Post-war fate of French navy had it escaped Toulon?

[Dilandu]

Never thought about that interesting detail @Martes. Applies to Richelieu and Jean Bart, but also to the survivors from the Dunkerque class battlecruisers.

Well, French Navy actually considered installing SAM's (or cruise missiles) on Richelieu and Jean Bart in late 1950s - early 1960s.

 

[Dilandu]

FWIW one of the Richelieu class was used as the trials ship for early versions of the Mascura missile. (Which, I misspelt as "mascara" for many yerars.)

Never heard about this. Doesn't seems to be possible, such installation would require significant alterations in superstructure, which aren't presented on late 1960s photos.

 

[Archibald]

Unlike USS Norton Sound (or the very old battleship before it), there was no MASURCA test ship. It started its life with the Suffrens right away.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Well, French Navy actually considered installing SAM's (or cruise missiles) on Richelieu and Jean Bart in late 1950s - early 1960s.

With regard as to the surface to air missiles, were they considering the Mabranca for at least part of the air defence suite, I wonder.

EDIT: Alongside the Maruca missile for the medium range role. With, presumably, Masalca in the long range role?

 

[Dilandu]

EDIT: Alongside the Maruca missile for the medium range role. With, presumably, Masalca in the long range role?

Yep, exactly.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Unlike USS Norton Sound (or the very old battleship before it), there was no MASURCA test ship. It started its life with the Suffrens right away.

There are pictures of an early version of MASURCA on Jean Bart on the internet.

 

[Archibald]

Ah, I think I understand the confusion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/ua1t8f/battleship_jean_bart_with_an_early_masurca

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/ua1t8f/battleship_jean_bart_with_an_early_masurca/


Quick search...

https://www.google.com/search?q="jean+bart""masurca"&sca_esv=87b41ab4477c98ab&hl=en&source=hp&ei=-9xCaKiOIPeThbIPob-isQc&iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaELrC88XAn06L7rJfVu6wTnzVkIJYcPX&ved=0ahUKEwjo97OD5NyNAxX3SUEAHaGfKHYQ4dUDCBc&uact=5&oq="jean+bart""masurca"&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhQiamVhbiBiYXJ0IiJtYXN1cmNhIjIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSOclUABYkiNwAHgAkAEAmAGbAaAB8A-qAQQ5LjExuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIToAKPEMICCxAuGIAEGNEDGMcBwgIFEC4YgATCAgUQABiABMICBhAAGBYYHsICCBAAGBYYChgewgIFECEYoAGYAwCSBwQ2LjEzoAfP1QGyBwQ2LjEzuAePEMIHCDAuMy4xNS4xyAdg&sclient=gws-wiz

Les Masurca ? en reste-t-ils ?
Il y en avait bien un sur l'avant du Jean Bart. Juste pour faire joli.

Certainement en l'honneur des nouveaux missiliers qui faisaient leurs cours à bord.
C'était un peu anachronique sur ce navire-canons.
Si je ne me trompe pas, il était de couleur jaune.
Il faudrait pouvoir retrouver une photo...

Je n'ai pas parlé d'une rampe Masurca sur le Jean Bart mais d'un missile Masurca qui avait été placé sur l'avant.

Le Jean Bart n'a jamais été équipé de missiles, cette maquette a été placée dans les années soixante pour marquer la nouvelle orientation de la Marine dans sa défense anti-aérienne de façon très symbolique.

It was just a mockup. Not a missile, no ramp. Just to impress.

Note that there is a couple of unrelated discussions just to make the search more complicated

-There was a Jean Bart with air-defense missiles, but it was the second Cassard-class frigate, with Tartar (recently retired)

-Le fauteuil de Colbert is a (partially) speculative blog related to the french navy, and its author did mentionned a Jean Bart battleship with Masurca or Terrier missiles.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

FWIW if the ships lost during Operation Torch IOTL survived the war ITTL the French Navy would have had a great many of the ships wanted in the post-war plan. The biggest deficiency being 2 aircraft carriers against a requirement for 10. Furthermore, many of the destroyers were large enough to warrant being rearmed with modern weapons. Eg it looks to me like all the CTs and the Le Hardi class were big enough to take four-to-eight US 5in guns (in single or twin mountings) and a Mk 37 fire control. Unfortunately, these ships were a wasting asset on account of their age.

Many French destroyers that were lost in 1942 IOTL were refitted in the USA ITTL. They were rearmed with 5in/38 & Bofors 40mm guns, modern radar & sonar was installed and the Mk 37 fire control system was fitted. The Mogador class received eight 5in guns in four twin turrets, the older contre-torpilleurs received five 5in guns in single mountings, the Le Hardi class received six 5in guns in three twin mountings and the Bourrasque & Adroit classes received four 5in guns in single mountings. The ships not refitted to this standard during the war were refitted to this standard by 1950 in French dockyards.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Both French battleships and battlecruisers make very convenient candidates for missile conversions because the main artillery is concentrated forward and it would be much easier structurally to replace the secondary guns with missile launchers and magazines. No problems with heavy barbettes, hull integrity, etc. With proper budget and care could make it into 90's and still be very potent platforms.

I dunno, the USN suffered a lot trying to give the Iowas their proper manning.

 

[Martes]

I dunno, the USN suffered a lot trying to give the Iowas their proper manning.

But it was enough for the 1991 Iraq war, so difficult, but possible.

Did the French have similar manpower problems in late 80's?

 

[Archibald]

The navy had budget and manning issues since the 1960's at least. Much like the other two conventional armies, it suffered from the expenses of the nuclear deterrent. In the 1980's Foch and Clem had not enough planes, helicopters and crews to sail together as full blown aircraft carriers. One of the two would thus be turned into a huge helicopter carrier (this is how Clemenceau deployed in GW1).

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Part of Message 35

The postwar fleet would consist of three carrier task forces (Atlantic, Mediterranean, colonial) plus four ASW escort groups, an amphibious flotilla (60,000 tons), coastal forces (motor torpedo boats), pocket submarines, and minesweepers, 60 long-range submarines, and 12 colonial avisos (sloops). Each carrier group would consist of two carriers, a battleship, four cruisers, and 12 fast escorts. Each escort group would consist of a small carrier and about 12 escorts (for a total of 50). The fleet would return to about its pre-1940 size (750,000 tons compared to 700,000 in 1940, or 400,000 in 1945).

That is.

• 60 long-range submarines.
• 10 aircraft carriers (6 fleet and 4 escort).
• 3 battleships.
• 12 cruisers.
• 36 fast escorts for the fleet carriers.
• 50 escorts for the escort carriers.
• 12 colonial avisos (sloops).
• 60,000 tons of amphibious ships.
• An unspecified number coastal forces (MTBs), pocket submarines and minesweepers.

Part of Message 35.

This ambitious plan was soon cut by about half. By using existing ships the Navy could avoid any requirements to build battleships or cruisers, although clearly it needed carriers. It would operate two task groups, each built around one of the two modern battleships, with one heavy and one light carrier (to be built) and a dozen escorts (half of them ex-German or ex-Italian at this stage). Two escort groups would be organized around the escort carrier Dixmude and the aircraft transport Commandant Teste (which would be converted into an escort carrier), plus ex-Allied frigates. Coastal defence would be the responsibility of 24 small craft (vedettes), 12 ex-German midget submarines, and a hundred aircraft. There were 30 submarines and 30,000 tons of amphibious shipping. Even this program would have required 222,500 tons of new construction, over a dozen years. The construction program was finally fixed in 1949. It added 72,000 tons of ships to replace those reaching retirement age, and another 28,000 tons under construction, for a total of 322,500 tons.

That is.

• 30 submarines.
• 6 aircraft carriers (2 new heavy, 2 new light, Dixmude & Commandant Teste).
• 2 battleships.
• 24 escorts for the 4 fleet carriers.
• 24 escorts for the 2 escort carriers.
• 30,000 tons of amphibious ships.
• 24 vedettes, 12 midget submarines and 100 shore based aircraft for coast defence.

This is the French Navy of 1947 IOTL according to Conway’s 1947-1995.

• 12 Submarines (7 French and 5 ex-German).
  • 4 British "S" class would be transferred to France in 1951 and they were used for training.
  • 5 La Creole class laid down before France surrendered were completed 1949-54.
• 2 Aircraft Carriers (Arromanches and Dixmude) or 3 if Commandant Teste is included.
  • The USA transferred 2 Independence class to France under MDAP. They were Laffayette (ex-Langley) in 1950 and Bois Belleau (ex-Belleau Wood) in 1953
• 2 Battleships (Jean Bart and Richelieu).
• 16 Cruisers (2 Duquense class, Suffren, Duguay Trouin, Emile Bertin, Jeanne d' Arc, 3 La Galissonnière class, 4 Le Fantasque class (ex-contre-torpilleurs), 2 ex-Italian Capitani Romani class and the incomplete De Grasse).
  • However.
    • Chateaurenault (ex-Attilio Gegolo) and Guichern (Scipio Africano) weren't transferred from Italy to France until 1948.
    • Duquesne and Tourville were only used for training and were hulked in 1950.
    • Suffren (the only heavy cruiser to see active post-war service) was paid off in 1949.
    • Duguay Trouin was used as a depot ship until her disposal in 1952.
    • Emile Bertin became a sea going gunnery training ship in 1947 and was placed in reserve in 1952.
    • De Grasse wasn't completed until 1956, albeit to a new design.
• 15 Destroyers (2 contre-torpilleurs (Albatross & Tigre), 4 ex-German Z-boats (2 Type 1934A & 2 Z-boats Type 1936A), 3 ex-German T-boats (3 Type 1935/37 & 2 1939) and 4 ex-Italian Soldati class (not transferred until 1948).
  • However.
    • The 2 surviving contre-torpilleurs were used as sea going training ships, but weren't broken up until 1954 and 1959 respectively.
    • 5 Z-boats and 6 T-boats were transferred to the MN in 1946, but Z39 and T35 were cannibalised for spares.
    • Conway's 1947-1995 doesn't mention any of 9 smaller destroyers and 5 torpedo boats that survived the war. This could be because Conway's 1922-46 says they were sold for breaking up 1949-52.
• 12 Convoy Escorts (6 ex-American Cannon class destroyer escorts and 6 ex-British River class frigates).
  • Another 8 Cannon class were transferred to France 1950-52.
  • The Italian colonial sloop Eritrea (2,165 tons standard) was transferred in 1948 under the peace treaty. She was classified as a first class aviso and renamed Francis Garnier.
• 20 Avisos (3 First class (1,770-to-1,970 tons), 15 second class (all 630 tons) and 2 hydrographic (both 1, 370 tons)).
• 15 ex-German M-boats. A total of 27 were transferred, but the other 15 saw no active service and were broken up by 1949.
• There were no amphibious ships in 1949. However, the USN transferred 8 LSTs to France 1949-51 and an LSD in 1952. But their total standard displacement was 17,500 tons, which was well short (about 40%) of even the reduced target of 30,000 tons.
• 30 ex-American small minesweepers of the YMS type.
• 30 ex-American submarine chasers of the PC type displacing 280 tons.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

• Escorts: 10
  • Bougainville class: 4
  • Flower class: 6

3 Bougainville class survived the war IOTL and another was scuttled at Toulon. So I can see where you get 4 Bougainville class from.

However, the 6 French Flower class corvettes were sold soon after the war and weren't in Conway's 1947-1995 list of French warships in 1947. Fortunately, 6 River class frigates were transferred to France in 1943-44 and the first of them wasn't discarded until 1959.

You didn't mention any of the Second Class Avisos that survived the war.

• 6 Chamois class served with the post-war French Navy. That is 3 that were commissioned before France surrendered and 3 that were completed in the 1940s.
• That could be increased to 9 ITTL. That is one was scuttled at Toulon, one was sunk in Operation Torch and construction of the third was abandoned in 1948, not long after she was launched.
• 9 out of 13 Elan class survived the war and served into the 1950s. This included Commandant Bory which escaped from Toulon. Her four sisters were not so luck. They were captured at Toulon and subsequently lost in Axis service.

You didn't mention the 2 hydrographic avisos converted from Sans Souci class seaplane tenders. 4 were laid down and the Germans renamed them SG1-to-SG4. However, one was sunk in German service and another was bombed incomplete in January 1944.

And you didn't mention the 6 American destroyer escorts that survived the war. Another 8 were transferred to France in the early 1950s.

That makes a total of 40 escorts, instead of the 16 in your total and the 32 of OTL

• 6 River class frigates as IOTL.
• 6 Cannon class destroyer escorts as IOTL.
• 4 Bougainville class first class avisos, instead of 3 as IOTL.
• 9 Chamois class second class avisos, instead of 6 as IOTL.
• 13 Élan class second class avisos, instead of 9 as IOTL.
• 2 La Perouse class hydrographic avisos as IOTL.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Part of the Opening Message

• Submarines: 26
  • Surcouf class: 1 (Surcouf)
  • Redoutable class: 10 (Protee, Acheron, Acteon, Beveziers, Archimede, Argo, Glorieux, Centaure, Casablanca, Redoutable)
  • Requin class: 5 (Espadon, Phoque, Dauphin, Narval, Marsouin)
  • Saphir class: 1 (Rubis)
  • Minerve class: 3 (Minerve, Junon, Iris)
  • Argonaute class: 4
  • Minerve class: 2

Of that list.

• Surcouf was taken by the British in Operation Catapult and was sunk in a collision on 18.02.42, nine months before Toulon.
• Redoutable class - 31 built.
  • 2 were lost in accidents before the war. Their names were Phénix & Prométhée.
  • 4 were scuttled at Brest on 18.06.10. Their names were Achille, Agosta, Ouessant and Pasteur.
  • Persée was sunk on 23.09.40 during the Battle of Dakar.
  • Ajax was scuttled on 24.09.40 after the Battle of Dakar.
  • Poncelet was scuttled on 07.11.40 during the Battle of Gabon.
  • Sfax was torpedoed by the German U-boat U-37 on 19.12.40.
  • 3 were sunk in May 1942 during the Battle of Madegascar. Their names were Bévéziers, Le Héros and Monge.
  • 4 were sunk in November 1942 during Operation Torch. Their names were Actéon, Le Conquérant, Le Tonnant and Sidi Ferruch.
  • 7 were scuttled at Toulon on 27.11.42. Their names were Achéron, Fresnel, Henri Poincaré, L'Espoir, Pascal, Redoutable and Vengeur.
  • Protée was sunk of Cassis on 20.12.43.
  • Pégase was scuttled at Saigon on 09.03.45.
  • 5 survived the war. Argo was dismantled in 1946. Archimède, Casabianca, Le Centaure and Le Glorieux were dismantled in 1952.
  • Based on that the 4 boats lost in Operation Torch and the 7 boats scuttled at Toulon IOTL may have survived to the early 1950s ITTL.
• Requin class - 9 built.
  • Caiman was scuttled at Toulon on 27.11.42.
  • 4 were captured at Bizerta on 08.12.42 and were sunk or scuttled in 1943. Their names were Dauphin, Espadon, Dauphin and Requin.
  • 3 were sunk. Morse mined on 16.06.40, Narval mined on 15.12.40 and Souffleur torpedoed on 25.06.41.
  • Marsouin survived the war, but was broken up in 1946.
  • The 9 ships were launched 1924-27 so it's probable that the 4 boats at Bizerta and one at Toulon IOTL would have been scrapped in 1946 like Marsouin if they survived the war ITTL.
• Saphir class - 6 built.
  • Diamant was scuttled at Toulon on 27.11.42.
  • 3 were captured at Bizerta on 08.02.42, but scuttled or sunk in that port during 1943. Their names were Saphir, Turquoise and Nautilus.
  • Perle was sunk on 08.07.44.
  • Rubis survived the war and was struck on 10.04.49.
  • The 6 ships were launched 1928-35 and my guess is that the 3 boats at Bizerta and one at Toulon IOTL would have been struck in 1949 if they survived the war ITTL.
• Argonaute class - 5 built.
  • Argonaute was sunk off Oran on 08.11.42 during Operation Torch.
  • The other 4 survived the war but were broken up in 1946. Their names were Arethuse, Atalante, La Vestale and La Sultane.
• Minerve class - 6 built.
  • 2 survived the war IOTL. Iris was sold for breaking up in 1950 and Juno was sold for breaking up in 1954.
  • Ceres and Palas were scuttled at Oran on 09.11.42.
  • Minerve was wrecked on 19.09.45.
  • Venus was scuttled at Toulon on 27.11.42.

According to the Wikipedia article 16 submarines were scuttled at Toulon and 6 of them didn't belong to classes in the above list.

• 3 Sirène class (Galatée, Naïade and Sirène). Nymphe the other boat of this class was broken up in 1938. They were launched 1925-26. So I think they’d have been scrapped at the end of the war, if they’d escaped from Toulon and survived to VE-Day ITTL.
• Eurydice of the Ariane class. She had 3 sisters. Ondine was lost before the war in a collision on 03.10.28, well before the war started. Ariane and Danaé were scuttled at Oran on 09.11.42 to prevent them falling into Allied hands. The class was launched 1925-27. Therefore, I think Ariane, Danaé and Eurydice would have been scrapped at the end of the war, if they'd joined the Allies and survived to VJ-Day ITTL.
• Thétis of the Circé class. She had 3 sisters. Doris was sunk on 09.05.40. Circé and Calypso were captured at Bizerta on 08.12.42 and were sunk or scuttled in 1943.This class was launched 1925-27 too and therefore I think the boats lost at Bizerta and Toulon IOTL would have been scrapped at the end of the war, if they'd joined the Allies and survived to VJ-Day ITTL.
• Aurore of the Aurore class of 8 boats. IOTL 7 were completed, one was during the war, one (Aurore) was scuttled at Toulon and 5 survived the war. The boats that survived the war IOTL lasted into the 1960s. Therefore, I think Aurore would have lasted that long ITTL.

That leaves the Diane class. None were scuttled at Toulon, but 6 were sunk or scuttled during Operation Torch. However, the 3 boats that survived the war IOTL were sold for breaking up in April 1946. That is the likely fate of the other 6 boats if they'd survived the war ITTL.