku
 Project 1143.5 (1982): Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier
 Project 1143.5M (???): Modernized Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier design
 Project 1143.6 (1985): Modified Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier
 Project 1143.7 (1988): Ulyanovsk class nuclear-powered carrier 
Project 1153 (1969): 70,000-ton Nuclear powered carrier design
Project 1160 (1972): 80,000-ton Nuclear powered carrier design
Project 1178 (1990): 44,000-ton Helicopter carrier design

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2013, 07:07:04 am »
Project 1153 is 1977 year design.

You forget light aircraft carrier (1968) - nuclear or conventionally powered, 50000 t, 280x60 m, 38 aircrafts (attached).


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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2013, 07:10:09 am »
Additional image


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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2013, 10:44:11 am »
I did not forget it. I did not known about it!!!!
I can't seem to find any info about it either!

And thanks for the correction. Dunno from where I've got that year!

« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 10:55:40 am by Tzoli »

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2013, 10:55:29 am »
The ski jump seems to have quite a shallow angle and, if the parts I've marked red, actually are the catapult tracks,
they end before the ski-jump. Quite unique arrangement !
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2013, 11:11:21 am »
Thats actually my drawing (what is with people who keep removing the credits?), based on the sole existing drawing of the ALV project. Mine is for my alternative universum project, done few years ago. The orginal image appeared in russian naval magazine Gangut and have been published in various other books as well.
Very little is known about this design, other than it's supposed to be 50 000t full load and 280m long. Propulsion either steam or combined nuclear/steam arragment. It was supposed to carry 38 planes; 28 fighters, 4 AEW planes, 2 recce planes and 4 helicopters.
If you guys have patience until late this year, I will post "all what I know" about the soviet carrier programs alongside with new updated and detailed shipbucket drawings.
 
 

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2013, 11:19:57 am »
Quote
If you guys have patience until late this year

No problem, I can wait for that. ;)

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2013, 02:01:23 pm »
Another Soviet aircraft carrier design:
First is designed by Nevskoe design bureau, last three - by Severnoe (late 80th).
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 05:20:44 am by stashandr »

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2013, 01:11:48 am »
Thats actually my drawing (what is with people who keep removing the credits?), based on the sole existing drawing of the ALV project. Mine is for my alternative universum project, done few years ago. The orginal image appeared in russian naval magazine Gangut and have been published in various other books as well.
Very little is known about this design, other than it's supposed to be 50 000t full load and 280m long. Propulsion either steam or combined nuclear/steam arragment. It was supposed to carry 38 planes; 28 fighters, 4 AEW planes, 2 recce planes and 4 helicopters.
If you guys have patience until late this year, I will post "all what I know" about the soviet carrier programs alongside with new updated and detailed shipbucket drawings.

So Project 1150 is your creation based on some data.
I think it would be better to see the original drawings rather the shipbucket ones.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2013, 05:24:55 am »
So Project 1150 is your creation based on some data.
I think it would be better to see the original drawings rather the shipbucket ones.
Designation "1150" is fake, it called "light aircraft carrier".
I have an original drawing, but not in electronic version.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2013, 05:49:11 am »
Quote
So Project 1150 is your creation based on some data.
I think it would be
better to see the original drawings rather the shipbucket ones.
Yes, people would be more aware if they didn't remove the credits and labels of the drawing.
And as for the rest of the carriers, trust me, the shipbucket drawings (showing them in orginal fit) will be worth a wait, they will become the "standard" illustrations of these projects after I've done with them;)
 

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2013, 02:23:44 pm »
Thats actually my drawing (what is with people who keep removing the credits?),

If people keep doing that to you, you need to start putting the credits on or over the drawing. Stealing is annoying. I know.

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2013, 04:04:00 pm »
Maybe they're EM catapults combined with a ski-jump?

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2013, 01:24:03 pm »
At least it would be the first carrier, where the catapult track doesn't end at the
deck edge. So there will be a strong deceleration after leaving the cat hook, I think.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2013, 06:32:09 pm »
A ski jump with a catapult ? For what ? With 80000 tons the catapults are enough .
The ski jump is for small aircrafts carrier , no ?
Is there a embarked plane which would need such a system ?
How many additional planes can be embarked ?  Not much .

I find also strange , the design of the elevators .













Offline SOC

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2013, 07:01:27 pm »
A ski jump with a catapult ? For what ? With 80000 tons the catapults are enough .

Maybe this reduces wear or is more efficient somehow?


The ski jump is for small aircrafts carrier , no ?
Is there a embarked plane which would need such a system ?


Admiral Kuznetsov isn't exactly small, neither is the Chinese version, and they both use ski-jumps for Su-27 derivatives.


Maybe that's the answer:  combining a short cat with the ski-jump is enough to get a fully loaded FLANKER or PAK-FA into the air.


How many additional planes can be embarked ?  Not much .

As many as they can fit into the hangar deck?

I find also strange , the design of the elevators .


Howso?  They look big enough to move the PAK-FA around.

Offline Cadre

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2013, 02:51:06 am »
Maybe they're EM catapults combined with a ski-jump?
So does that mean that the aircraft will be hitting the ski jump at full take off speed?

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #96 on: July 26, 2013, 11:25:31 am »
When is the expected In service date....
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Offline Geoff_B

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2013, 01:42:57 pm »
When is the expected In service date....

At the moment its only a long term requirement for the 2020's, they haven't selected a design yet, the Navy focus os on the new Submarines, Frigates and seeing how they get on building their own edition of the Mistral class.

Model looks nice but AFAIK it just there to show they are now looking to replace the Kuznetsov eventually (and drop hints to prospective customers)

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #98 on: November 27, 2013, 08:04:53 am »
There are probably a host of other lost carrier designs out there too.

Vadim Kolnogorov's article 'To Be or Not To Be: The Development of Soviet Deck Aviation' in The Journal of Strategic Studies, Vol. 28, No. 2, 339 – 359, April 2005, is an interesting overview.

A commission (including a sub-commission on carriers) was set up by Kuznetsov in early January 1945. The sub-committee's report was 'Considerations on the Selection of Aircraft Carriers for the USSR Navy'. The commission presented 33 variants of aircraft carrier designs 24 convoy carriers, 3 light carriers, 4 squadron carriers and 2 heavy aircraft carriers. These were the four classes of carrier the commission felt they needed. The Navy General Staff called for 9 large (6 Pacific, 3 Northern) and 6 small carriers (all Northern). The government wanted this number reduced. A later joint NII-45/ TsKB-17 study was the 1959-60 30 aircraft PBIA (floating dock for fighter aviation) to avoid the term aircraft carrier!

The article raises a couple of interesting aircraft questions. While the Pr.85 was being designed, Kuznetsov sent a draft report to the government for the Ministry of Shipbuilding’s approval which included proposals for a light carrier with 22 MiG-15 and two helicopters. Kolnogorov mentions another aircraft project at this time, a proposal named Tigr (Tiger) based on the MiG-19. What was this variant and was it a MiG submission? A table shows the naval MiG-15 and Tigr both being in design in 1955 and both being cancelled the following year. A later 'Fighter Jet Tender' is dated in the table to 1959-61. These were terminated as the PBIA study was abandoned and the shift made to helicopter cruisers but no detail on the fighters in the tender are offered.

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2013, 11:55:31 am »
Yeah I could kill someone for few days in Severnaya design bureuys archives with a scanner...
 
But in seriousness, the soviet carrier aircraft development is far more mysterious than the actual carrier development (at least for me who has been interessed over it for so long now) up until the pr. 1160 from which onwards the air crews are rather well known. There is some carrier planes like the famous Tu-91 bomber and not so well known Tupolev project 509 design as well as NII's turboprop torbedobomber mentioned in various sources but none of them are never mentioned in any of the sources about the actual carrier projects. Pr. 85 dating 1954 would fit the same timeframe as Tu-91 but there is no mentioning of the plane in any of the references about Pr.85 (most notably in the Gangut n:o 12 article).

Offline Hood

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2013, 06:28:56 am »
The Kolnogorov article mentions the Tu-91 at the same time as the Pr.85 but does not specifically say it was connected to that ship. It seems fighters were the main carrier-based tool; "A series of scientific-technical and experimental engineering tasks were designated for the aircraft carrier design process, as was the realization in 1956–57 of top-priority undertakings to create a deckbased fighter jet, catapult, batsmen, a land-based training and experimental flight-deck and others." This seems to imply a strong emphasis on fighter-defence of the fleet than any long-range strike force.

The table of projects makes reference to the 507 and 509 aircraft. 507: in development 1950, cancelled 1951; 509: in development 1950-53, cancelled 1954. The Tu-91 was developed from 1953 and cancelled in 1957. The Pr.85 was developed 1953-56. So 507 and 509 predate it, Tu-91 perfectly ties with those dates, as do the MiG-17/ Tigr fighter projects. The later 1959-61 Jet Fighter Tender is somewhat later. 

Offline stashandr

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2014, 06:22:56 am »
Another view of Mercury


« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 03:03:04 pm by flateric »

Offline stashandr

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2014, 06:31:25 am »
CV from Nevskoe design bureau (late 80s):
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 03:02:39 pm by flateric »

Offline gollevainen

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2014, 01:47:45 am »
Nice to see new angle pics of these designs. That last one has intrigued me quite along now, would die a little to get some info about it's lenght/displacement.

Offline M. A. Rozon

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2014, 04:25:35 am »
Nice to see new angle pics of these designs. That last one has intrigued me quite along now, would die a little to get some info about it's lenght/displacement.

Offhand, I would say that it is probably very close, if not identical, to Project 1143. The proportions of all components seem to match as do the sizes of the aircraft with respect to the ship. The ski-jump flight deck portion of the flight deck replacing the missile and gun batteries does change the appearance a bit with the length overall probably being increased a bit but everything else seems to match.
 
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Offline blackstar

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2014, 06:01:56 am »
Is there any good article (in English) that describes Soviet/Russian aircraft carrier projects?

Offline Triton

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #106 on: February 01, 2014, 02:36:13 pm »
From paralay via Google Translate:

Quote
Design and construction of perspective for the Russian Navy aircraft carrier can cost the state budget of 400 billion rubles. It is reported by the Central Navy Portal, citing a Krylovskogo state scientific center, the project developer promising concept ship. Cost carrier directly estimated at 80 billion rubles.

Model aircraft carrier sea complex displacement of about [80,000] tons was presented at the International Maritime Defense Show, held in St. Petersburg. According to the publication, the ship will receive two jumping and four catapults, and Fleet Air Arm aircraft carrier will ship up to 40 multi-role combat aircraft: deck version of the fighter T-50 (PAK FA) and MiG-29K/KUB. Concept project involves the installation of non-nuclear aircraft carrier at the power plant.

According to preliminary data, the features of the project will allow the ship to reach speeds up to 30 knots, despite the large size and displacement. Earlier it was reported that the design of a new aircraft carrier for the Russian Navy will be completed in 2018, four years later than previously planned. In the same year, and is scheduled to begin construction of the ship.

In the current program of armaments for 2011-2020 Russian design and construction of an aircraft carrier is not included, but it is expected that the funding of this project will be included in a new program for 2016-2025 years arms. This document is expected to be presented to the President of Russia in 2015.

Source:
http://paralay.com/atakr.html
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 02:49:15 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #107 on: February 01, 2014, 08:27:38 pm »
Previous aircraft carrier design based upon modified Project 1143.7 Ulyanovsk-class design.

Source:
http://paralay.com/atakr.html
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/AW_XXI_01.html
http://takr-kiev.ucoz.com/forum/105-169-2
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 10:28:56 pm by Triton »

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2014, 04:56:36 am »
Another view of Mercury


Sorry gents, but do we have more details on this "Mercury" carrier project? i.e. Project number etc??
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Offline H_K

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2014, 02:10:40 pm »
Aircraft Carrier Projects "Mercury" and "Dolphin" (loose translation)
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-370.html
http://topwar.ru/1601-povoroty-syuzheta.html

Schemes for an air defense task force leader capable of operating Yak-141 VTOL fighters were drawn up in 1986 by Northern PKB (Leningrad), under chief designer A.K. Shnyrov. Complete freedom of design was given to explore alternatives and find novel solutions within a 16,500 ton displacement limit.

Three alternatives were drawn up: 'Mercury', a 225 meter long conventional monohull and "Dolphin", a 140-170 meter long small waterplane area hull in catamaran and trimaran versions. The SWATH hulls had better seakeeping, but only a small hangar in the island, since there was no space below deck. Target air group was at least 10 Yak-141 fighters and 4 helicopters.

Development was discontinued in the early 1990s with the cancellation of the Yak-141.

Edit: Sorry for the earlier hotlinking... didn't know how to attach pictures. I removed some double-posted pics - see Pometablava's earlier post for those.
Source: see the two links above.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 03:02:47 pm by H_K »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2014, 02:15:15 pm »
Is there a reason why we are hotlinking rather attaching the model photographs?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #111 on: February 03, 2014, 09:53:42 am »
Well, triton is absolutely right, we are well advised to attach photos or drawings directly,
so avoiding the danger of losing information in the case of changes or deletions to the source
site. And even in the case of hotlinking, please don't forget to mention the original source, thank you !
;)
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Offline kaiserbill

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #112 on: February 09, 2015, 06:16:17 am »

At 1:24 to 1:50 on this new video of a naval/hydrodynamics institute, there is a Russian aircraft carrier model that isn't on this thread so far, as far as I can see.


It has two islands, and the model has Sukhoi T-50/PAK FA models on the flight deck.
There is also a label on it, but I don't read or understand Russian.


Can somebody who speaks the language please give a description of what this is?

Also, in light of Triton and Jemibas remarks above, can somebody less technologically challenged than me try and grab the images from the video so as to post it here for keeps?


EDIT:
I see this has just in the last few hours been posted to youtube, and the description says the Krylov State Research Centre.
So I've modified the link below. The request of a pic grab from the video is still a good idea IMHO...




« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 06:23:19 am by kaiserbill »

Offline blackstar

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #113 on: February 09, 2015, 07:10:52 pm »
Here you go.

Offline blackstar

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #114 on: February 09, 2015, 07:11:23 pm »
And the rest.

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #115 on: February 10, 2015, 02:24:00 am »
Thanks Blackstar.


I've not seen this design before.
It looks large, with a beam in the Nimitz class size if the scaling of the aircraft models are even roughly correct.


Anybody know anything further about it?
What is that label/description in the first pic, and what was said in the video?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 02:26:02 am by kaiserbill »

Offline archipeppe

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #116 on: February 10, 2015, 04:25:47 am »
Thanks Blackstar.


I've not seen this design before.
It looks large, with a beam in the Nimitz class size if the scaling of the aircraft models are even roughly correct.


Anybody know anything further about it?
What is that label/description in the first pic, and what was said in the video?


Except for the island design (that it seems to be a brand new one) the general ship's layout is reminiscent of the previous (and never realized) Ulyianovsk class of mid 80's.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2015, 04:29:17 am »
This model of future Russian aircraft carrier is designed by the Krylov Shipbuilding Research Institute and was unveiled at the International Maritime Defence Show 2013 in St. Petersburg, Russia.
If I remember correctly, this model is a non-nuclear version of a concept by Krylov.
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Offline kaiserbill

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #118 on: February 10, 2015, 11:36:54 am »
Thanks fightingIrish.


I've had a google, and there is indeed one or two (blurred) pics of the model on the net from St Petersburg, if one puts the research institutes name in for the search.

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #119 on: February 10, 2015, 11:55:39 am »
Here you go.

Many thanks, blackstar:)

Offline blackstar

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2015, 08:33:10 pm »
My Carrier4 picture is actually of the cruiser model, not the carrier, but I'll leave it there. One thing is missing from the video is a good panning shot of the entire model.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2015, 02:43:49 am »
Frame grabs of the Russian cruiser concept shown earlier in the video. I'm certain we had a topic devoted to a Russian Federation Kirov-class battlecruiser replacement program, but for the life of me, I can't seem to find it.

Good work! I took the liberty of cross-posting your screenshots for you.
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Offline stashandr

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #122 on: February 13, 2015, 11:31:35 pm »
Additional foto:

Offline JohnR

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2015, 03:26:25 pm »
Any details re the power plant, are they going for the QE and PoW under the islands solution?

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2015, 06:44:58 pm »
The E-2Dski model is cute, but so far we've not seen much indication of a real CV AEWC program.

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2015, 06:57:53 pm »
The E-2Dski model is cute, but so far we've not seen much indication of a real CV AEWC program.


It was a going project in the 1980s. The Yak-44


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2290.0.html
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Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #127 on: February 15, 2015, 11:37:58 am »
They are certainly interested in bigger ships, apparently the Sevmash basin will be enlarged at some point. Though I still can't see something of this scale ever actually being built in Russia.

Offline pedrospe

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #128 on: February 16, 2015, 08:23:43 am »
One of the smartest concepts in naval aircraft carriers, was the skyjump deck,since all russian naval aircraft fighters tend to be big,they are already thinking on a navalised t-50,the future russian carrier design will most likely to retain this feature.


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Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2015, 09:15:12 am »
Not sure why we have a topic about this project in "The Bar" considering that we have photographs of a model of this aircraft carrier concept taken at Krylov State Research Centre:

"Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carrier Concepts"
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1948.msg241866.html#msg241866

« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:21:02 am by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2015, 09:48:35 am »
Magazine illustration of the aircraft carrier concept?

Source:
http://sandrermakoff.livejournal.com/372282.html
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 10:05:53 am by Triton »

Offline fredymac

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2015, 03:31:47 pm »
Magazine illustration of the aircraft carrier concept?

Source:
http://sandrermakoff.livejournal.com/372282.html

If that is a ski ramp on the angled deck, how do they do a "bolter"?  How fast can you take a vertical ramp before your gear collapses? 

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #132 on: February 18, 2015, 12:44:50 pm »
BTW, I'm nearly surprised, that nobody called it "Queenski Elizabethski" ... ;D

I was waiting for that.  :P There is no smiley for groan. LOL!  :)

Offline Brickmuppet

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #133 on: February 18, 2015, 02:35:33 pm »
"Queenski Elizabethski"
[/size]
[/size]Because in Russia, ski-jumps come in sets of two.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #134 on: February 19, 2015, 05:32:36 pm »
One of the smartest concepts in naval aircraft carriers, was the skyjump deck,since all russian naval aircraft fighters tend to be big,they are already thinking on a navalised t-50,the future russian carrier design will most likely to retain this feature.

Dunno if I would call it "one of the smartest" because there are other major developments that were more important, starting with the angled deck.

But can a ski jump be used with a catapult? The ski jump is a compromise, and it comes at a cost of performance. It limits the range and payload of aircraft that can be launched.

Offline blackstar

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #135 on: February 20, 2015, 05:37:04 am »
Magazine illustration of the aircraft carrier concept?

Source:
http://sandrermakoff.livejournal.com/372282.html

Significant difference in the bow configuration. This photo shows two ski jumps near the bow, whereas the other shows the angled deck edge farther back. The islands on the model are also smaller.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 05:38:40 am by blackstar »

Offline sferrin

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #136 on: February 20, 2015, 05:38:34 am »
But can a ski jump be used with a catapult? The ski jump is a compromise, and it comes at a cost of performance. It limits the range and payload of aircraft that can be launched.

If you have a catapult you don't need the ski jump.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #137 on: February 20, 2015, 01:35:47 pm »
...The ski jump is a compromise, and it comes at a cost of performance. It limits the range and payload of aircraft that can be launched.

Not sure where it was stated, I think in Robert Jacksons book about the Sea Harrier: An advantage of the
ski jump is, that aircraft are launched in a steeper upward trajectory, useful in very heavy seas, that may
limit carriers with catapults, because the launched aircraft would hit the waves.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #138 on: February 20, 2015, 03:49:19 pm »
Somewhere in the recesses of my mind, I recall an article that stated that during the Falklands the Ski Jump allowed the Harriers; with the upward trajectory imparted on them, to be operated in much worse sea conditions than would have been possible with a US carrier.  I would be very interested to hear how you gents would regard this.
 
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Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #139 on: February 20, 2015, 06:59:07 pm »
If that is a ski ramp on the angled deck, how do they do a "bolter"?

It actually helps with a bolter. If you miss the wire or the wire/hook breaks the ski jump at the end of the landing deck gives the bolting aircraft an additional boost of altitude. This can be quite important if you have been slowed down a bit by the gear before a failure or if your aircraft has lost an engine. Also in the case of a failure in which the aircraft has been slowed right down but not to a stop the ramp will likely stop you from going over the edge of a deck and into the water.
 
How fast can you take a vertical ramp before your gear collapses?

You obviously don’t fit a ramp to your ship if the jump incline is too steep for the gear to survive at landing speeds. This is likely not to be a problem as the gear on naval CTOL and V/STOL aircraft are designed to survive the very strong forces of high sink rates at landing.
 
But can a ski jump be used with a catapult?

Yes it can. As long as the means of attaching the aircraft to the catapult is compatible. The old method of using wire strops that are flung off the end (or caught by bow horns) is not compatible as it will collide with the ramp and aircraft. But fixed attachment points like the USN’s standard nose gear set up will have no problem as long as the jump incline isn't so steep it will plough into the ramp.
 
The ski jump is a compromise, and it comes at a cost of performance. It limits the range and payload of aircraft that can be launched.

No the ski jump isn’t a compromise. It is for ships that can’t have catapults. In which case it’s much better than just a flat deck. I don’t think anyone choses ski jumps over catapults. But if you can’t build the later the ski jump is a free gift of altitude to the launching aircraft and slight cost to the ship.
 
If you have a catapult you don't need the ski jump.

You can have both. An aircraft with the added velocity of a catapult and the added altitude of a ski jump can take-off with more weight and/or less engine power than one without one (or two) of these boosts.
 
Not sure where it was stated, I think in Robert Jacksons book about the Sea Harrier: An advantage of the ski jump is, that aircraft are launched in a steeper upward trajectory, useful in very heavy seas, that may limit carriers with catapults, because the launched aircraft would hit the waves.

No this is not true. If the ship is in waves that are coming over the bow no one is launching aircraft. And in a pitching ship without a ski jump the crew just wait until the ship is pitched up to launch the aircraft. It can actually help the launch dynamics but of course make it far harder to land.
 
Somewhere in the recesses of my mind, I recall an article that stated that during the Falklands the Ski Jump allowed the Harriers; with the upward trajectory imparted on them, to be operated in much worse sea conditions than would have been possible with a US carrier.  I would be very interested to hear how you gents would regard this.

This isn’t true. The advantage of the Sea Harrier in heavy seas was they could land much easier on pitching decks. Because the aircraft could land straight down in the centre of the deck and not suffer from the deck pitch at the rear of the flight deck.
 
The ski jump works like every other ramp. A simple machine that provides horizontal acceleration at little cost.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 07:01:25 pm by Abraham Gubler »
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Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2015, 07:59:06 pm »
Thank you for your informative post, Abraham.

Offline ouroboros

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #141 on: February 28, 2015, 05:45:13 am »
EMALS catapults in theory could follow the curve of a ski jump to the end, as curved linear motor track is not new engineering. I suppose in theory a steam catapult could too (it is basically a slotted cylinder with a riding piston), but that's a lot harder compared to EMALS.

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2015, 06:57:18 pm »
EMALS catapults in theory could follow the curve of a ski jump to the end, as curved linear motor track is not new engineering. I suppose in theory a steam catapult could too (it is basically a slotted cylinder with a riding piston), but that's a lot harder compared to EMALS.


I was assuming the catapult track would end before the incline of the ski jump starts. The aircraft would hit the ramp with a velocity thanks to the impulse of the catapult. Which would be much higher than if it was just reliant on the acceleration provided by its own thrust.
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Offline stashandr

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #143 on: March 21, 2015, 06:32:07 am »
Project 1160 (or an early 1153)

Offline starviking

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #144 on: March 21, 2015, 06:50:56 am »
And an Alaskan Taxiway to the right of the island. Some CVA-01 inspiration?

Offline Geoff_B

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #145 on: March 21, 2015, 02:43:38 pm »
And an Alaskan Taxiway to the right of the island. Some CVA-01 inspiration?

Look at the Island, look at the layout, very much a CVA-01 angled deck inspired design

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #146 on: March 21, 2015, 04:56:11 pm »
Appears to even have the three shaft machinery.  Any specs available on it?
 
Also seems to be an appropriate point to ask a somewhat related question.  Why do Soviet/Russian carriers always have such massive islands?
 
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #147 on: March 21, 2015, 05:33:14 pm »
Isn't it some variation on the "Soviet Microchips are the BIGGEST microchips in the WORLD" joke?
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #148 on: March 21, 2015, 05:49:25 pm »
Appears to even have the three shaft machinery.  Any specs available on it?
 
Also seems to be an appropriate point to ask a somewhat related question.  Why do Soviet/Russian carriers always have such massive islands?
 
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #150 on: March 29, 2015, 07:36:00 am »
Project 1153 is 1977 year design.

You forget light aircraft carrier (1968) - nuclear or conventionally powered, 50000 t, 280x60 m, 38 aircrafts (attached).


Good day gentlemen,

Having dwelled into the fascinating world of soviet/russian carrier projects,  i realize the above depiction is  of a half-real half-fictious CV, i can see what looks like speculative MiG-21/Su-17 based carrier aircraft, but what about the twin engined aircraft with foldable straight wings (parked on the fantail f.e.), is it completely  fictious or it has some basis in a real project, and if that's so, anyone knows who designed it and what is it called? Many thanks for any input.

Oh and i'd just like to add that Gollevainen's work on the subject (soviet/russian carriers and artwork) is fantastic.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #151 on: March 29, 2015, 10:11:12 am »
Quote
but what about the twin engined aircraft with foldable straight wings (parked on the fantail f.e.), is it completely  fictious or it has some basis in a real project, and if that's so, anyone knows who designed it and what is it called?


KOR-70 (Kor.SVVP-70) shipboard multi purpose VTOL aircraft. 1969 V. Korchagin was a Bartini OKB engineer.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #152 on: March 29, 2015, 01:31:53 pm »
Thats an old drawing of mine for a alternative universum project I was doing back in the days. It's based on the so called AVL project, a real but little known carrier project dating back to later 60's. All the system fit and armaments are mostly purely fictional in that drawing. Also as for the aircrafts, those are again fictional carrier versions based on Su-11 and Su-17 series and the twin engined aircraft is a fictional AEW/ASW aircraft based on the Korchagin KOR-70 VSTOL aircraft.

Due the sudden new burst of reference material regarding the soviet carriers, I most likely will return to them once again in later this year and I will do a new version (to its proper real life never-where suite) of AVL as well.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #153 on: March 29, 2015, 01:47:54 pm »
Thank you gents for your practically instantaneous help, and looking very much forward to your future work Gollevainen. :)

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2015, 04:05:06 am »
Quote

Russia developing Shtorm supercarrier


Nikolai Novichkov, Moscow - IHS Jane's Defence WeeklyRussia's Krylovsky State Research Center (KRSC) has developed a new multipurpose heavy aircraft carrier design called Project 23000E or Shtorm (Storm).

The model features a split air wing comprising navalised T-50 PAKFAs and MiG-29Ks, as well as jet-powered naval early warning aircraft and Ka-27 naval helicopters.


A scale model of the ship is going to be demonstrated for the first time at the International Maritime Defence Show 2015 in St Petersburg from 1-5 July, Valery Polyakov, the deputy director of KSC, told IHS Jane's .
"The Project 23000E multipurpose aircraft carrier is designed to conduct operations in remote and oceanic areas, engage land-based and sea-borne enemy targets, ensure the operational stability of naval forces, protect landing troops, and provide the anti-aircraft defence," Polyakov said.
The design has a displacement of 90-100,000 tons, is 330 m in length, 40 m wide, and has a draft of 11 m. It has a top speed of 30 kt, cruising speed of 20 kt, a 120-day endurance, a crew of 4-5,000, and designed to withstand sea state 6-7. Currently it has been designed with a conventional power plant, although this could be replaced by a nuclear one, according to potential customers' requirements.
The ship carries a powerful air group of 80-90 deck-based aircraft for various combat missions. The model features a split air wing comprising navalised T-50 PAKFAs and MiG-29Ks, as well as jet-powered naval early warning aircraft, and Ka-27 naval helicopters.
The carrier's flight deck is of a dual design, features an angled flight deck, and four launching positions: two via ski-jump ramps and two via electromagnetic catapults. One set of arrestor gear is included in the design. The design also features two islands; a feature only previously seen on the latest UK design.
Protection against air threats will be provided by four anti-aircraft missile system combat modules. An anti-torpedo armament suite is available.
The electronic support complex includes integrated sensors, including a multifunction phased array radar, electronic warfare system, and communications suite.
Polyakov pointed out that these specifications are subject to change, correction, and modification during the ship's design and development at every stage of work, once potential customers come up with a demand to change the weapons package and equipment.
[...]
Source: http://www.janes.com/article/51452/russia-developing-shtorm-supercarrier
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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2015, 04:56:43 am »
So this is still a designers dream? No real hints of interest from Russian Navy?
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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #157 on: May 22, 2015, 10:04:28 am »
I wonder if this project will generate interest in Dehli and/or Beijing.

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #158 on: May 22, 2015, 10:28:31 am »
They can't even build their own Mistral analog and they think they're going to turn out one of these anytime soon?   ???
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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #159 on: May 22, 2015, 07:02:25 pm »
They can't even build their own Mistral analog and they think they're going to turn out one of these anytime soon?   ???

And to be honest, a Mistral analog would be better than a single big CV. The Russian's don't have the logistics network to support long range deployments and they can't beat the USN (at all). A ship like a mistral, say with knock off Harriers or even just helicopters is a lot more useful in the day to day term than a single super carrier would be.

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #160 on: May 22, 2015, 10:02:15 pm »
Beijing's surface ship building industrial capabilities probably will be superior than Russia soon if not already.  At least they been pumping warships of all sizes like ape shit crazy, while Russia is struggling to build one frigate,much less anything larger.  I don't see what interest a few miniature models that Russia put on tv gonna generate with China. 

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #161 on: May 23, 2015, 08:35:27 am »
Russia is struggling to build one frigate,much less anything larger.


That doesn't make much sense.


They're currently building or have already launched the largest SSN design yet seen (5 units), as well as the second largest SSBN design yet designed (6 units).


Within the last decade or so, they built 6 frigates for the Indian navy, the 4000 ton Talwar class, and have either launched or laid down 5 Admiral Grigorovich (4100t) and 4 Admiral Gorshkov class (4600t).


The engine issues were really political, and a hangover from the USSR period and way of doing things. It appears now that there will be a 2 year delay whilst production of the turbine units are transferred to their co-developers in Russia.
Ditto for the Mistral, which seems to have been a political decision, more than anything else. The 2 Russian portions, which includes some of the more technical building requirements, were launched on time and on budget, before being shipped to France for joining up with the French portion.


I'm not saying their shipbuilding industry isn't having issues, but it is worth bearing in mind that they have reorganised the entire industry, quite a task in itself, and it appears as if some segments did well, and others not so well.


On topic, I doubt very much they'll build large carriers anytime soon though. One suspects that other programmes will enjoy higher priorities.











« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 08:53:13 am by kaiserbill »

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #162 on: May 29, 2015, 03:29:07 am »
Sorry but first of all how will they pay for all this - besides the PAK-FA, PAK-DA, the re-newed Tu-160-production ....  ??? - and even more where should this carrier be build ??

by the way You mentioned the largest RuN vessel build with a displacement of 4600t .... just compare how many Type 052D destroyers were laid down or even finished in parallel in China (with 7500t each), what's about the Type 071 LPDs (about 20.000t) ... I really do not want to start a comparative contest, but the Russian shipbuilding industry is a shadow of its former capabilities and this can't be corrected within a few years.

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #163 on: May 29, 2015, 05:26:19 am »
Deino, if you re-read through my post and the quote I'm answering, you will see that the statement that "Russia is struggling to build one frigate" is not bourne out by any facts.
I provided examples.



I was not comparing their building rate to China.
That would be silly, which is why I never mentioned it in my post.
Nobody on the planet right now is building as many naval vessels as China.


Apart from that, we are in broad agreement, as can be seen by my statements:




Quote
I'm not saying their shipbuilding industry isn't having issues, but it is worth bearing in mind that they have reorganised the entire industry, quite a task in itself, and it appears as if some segments did well, and others not so well.


On topic, I doubt very much they'll build large carriers anytime soon though. One suspects that other programmes will enjoy higher priorities.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2015, 02:11:10 pm »

Quote
The Krylov State Research Center Lavina, 'Avalanche' in English, class of helicopter carrier has been developed to replace the Mistral-class warships within the Russian Navy. The Lavina class ship feature a displacement of 24,000 tons and a semi-trimaran hull design capable to sail 5,000 nautical miles at 18 knots without a port call and a maximum speed of 22 knots. The crew consists of 320-man and an additional 500 troops/marines with 50 armored vehicles and six landing crafts. The Lavina helicopter carrier project was unveiled at Army-2015 exhibition outside Moscow on June 19, 2015.

Lavina Specifications

Crew: 320
Number of Aircraft: 16
Number of Landing Crafts: 6
Number of Vehicles: 50
Troops: 500

Performance
Max Range: 5,000 nautical mile (9,260 kilometer)
Speed
Economical Speed: 18 knots
Top Speed: 22 knots (11.3 mps)
Weight
Full Displacement: 24,000 tons

Source:
http://interdefensa.argentinaforo.net/t6824p75-todo-sobre-los-portahelicopteros-clase-mistral-para-rusia
http://www.deagel.com/Carrier-and-Landing-Ships/Lavina_a003202001.aspx

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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2015, 02:20:40 pm »
Storm Supercarrier model unveiled in St Petersburg

Published on Jul 17, 2015

Quote
The model of the new aircraft carrier, the Storm Supercarrier, was unveiled in St Petersburg, Friday. The carrier is designed to accommodate the needs of multiple combat situations, in a variety of conditions and is capable of striking at either sea or land targets.


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Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier
« Reply #166 on: September 23, 2015, 12:33:54 am »
Yeah, no.  When was the last time Russia built a carrier?  I think we're seeing a desing project that will swiftly and silently vanish away when the full cost becomes apparent. 

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #167 on: September 23, 2015, 01:27:51 am »
Are they serious? Going to build a large vessel with a hullform that may work in a small vessel (similar hydrostatic and aerostatic concept to the M-Hull but without the finesse) without a trials vessel first? Or maybe this will be a round about way to build the first submersing amphibious assault ship? Might just have a problem getting it to surface after that first submerge.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #168 on: September 23, 2015, 05:44:12 am »
Here a (older) CGI-Video of the Storm Supercarrier project.

Code: [Select]
https://youtu.be/hgD_WO2GfJo
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2015, 09:34:10 pm »
"Russia’s Future Aircraft Carrier Project 23000E Storm Will Be Nuclear-Powered According to OCK"
Monday, 10 August 2015 14:58

Source:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2976

Quote
According to Russian state owned news agency TASS citing a spokesman for the United Shipbuilding Corporation (OCK), Russia’s future aircraft carrier Project 23000E "Storm" will have to be equipped with a nuclear power plant.

A nuclear powered Project 23000E Storm aircraft carrier may displace 80,000 to 85,000 tonnes with some 70 aircraft on board.

"The project of a future Russian aircraft carrier, or as it is sometimes referred to as naval aircraft carrying complex, is in the design phase. Research conducted by the Nevskoye Design Bureau indicates that the sole way of meeting the Navy’s requirements, such as power generation, sea endurance and voyage range is to equip the ship with a nuclear power plant," the source said.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #170 on: December 30, 2015, 03:50:38 am »
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/more-jdams-headed-for-middle-east-russias-usc-plans-to-begin-aircraft-carrier-production-in-2019-pakistan-looks-to-procure-f-16s-over-home-grown-jf-17s-032288/

Quote
Europe

■ Russia’s state-owned United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) believes it will commence manufacturing aircraft carriers from 2019, according to the company’s president, Alexey Rakmanov. USC is currently undergoing modernization works of their technological capabilities, and if completed on time, will be able to commence building the vessels required to transport and launch helicopters and aircraft. The only Russian aircraft carrier in service is the Soviet era Admiral Kuznetsov and is expected to be in service until 2030 after mid life refits over the last few years. The announcement comes alongside projected 2015 income for the company at between $4.48-4.5 billion, and as much as $212.34 million in net profits. In 2014, the US Department of Treasury added USC to the Financial Sanctions List as a result of Russia’s involvement in the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #172 on: September 18, 2016, 11:52:20 am »
Polit Russia - Storm Nuclear Aircraft Carrier Simulation
Video:

Code: [Select]
https://youtu.be/lo1MaIsWLdcLink (Russian): http://politrussia.com/vooruzhennye-sily/sozdanie-avianosnoy-udarnoy-561/
 :-\ C-17 AWACS CIG at 0:55.

Quote
«Shtorm» heavy aircraft carrier [Project 23000] designed by Russian Krylov State Research Center via sandrermakoff
Source: https://twitter.com/Missilito/status/775369104165314562
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #173 on: September 19, 2016, 12:48:35 pm »

 :-\ C-17 AWACS CIG at 0:55.

I beleive the video's also claiming it would be "arctic-rated" and have a larger air wing than a Ford. The forward island appears to be a poor copy of the former Enterprise's island as well, heh.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #174 on: September 20, 2016, 01:27:17 am »
I'm going to chime in here with one industry opinion and point out that although Krylov's hydrodynamics and other fundamentals are top-notch, their naval concept ship design is legendarily nonsensical and everything above the waterline should be regarded as "industrial design" rather than "naval architecture". i.e. purple crayons.

 
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #175 on: November 16, 2016, 02:29:38 am »
On a side note, via HP&CA:

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #176 on: November 17, 2016, 06:10:41 pm »
I'm going to chime in here with one industry opinion and point out that although Krylov's hydrodynamics and other fundamentals are top-notch, their naval concept ship design is legendarily nonsensical and everything above the waterline should be regarded as "industrial design" rather than "naval architecture". i.e. purple crayons.

Just looking at it again do you think the entire green area (anti marine fouling) is to be submerged or is it meant to be a catamaran?  If its the former I can see some advantages (though it would be very hard to build) but if the later its crazy.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #177 on: November 18, 2016, 05:23:08 am »
I think it's supposed to be fully submerged. It's an interesting way of making a large ship that can be beached, but it's going to have higher resistance due to the increased wetted surface area.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #178 on: November 18, 2016, 06:02:52 am »
And beaching a ship like that is just a dumb idea. 

It's also clear that whoever designed it has little idea how beaching operations are actually done.  There's no sign of a stern anchor or winch to retract the ship off the beach, for starters.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #179 on: March 29, 2017, 12:37:18 pm »
Via DTIC, a Center for Naval Analyses paper from 1984 titled 'Aircraft Carriers in Soviet Naval Theory from 1960 to the Falklands War'.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #180 on: March 30, 2017, 03:34:57 pm »
Why would you want to beach the aircraft carrier? 

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #181 on: March 30, 2017, 04:39:20 pm »
Quote
Why would you want to beach the aircraft carrier?

It's an LST, too - there is a vehicle ramp at the bow. It's not a completely absurd idea, if you want a single vessel to have multiple methods of landing a force, it's just...  very crowded conceptually.
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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #183 on: September 16, 2017, 04:56:15 pm »
"Russia Naval Industry Able to Produce 115000-ton Aircraft Carriers by 2020"

September 7, 2017

Source:
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/september-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5557-russia-naval-industry-able-to-produce-115000-ton-aircraft-carriers-by-2020.html

Quote
The Russian industry will be able to produce aircraft carriers with a displacement of 110-115 thousand tons by 2020, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told Russia 24 TV channel.

"We create new shipyards and build a new gigantic dry dock in the Far East. If the order is received for an aircraft carrier with a displacement of 110000-115000 tons it will be physically possible to build it beginning from 2020," he said.

The Russian aircraft carrier will be considerably less costly than US analogues, he added.
Rogozin said orders for such warships depend on the needs of the General Headquarters which determine the necessity of combat engagement of aircraft carriers.

The production facility for such warships can be Zvezda Shipyard in the Far East where a 114-meter wide dry dock is being constructed. "Now we have no limitations by the tonnage of civilian vessels and warships which we can build there," Rogozin said.

The Russian Navy earlier said it plans to get a perspective nuclear aircraft carrier by 2030. Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said the contract for the construction of a new aircraft carrier can be signed in late 2025. Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov said the detailed design of the aircraft-carrying warship has been created and submitted to the Russian Defense Ministry.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #184 on: September 17, 2017, 12:58:27 am »
When was the first news leaked out that Russia wants to build multiple supercarriers by mid century? 2010?

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #185 on: September 17, 2017, 03:05:12 am »
"The Russian aircraft carrier will be considerably less costly than US analogues, he added."

What I'm reading in this is "The Russian aircraft carrier will be considerably less capable than US analogues, he added."

There's reasons (nuclear) carriers are titanically expensive.

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #186 on: September 17, 2017, 12:52:01 pm »
Display at International Maritime Defence Show (IMDS-2017)

Source:
http://foto-i-mir.ru/23000e-shtorm-imds-2017/
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 12:54:58 pm by Triton »

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #187 on: September 17, 2017, 12:53:28 pm »
Display at International Maritime Defence Show (IMDS-2017)

Source:
http://foto-i-mir.ru/23000e-shtorm-imds-2017/
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 12:55:21 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #188 on: September 17, 2017, 01:03:50 pm »
Variant of Project 23000E displayed at Army 2015

Source:
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/23000-shtorm/

Offline Triton

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #189 on: September 17, 2017, 03:55:15 pm »
Via Google Translate:

AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIP «PRIBOI» ON THE FORUM «ARMY-2017″

Source:
http://bastion-opk.ru/priboi-army-2017/

Quote
At the International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" in Kubinka, the Krylov State Research Center presented once again the model and information on the universal landing craft "Surf". It provides reception, transportation by sea and disembarkation, in cooperation with other means of the fleet, on the unequipped coast of troops and equipment during the maritime landing operation; provision of maritime transport; the establishment of defensive mine and network obstacles and hydroacoustic buoys for positioning underwater surveillance systems. CHARACTERISTICS Displacement, t approx. 23 000 Length x width x of draft in KVL, m 200.0 x 34.0 x 7.5 Full / economic travel speed, knots 20/14 Range, miles 6 000 Autonomy for food, day 30 Crew, people. OK. 400 The main gas turbine power plant Number of forces / means carried: Marine Corps, people 500 x 900 Infantry fighting vehicles, units ok 50 Tanks, units OK. 10 MAIN ARMS AND SYSTEMS OF ARMAMENT Means of disembarkation: • landing craft with a load capacity of at least 45 tons - 6 units, • assault boats on davits - 6 units, • transport and landing and search and rescue helicopters - 10 + 2 units. Anti-aircraft weapons of self-defense: • anti-aircraft missile and artillery complex - 2 combat modules, • Anti-aircraft artillery complex - 2 combat modules. Artillery armament: a universal artillery system - 76 mm. Radioelectronic and hydroacoustic arming of lighting the situation and control: • three-coordinate radar for general detection, • navigation complex, • an integrated subsystem of electronic warfare, • integrated communication complex, • system for detecting underwater diversionary forces and assets. Integrated system of combat control of the level of tactical and operational-tactical links.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 04:01:31 pm by Triton »

Offline Sherman Tank

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #190 on: September 18, 2017, 07:45:41 am »
When was the first news leaked out that Russia wants to build multiple supercarriers by mid century? 2010?

Sometime around then, I think a bit earlier in fact. I remember it being a small article in the International Herald Tribune from before that guy got offed with Polonium tea.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #191 on: November 06, 2018, 02:24:58 am »
Some interesting theories about how Naval Aviation Flankers and the Kuznetsov would have been employed in a WWIII scenario: http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24263
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline Grey Havoc

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The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline Edgar812

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #193 on: February 09, 2019, 06:34:17 am »
regards Comrades,



Here I leave the link of my latest work on the Project 1143.5 Kreml Admiral of the Soviet Union Fleet Kuznetsov, the most extensive compilation in Spanish, I hope you like it, if you have a correct or contribution That the best, in advance very grateful, is mentioned in a section of thanks for contributions made of the blog.

The article link:

http://armasrusasb.blogspot.com/2019/02/proyecto-11435-kreml-almirante-de-la.html

Source: Blog de Armas Rusas

Visit our !!!!



http://armasrusasb.blogspot.com/
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 06:36:50 am by Edgar812 »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #194 on: February 09, 2019, 12:56:43 pm »
That's an incredibly good article, and translates well.
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Offline Pioneer

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #195 on: February 09, 2019, 09:55:33 pm »
Display at International Maritime Defence Show (IMDS-2017)

Source:
http://foto-i-mir.ru/23000e-shtorm-imds-2017/

Thank's for the pics Triton!

The AEW aircraft, are they simply out of the hat depiction of AEW platform for sexiness, or do you think these might possibly be an actual project in development, do you think?


Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #196 on: February 10, 2019, 01:26:12 am »
.... or do you think these might possibly be an actual project in development, do you think?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2290.msg100553.html#msg100553  ?
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #197 on: February 10, 2019, 11:34:42 am »
.... or do you think these might possibly be an actual project in development, do you think?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2290.msg100553.html#msg100553  ?

Thank you Jemiba for the link, by the model on the deck of the model posted by Triton doesn't look like the Yak-44E 😉

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

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Offline TomS

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #198 on: February 10, 2019, 05:55:45 pm »
Looks very much like a Yak-44E to me, just with jet engines instead to props (or more likely just with the prop removed).

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #199 on: February 11, 2019, 07:43:10 am »
Pioneer has a point...
Tail design is completely different, as is the main wing planform, and cockpit.
Different radar support structure..
Main landing gear relocated from engine to fuselage.. due to jet engines..etc.
Either a new design, or it's a "generic" carrier AWACS model IMHO.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 07:49:18 am by kaiserbill »

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers
« Reply #200 on: February 11, 2019, 11:24:49 am »
Pioneer has a point...
Tail design is completely different, as is the main wing planform, and cockpit.
Different radar support structure..
Main landing gear relocated from engine to fuselage.. due to jet engines..etc.
Either a new design, or it's a "generic" carrier AWACS model IMHO.

As per my observation kaiserbill (although I didn't pick up on the relocation of landing gear - thank's)
Hence why I'm enquring, - just a simply speculative model to give the impression of a fully functional carrier air wing, I don't know?

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M