What if VJ-101C or its modified variants replaced F-4 and being adopted by Luftwaffe in ATL?

[StraGen410]

Guten Tag!

I really like the VJ-101C, it is like a German version of VTOL capable F-104G Starfighter clone without T-tail.

It seems to be promising with a lot of potential.

What will happen if it became a real operational military grade VTOL fighter jet instead of a short lived experimental aircraft in 1960s?

What modifications and armaments would it require to fit into Luftwaffe service, or even the Marineflieger?

Would it be practical to replace 4 of the RB.145 Engines attracting to its wings with 2 of the J79 Engines while making it truly Mach 2 capable?

Can it be armed with a 20mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon?

How could its developers do to overcome all the adversities that led to its OTL defunct in 1968 and keep the project survive?

I am not familiar with West Germany’s 1960s cold war history, so I would be grateful if you can work with me and help building the ATL of armed Luftwaffe VJ-101C fleet with your superior knowledge and prediction.




Danke!

 

[Scott Kenny]

The primary issue would be that the lift engines greatly cut into possible range of the aircraft in a combat mission.

Firstly by displacing fuel from the fuselage, and secondly by burning a lot of fuel during liftoff.

-------------------

Now, if we're strictly talking about the tilt-engine version, I'd strongly recommend against removing engines from the nacelles. Why? reliability in case of engine failure. If you have 2 engines each side, you might be able to recover if you lose one engine by chopping thrust on the side that still has both (this would likely have to be an automatic system to react fast enough).

If you only have 1 engine each side and lose that engine, you're absolutely losing that plane. Automatic ejection and you've got maybe 3 seconds to get clear to save the pilot.

 

[StraGen410]

If you have 2 engines each side, you might be able to recover if you lose one engine by chopping thrust on the side that still has both (this would likely have to be an automatic system to react fast enough).

Alright

I will keep the 6 engines and forget about the J79 engines, except these RB.145s would be replaced by the more proven J85 engines used by Bell D-188A and Northop F-5

I am waiting for the third or more commenters

 

[uk 75]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/ewr-vj-101a-b-c-d-e-vtol-fighter-projects.964/page-2#post-287659

You need to read this thread.
The VJ101D was proposed as the F104 replacement while the VAK 191 was started with Italy as a G91 replacement.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/vak-191-development-variants-prototypes.391/#post-93954

 

[uk 75]

Oh and my take on the Luftwaffe here

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/alternate-orders-of-battle-for-post-war-luftwaffe.15027/

 

[uk 75]

To support its aircraft in the field

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/german-v-stol-transport-passenger-projects.271/#post-56579

 

[uk 75]

This site is worth a look

German Jet VTOL: VJ 101C, Do 31, & VAK 191B

 

[Justo Miranda]

Guten Tag!

I really like the VJ-101C, it is like a German version of VTOL capable F-104G Starfighter clone without T-tail.

It seems to be promising with a lot of potential.

What will happen if it became a real operational military grade VTOL fighter jet instead of a short lived experimental aircraft in 1960s?

What modifications and armaments would it require to fit into Luftwaffe service, or even the Marineflieger?

Would it be practical to replace 4 of the RB.145 Engines attracting to its wings with 2 of the J79 Engines while making it truly Mach 2 capable?

Can it be armed with a 20mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon?

How could its developers do to overcome all the adversities that led to its OTL defunct in 1968 and keep the project survive?

I am not familiar with West Germany’s 1960s cold war history, so I would be grateful if you can work with me and help building the ATL of armed Luftwaffe VJ-101C fleet with your superior knowledge and prediction.

View attachment 767220


Danke!

Excellent illustrations!

In my opinion the VTOL technology of the sixties consumed excessive fuel at the expense of the payload, the VJ 101 would only have worked as an point-defense interceptor in a war of attrition in which all allied air bases had been contaminated with long-term chemical warfare. A desperate battle in which all the objectives worth defending would have already been hit by Soviet frontal aviation. In that type of warfare only an anti-tank aircraft would have been useful, but the armor would have further diminished the ability to carry bombs.

A dead end.

 

[zen]

Guten Tag!

I really like the VJ-101C, it is like a German version of VTOL capable F-104G Starfighter clone without T-tail.

It seems to be promising with a lot of potential.

Guten Abend.

What will happen if it became a real operational military grade VTOL fighter jet instead of a short lived experimental aircraft in 1960s?

It would impose severe constraints on the weaponry carried, unless it morphed into using STOVL.

What modifications and armaments would it require to fit into Luftwaffe service, or even the Marineflieger?

At the time the free fall nuclear bomb would be a prime candidate. But getting this past the US is It's chief issue.
Toting Komorran AShM is going to be priority for the Marineflieger.

Would it be practical to replace 4 of the RB.145 Engines attracting to its wings with 2 of the J79 Engines while making it truly Mach 2 capable?

No.
But it would be practical to utilise RR-MTU RB.153 variants.

Can it be armed with a 20mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon?

Why?

How could its developers do to overcome all the adversities that led to its OTL defunct in 1968 and keep the project survive?

The very basing concept of dispersed nukes was abandoned by the mid 60’s. Making ZELL a much simpler and more affordable solution.

 

[Dilandu]

I really like the VJ-101C, it is like a German version of VTOL capable F-104G Starfighter clone without T-tail.

Must confess, it's one of my favorites too)

 

[Dilandu]

Just a weird idea, but what about moving the wings forward & placing a third tilting engine pod on the rear (so all engines could produce useful thrust in horizontal flight)? Of course it would require a different tail arrangement, like V-shaped or twin tail...

 

[StraGen410]

Guten Abend.

I am happy to chat with a German aerospace fan

Honey Cake ( Honigkuchen ) and Black Forest Cake are some of my favourite German foods too

It would impose severe constraints on the weaponry carried, unless it morphed into using STOVL.

Agree, I will choose the STOVL for the ATL VJ-101D

At the time the free fall nuclear bomb would be a prime candidate. But getting this past the US is It's chief issue.

The Pro VJ-101D Luftwaffe higher ranked officers would require stronger and closer relationships and trust with their American counterparts as well as related mutually beneficial and technological exchanges for setting up the latter’s specialized nuclear bomb dispenser system on the VJ-101D

Just like how the Pro Iroquois class destroyer ( TRUMP ) Royal Canadian Navy higher ranked officers obtained the similar SM-2 missiles used by the Aegis warships from their American counterparts in 1990s

But of course, it would be difficult and time consuming

Toting Komorran AShM is going to be priority for the Marineflieger.

The Marineflieger version of VJ-101D would be less difficult to develop and more likely to be accepted in service

With its updated STOVL capabilities, it would be capable of even landing on and launching from allied aircraft carriers and modified cargo ships

But it would be practical to utilise RR-MTU RB.153 variants.

Both the VJ-101 and RB.153 programs had similar developmental delays as Avro Arrow and Orenda Iroquois,

So they need to begin and run earlier than the OTL, at least as early as the late 1950s or 1960, to increase their chances to survive

Why?

Because M61A1 was the most powerful and advanced Western aerial gun at its time especially in term of fire rate

And the German BK-27 cannon did not exist yet

If you don’t like my suggestion for putting a Gatling gun into VJ-101D,

You can choose a pair of G.91’s 30 mm DEFA cannons for the STOVL fighter jet instead

And it is always important to have a backup plan for self defence against incoming enemy fighter jets

The very basing concept of dispersed nukes was abandoned by the mid 60’s. Making ZELL a much simpler and more affordable solution.

Both VJ-101D and ZELL have their specific values and weaknesses

But only the early bird gets the worm

So the VJ-101D development team needs to do better on time management and cooperation to avoid being replaced and overshadowed by their rivals from both government and military industry in OTL 1968

Had the VJ-101D become a successful operational military grade aircraft, it would open a new promising STOVL fighter jet market for West Germany and change the future in long term