I think those comparisons were done during the SKR work.
Of course it's quite odd because the Chinook was nearly acquired under ASR.358 for the ASW role in the mid-60s so presumably back then some naval bod must have been tasked with working out exactly how much hangar space was needed. So it can't have been a secret, probably lost in institutional memory fade...
This was quite a bit more recently than SKR - it was associated with LPH(R), so would presumably have been with one eye on the SABR requirement.
 
Hood said

Do the stats on the graph make any sense?

Is the range with 9 troops really just 100km? I've seen a quoted UH-60M combat range of 590km...
And how can you fit 10 extra troops into a cabin only large enough for 11 troops? Even a 9 + 10 case wouldn't fit.

Assumptions the UH-60M combat range quote of 590km is with no payload and in higher air density than GE quote based on flying at 6,000 ft at 90 degrees F, would that account for the difference in range of the GE figures for the T700 UH-60M with 9 troops and range of only 100km whereas with T901 261km, you would have thought GE figures accurate as they build both engines, if GE figures correct shows how misleading figures can be compared with actuality.

Would you be able to cram 19 troops in cabin for a short range flight of 55km / 34 miles in extremis, expect figure purely for comparison purposes.
 
Bell urges UK to wait for ‘next-generation' 525 for NMH

16 FEBRUARY 2022

by Gareth Jennings



A model of the 525 Relentless displayed at the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference in London. Bell is to pitch the platform for the UK's New Medium Helicopter requirement. (Janes/Gareth Jennings)

The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) should wait for the Bell 525 Relentless so as to field “a next-generation rotorcraft capability” for its New Medium Helicopter (NMH) requirement, Joel Best, director of EUMECAA global military sales and strategy, told Janes on 16 February.

Speaking at the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference being held in London from 15–17 February, Best said that Bell absolutely intends to bid its 525 for the UK NMH requirement, and with its current certification process with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on track to conclude in the fourth quarter of 2022 (subject to all FAA submittals and approvals being returned in a ‘reasonable' timeframe), the MoD would not need to delay for long.
------
Nice idea, and yes, it is a very new helicopter. Little time, little data on performance with all the military kit added, little etc., little chance.
 
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Even if the MoD is inclined to wait, can the Pumas? Can someone enlighten me as to what is so next-gen about it? If it is lighter then is it rugged enough for squadies? If it has ooo-aaaah avionics, will they still work in a degraded environment? As @yasotay points out, a lot of unknowns. I'd be inclined to save the bleeding edge for someone else.
 
Whether it was a serious proposal, or if Boeing even knew anything about it, I don't know. One think I'm pretty confident of is that if it ever became a serious proposal, Sikorsky and the USMC would try very, very hard to kill it.

Looks like someone commissioned an engineering study fairly recently.

 
The plot thickens with more revelation of H-60 proposal by a newly established company called AirHawk up in the north of the UK



cheers
 
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And also it transpires changes in senior management at Leonardo UK with the MD and head of campaigns at Yeovil being fired / shoved out of the door …

Any coincidence or not???

cheers
 
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As much as I could argue a rational to get on the Blackhawk bandwagon, I just cannot see it as viable, without the significant UK presence of the other two vendors.
 
I attended both Royal International Air Tattoo and Farnborough Air Show over the last fortnight and saw both up close and personal the Airbus Helicopters H175M and Leonardo AW149.

At RIAT i attended the H175M brief as the launched the H175M Task Force consisting of

Airbus Helicopters themselves
Babcock
Martin-Baker
Spirit Aerosystems


Leonardo AW149 NMH (the one I flew in a Year ago) performed the first Display of Friday RIAT


So here are my photos from RIAT

cheers
 

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Then a couple of days later attended Farnborough Air Show and kicked off with Monday midday at Leonardo Chalet with a tactical deplaning demo.

Wandered over to Airbus Chalet for glimpse into the H175M and on the second day of the show, Airbus announces the H175M added to their military portfolio.

Anyhow here are my pics

cheers
 

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And I have not forgotten the Blackhawk as wandered into Lockheed Martin chalet for the UK Blackhawk brief. Outside in the chalet they had their Polish sub PZL Melec S-70i Firehawk demonstrator albeit on the port side, demo‚d with the ESSS pylons.

Also watched -the New Medium Helicopter video (can find it on Sikorsky FB page)

So here are my photos From the show.
 

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Awesome pictures. The outside visibility from the Airbus H-175 cockpit looks pretty good.

However, the picture with the gunner trying to demonstrate... That you can still fire a 7.62mm gun from a Guillotine is pathetic. Frankly Leonardo (AW-149) , shame on you.

Amazing also to see that only Poles thought that weapons fitting will be a nice thing to demonstrate at the show...
 
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And I have not forgotten the Blackhawk as wandered into Lockheed Martin chalet for the UK Blackhawk brief. Outside in the chalet they had their Polish sub PZL Melec S-70i Firehawk demonstrator albeit on the port side, demo‚d with the ESSS pylons.

Am I crazy or are there different shapes of ESSS now? The one I'm used to is a straight wing with two vertical pylons under it, like this:

1658933538306.png

But searching for the Black Hawk ESSS also turns up pictures with a downward bent wing like this (sometimes referred to as MLASS, but supposed to be a direct replacement for ESSS):

1658933899978.png

And even some pictures with an upward bent stub, like this:

1658933798953.png
 
MLASS is for the MH-60M DAP for some operational environments. I am not fond of the new pylon shown as it makes the defensive gunner weapons useless but for firing forward and are only applicable if you are using the H-60 as an attack airframe (like the current version used on MH-60M DAP). The upward angled stores station is for either the Korean or Japanese H-60 used for (C)SAR.
 
Thanks for the clarification. I guess the confusing thing is the some people refer to the other configurations as ESSS when they are not.

Anyway, sorry for the Black Hawk digression. We now return you to the Puma Replacement discussion, already in progress...
 
Awesome pictures. The outside visibility from the Airbus H-175 cockpit looks pretty good.

However, the picture with the gunner trying to demonstrate... That you can still fire a 7.62mm gun from a Guillotine is pathetic. Frankly Leonardo (AW-149) , shame on you.

Amazing also to see that only Poles thought that weapons fitting will be a nice thing to demonstrate at the show...
Yes, the gun position on the AW-149 is something from an ergonomist’s nightmare.

I’d also think any squaddies getting extraction fire from the 149 are going to be worried, because the gunner’s going to be telling the pilot “Left a bit, up a bit, right a bit… OK. … NO! Back a bit…”
 
This might have already been mentioned, but another important design capability of a S-70 Blackhawk derivative is its inherent ability to be air transportable (RAF C-17's) more than any other competitive design - especially given that the UK government/DOD seems obsessed with the Pacific AO and China overnight.......

Just an operational consideration.

Regards
Pioneer
 
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Well... given the current political situation in the UK* this is not a surprise...

UK delays tender process for Puma helicopter replacement

Zeb

*Significant errors were discovered in the current installation, they are currently deciding whether to patch or revert to the previous version, a significant number of users, myself included, would prefer a completely new Operating system :)
 
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*Significant errors were discovered in the current installation, they are currently deciding whether to patch or revert to the previous version, a significant number of users, myself included, would prefer a completely new Operating system :)

Hasn't a new top level SysAd just taken over? Maybe they can be persuaded to reject any further attempts to patch/revert, in favour of said new system . . . ;)


cheers,
Robin.
 
Well... given the current political situation in the UK* this is not a surprise...

UK delays tender process for Puma helicopter replacement

Zeb

*Significant errors were discovered in the current installation, they are currently deciding whether to patch or revert to the previous version, a significant number of users, myself included, would prefer a completely new Operating system :)
I bet it gets delayed all the way until after the next GE.
 
The AW-149 is too lightly built for longevity in the military

That's absolute nonsense. It's a widely held belief but it's flat out wrong.

The crashworthy AW149 airframe features multiple load paths allowing it to exceed the US Army’s DEFSTAN 00-970 standards, giving redundancy, and ensuring that 95% of accidents will be survivable, even in the event of the aircraft hitting the ground at 42 feet per second, and experiencing a 20g deceleration!

Modelling has been backed up by drop tests from 50ft, and in the event of hitting the ground at 17.2 m/second (56.4 ft, or 34% higher than the DEFSTAN requirement) it was found that all of the occupied cabin space under the heavy gearbox, engines and mast attachments, remained intact and uncompromised.

This is a more rugged airframe than Blackhawk's, in an airframe that has a more compact footprint, but with a significantly more voluminous cabin. It has better agility, better IR suppression and better performance. Its gearboxes can run dry at max continuous for 50 minutes. and its ballistically tolerant blades can last 90 minutes after a 12.7 mm ballistic strike.

People (encouraged by LM and Sikorsky propaganda) see an outward similarity to the AW139/189 and conclude (WRONGLY) that the 149 is a green or black painted oil and gas helicopter with a few military tweaks. Nothing could be more wrong. The 149 is a military helicopter from the ground up and from the inside out.
 
People getting a hard on over the Vietnam War conceived H-60 have clearly been watching too much 'Blackhawk Down'!
 
This might have already been mentioned, but another important design capability of a S-70 Blackhawk derivative is its inherent ability to be air transportable (RAF C-17's) more than any other competitive design - especially given that the UK government/DOD seems obsessed with the Pacific AO and China overnight.......

Just an operational consideration.

Regards
Pioneer
What makes you think that the Blackhawk is more air transportable than any of the other contenders? I don't know about the H175M's air-portability, but the AW149 fits in anything that a Blackhawk can, and its shorter wheelbase makes it simpler to load.
 
However, the picture with the gunner trying to demonstrate... That you can still fire a 7.62mm gun from a Guillotine is pathetic. Frankly Leonardo (AW-149) , shame on you.

Mark Burnand, Leonardo Helicopters Chief Test Pilot at Yeovil said of that 'leaning out to fire'

"So what he was doing in some of the shots was extreme engagements if you like - probably not role representative because what he's trying to do is just say if I push it all the way around and fire it at this speed the vibration interacting with the other aircraft systems is fine. As I say some of that is not role relatable - if he was firing in a more normal arc he’d be in the aircraft."
 
Amazing also to see that only Poles thought that weapons fitting will be a nice thing to demonstrate at the show...

I guess that Leonardo thought that the live weapons trials they'd just done, and were showing actual video and photos of might be more compelling than hanging a dummy rocket pod on the stub wing:

"But the other part about avoiding engagement is the suppressive fire - the offensive capability of the aircraft.... Leading on from the end of last year, and going through this year, the UK team has been part of the wider global Leonardo effort in terms of developing and testing the 149’s capabilities. So I think you met 'Eggy' Evans earlier in the year? Lee Evans is one of my TPs and he's been out at an undisclosed European country - out on the Ranges there, doing a variety of weapons firing tasks, rockets - both guided and unguided – and crew-served weapons and also some DAS activities.

"So in terms of the free flight rockets and laser guided rockets that we have been testing over several weeks (and about 70 flight hours) we have fired over 200 guided and unguided rockets in a variety of conditions – day and night, single shot and salvos at standoff distances of three and a half to four kilometres. That range limitation actually came from the firing range, as opposed to the weapon capability." Mark Burnand, Leonardo Helicopters Chief Test Pilot

And more is to come, according to Mark Morrisroe, Leonardo Helicopters' head of UK campaigns.

"We already have scheduled further weapon firing tests in the coming months, which we hope to be able to brief at some point in the future."
 
And then there were four... Airbus Helicopters, Boeing, Leonardo Helicopters and Sikorsky... Can't help feeling that theres a sense of relief that AceHawk and NH Industries* have been eliminated...

Four firms to fight for UK’s New Medium Helicopter requirement

Boeing is a bit of an oddity given I assume they would be offering the MH139... The article suggests that they are interested in support and training side of things so I wonder if some sort of deal with Leonardo will be on the cards...

Zeb

* Sweden have bailed from the programme as well now...
 

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