Post-war fate of French navy had it escaped Toulon?

[Lascaris]

So say that in 1942 Auphan is a bit more pro-active/decisive and the Marine Nationale or a sizable part of it anyway sails away to join the Allies. Fast forward to 1945 and France ends up the war in possession of several more cruisers, destroyers and submarines. To put it in more concrete terms lets say that the Marine Nationale ends up with the following list of ships besides Richelieu, Jean Bart, Strasbourg and Bearn.

• Heavy Cruisers: 6
  • Algerie class: 1 (Algerie)
  • Duquesne class: 2 (Duquesne, Tourville)
  • Suffren class: 3 (Suffren, Colbert, Foch)
• Light Cruisers: 7
  • Duguay Trouin class: 2 (Duguay Trouin, Primauguet)
  • Emile Bertin class: 1 (Emile Bertin)
  • La Galisonierre class: 3 (Georges Leygues, Montcalm, Gloire)
  • Jeanne d'Arc class: 1 (Jeanne d'Arc)
• Destroyers: 32
  • Mogador class: 2 (Mogador, Volta)
  • Fantasque class: 4 (Le Fantasque, Le Terrible, Le Triomphant, Le Malin)
  • Vauquelin class: 2 (Kersaint, Cassard)
  • Aigle class: 4 (Albatros, Milan, Vautur, Gerfaut)
  • Guepard class: 1 (Verdun)
  • Chakal class: 3 (Lynx, Tigre, Leopard)
  • L' Adroit class: 9 (Basque, Forbin, Le Fortune, L' Alcyon, Bulonnais, Brestois, Fougoueux, Frondeur, L' Adroit)
  • Bourrasque class: 4 (Simoun, Tempete, Tornade, Tramontane)
  • Le Hardi class: 3 (Le Hardi, Mameluk, Casque)
• Torpedo boats: 2
  • La Melpomene class: 2 (La Pomone, L' Iphigenie)
• Submarines: 26
  • Surcouf class: 1 (Surcouf)
  • Redoutable class: 10 (Protee, Acheron, Acteon, Beveziers, Archimede, Argo, Glorieux, Centaure, Casablanca, Redoutable)
  • Requin class: 5 (Espadon, Phoque, Dauphin, Narval, Marsouin)
  • Saphir class: 1 (Rubis)
  • Minerve class: 3 (Minerve, Junon, Iris)
  • Argonaute class: 4
  • Minerve class: 2
• Escorts: 10
  • Bougainville class: 4
  • Flower class: 6

So fast forward to the 1950s. Obviously the surviving fleet is a dwindling resource. But in OTL many of the ships that actually survived made it to the late 1950s and a bit later. Do we see the French navy maintaining higher force levels in the late 1940s early 1950s till the surviving ships start leaving service? And can actually France afford the manpower and maintainance costs involved?

 

[BlackBat242]

Auphan?

Or do you meal Admiral Darlan?

 

[Archdude]

So say that in 1942 Auphan is a bit more pro-active/decisive and the Marine Nationale or a sizable part of it anyway sails away to join the Allies. Fast forward to 1945 and France ends up the war in possession of several more cruisers, destroyers and submarines. To put it in more concrete terms lets say that the Marine Nationale ends up with the following list of ships besides Richelieu, Jean Bart, Strasbourg and Bearn.

• Heavy Cruisers: 6
  • Algerie class: 1 (Algerie)
  • Duquesne class: 2 (Duquesne, Tourville)
  • Suffren class: 3 (Suffren, Colbert, Foch)
• Light Cruisers: 7
  • Duguay Trouin class: 2 (Duguay Trouin, Primauguet)
  • Emile Bertin class: 1 (Emile Bertin)
  • La Galisonierre class: 3 (Georges Leygues, Montcalm, Gloire)
  • Jeanne d'Arc class: 1 (Jeanne d'Arc)
• Destroyers: 32
  • Mogador class: 2 (Mogador, Volta)
  • Fantasque class: 4 (Le Fantasque, Le Terrible, Le Triomphant, Le Malin)
  • Vauquelin class: 2 (Kersaint, Cassard)
  • Aigle class: 4 (Albatros, Milan, Vautur, Gerfaut)
  • Guepard class: 1 (Verdun)
  • Chakal class: 3 (Lynx, Tigre, Leopard)
  • L' Adroit class: 9 (Basque, Forbin, Le Fortune, L' Alcyon, Bulonnais, Brestois, Fougoueux, Frondeur, L' Adroit)
  • Bourrasque class: 4 (Simoun, Tempete, Tornade, Tramontane)
  • Le Hardi class: 3 (Le Hardi, Mameluk, Casque)
• Torpedo boats: 2
  • La Melpomene class: 2 (La Pomone, L' Iphigenie)
• Submarines: 26
  • Surcouf class: 1 (Surcouf)
  • Redoutable class: 10 (Protee, Acheron, Acteon, Beveziers, Archimede, Argo, Glorieux, Centaure, Casablanca, Redoutable)
  • Requin class: 5 (Espadon, Phoque, Dauphin, Narval, Marsouin)
  • Saphir class: 1 (Rubis)
  • Minerve class: 3 (Minerve, Junon, Iris)
  • Argonaute class: 4
  • Minerve class: 2
• Escorts: 10
  • Bougainville class: 4
  • Flower class: 6

So fast forward to the 1950s. Obviously the surviving fleet is a dwindling resource. But in OTL many of the ships that actually survived made it to the late 1950s and a bit later. Do we see the French navy maintaining higher force levels in the late 1940s early 1950s till the surviving ships start leaving service? And can actually France afford the manpower and maintainance costs involved?

Interesting concept!

 

[Archibald]

Auphan was the good guy - unfortunately his superiors de Laborde and Darlan were vichyst dickheads. De Laborde in particularly was a first class moron (and this is unfair to morons, really).

...

CRUISERS -- I have a soft spot for Algerie - France best heavy cruiser, ever. France however was severely limited in manpower after 1945. We got three light cruisers, broadly sharing a similar hull shape: De Grasse, Colbert, Jeanne d'Arc. Each landed a specialized role in the end: flagship of nuclear testing (De Grasse) missile cruiser (Colbert) helicopter cruiser (Jeanne d'Arc).
The 8-inch cruisers older than Algerie would not survive for a very long time.

-What happens to Dunkerque and Strasbourg battlecruisers ? OTL, battleships Jean Bart and Richelieu survived until 1960 but were severely under-manned even at Suez.

- Might be interesting to see the impact of all the surviving destroyers on the T47 / T53 family.

-Submarine cruiser Surcouf went down with all hands in February 1942 so was already gone by Toulon scuttling.

Overall, I think France had no choice other than investing in destroyers and aircraft carriers - CL, CA, BC and BB were luxuries. This duly noted, I want to see Algerie as a missile cruiser with MASURCA.

 

[Dilandu]

de Laborde and Darlan were vichyst dickheads

I always thought Darlan was more anti-British (due to "Catapult") than pro-Vichy?

 

[Archibald]

Darlan was an opportunist, above all.

 

[Elan Vital]

So say that in 1942 Auphan is a bit more pro-active/decisive and the Marine Nationale or a sizable part of it anyway sails away to join the Allies. Fast forward to 1945 and France ends up the war in possession of several more cruisers, destroyers and submarines. To put it in more concrete terms lets say that the Marine Nationale ends up with the following list of ships besides Richelieu, Jean Bart, Strasbourg and Bearn.

• Heavy Cruisers: 6
  • Algerie class: 1 (Algerie)
  • Duquesne class: 2 (Duquesne, Tourville)
  • Suffren class: 3 (Suffren, Colbert, Foch)
• Light Cruisers: 7
  • Duguay Trouin class: 2 (Duguay Trouin, Primauguet)
  • Emile Bertin class: 1 (Emile Bertin)
  • La Galisonierre class: 3 (Georges Leygues, Montcalm, Gloire)
  • Jeanne d'Arc class: 1 (Jeanne d'Arc)
• Destroyers: 32
  • Mogador class: 2 (Mogador, Volta)
  • Fantasque class: 4 (Le Fantasque, Le Terrible, Le Triomphant, Le Malin)
  • Vauquelin class: 2 (Kersaint, Cassard)
  • Aigle class: 4 (Albatros, Milan, Vautur, Gerfaut)
  • Guepard class: 1 (Verdun)
  • Chakal class: 3 (Lynx, Tigre, Leopard)
  • L' Adroit class: 9 (Basque, Forbin, Le Fortune, L' Alcyon, Bulonnais, Brestois, Fougoueux, Frondeur, L' Adroit)
  • Bourrasque class: 4 (Simoun, Tempete, Tornade, Tramontane)
  • Le Hardi class: 3 (Le Hardi, Mameluk, Casque)
• Torpedo boats: 2
  • La Melpomene class: 2 (La Pomone, L' Iphigenie)
• Submarines: 26
  • Surcouf class: 1 (Surcouf)
  • Redoutable class: 10 (Protee, Acheron, Acteon, Beveziers, Archimede, Argo, Glorieux, Centaure, Casablanca, Redoutable)
  • Requin class: 5 (Espadon, Phoque, Dauphin, Narval, Marsouin)
  • Saphir class: 1 (Rubis)
  • Minerve class: 3 (Minerve, Junon, Iris)
  • Argonaute class: 4
  • Minerve class: 2
• Escorts: 10
  • Bougainville class: 4
  • Flower class: 6

So fast forward to the 1950s. Obviously the surviving fleet is a dwindling resource. But in OTL many of the ships that actually survived made it to the late 1950s and a bit later. Do we see the French navy maintaining higher force levels in the late 1940s early 1950s till the surviving ships start leaving service? And can actually France afford the manpower and maintainance costs involved?

Considering that IRL postwar France didn't have the money to enroll all the personnel they wanted, it would be very challenging to operate all of these ships indeed.

It is possible that having a more powerful Navy would give Free France more leverage to receive more support during the war, as it could notably help the Allied war effort. Possibly when the Korean war starts as well.

 

[Dilandu]

Darlan was an opportunist, above all

Well, without "Catapult" he would likely join the allies side voluntary somewhere in late 1941-early 1942 (after USSR and USA joined the war).

 

[Archibald]

Well, without "Catapult" he would likely join the allies side voluntary somewhere in late 1941-early 1942 (after USSR and USA joined the war).

Not sure at all. With or without Catapult, he remained a political opportunist determined to make a career in Vichy. More generally : as an Admiral he was good and built a superb French Navy fleet. But once he dabbled into politics, he was a total disaster: he had an ego the size of Richelieu battleship.
Vichy was a major surprise and a disruptive political event that persuaded a lot of opportunists, not career politicians, to try and get a chance. Particularly across the french military - or what was left of it. Petain evidently showed the way... see Huntziger as another example.

 

[Dilandu]

Not sure at all. With or without Catapult, he remained a political opportunist determined to make a career in Vichy

But the absolute impotence and lack of future for Vichy government became obvious by 1941; and by 1942 it was obvious that Vichy France would not survive for long anyway. For opportunits, it would be a clear indication that it's time to switch sides; especially considering that Darlan wasn't exactly much affilliated with Vichy, and was more like independent warlord in Africa.

 

[Lascaris]

Auphan?

Or do you meal Admiral Darlan?

Rear admiral Gabriel Auphan minister of the navy at the time of Toulon.

CRUISERS -- I have a soft spot for Algerie - France best heavy cruiser, ever. France however was severely limited in manpower after 1945. We got three light cruisers, broadly sharing a similar hull shape: De Grasse, Colbert, Jeanne d'Arc. Each landed a specialized role in the end: flagship of nuclear testing (De Grasse) missile cruiser (Colbert) helicopter cruiser (Jeanne d'Arc).
The 8-inch cruisers older than Algerie would not survive for a very long time.

Suffren made it to 1962 IMS. I think replacing it with Algerie is an obvious one without affecting in any way crew requirements.

-What happens to Dunkerque and Strasbourg battlecruisers ? OTL, battleships Jean Bart and Richelieu survived until 1960 but were severely under-manned even at Suez.

Denkerque IMO could not escape Toulon given its damage so gets scuttled. Strasbourg after 1945... does it potentially affect the fate of Jean Bart, with it being completed as a carrier? It wouldn't make the most satisfactory carrier but a 50,000 ton ship is going to be by default far more useful than the light carriers France got OTL.

- Might be interesting to see the impact of all the surviving destroyers on the T47 / T53 family.

The useful ones in addition to OTL are likely the pair of Mogadors and the 3 Hardis. Which can easily take the place of the German and Italian destroyers pressed into service OTL.

-Submarine cruiser Surcouf went down with all hands in February 1942 so was already gone by Toulon scuttling.

Ah yes. I'll admit copying the list from my timeline in AH.com where she was luckier.

Overall, I think France had no choice other than investing in destroyers and aircraft carriers - CL, CA, BC and BB were luxuries. This duly noted, I want to see Algerie as a missile cruiser with MASURCA.

If the Italians could do that...

 

[Archibald]

Jean Bart carrier is my pet peeve. Whatever the battleship hull limitations, it is still superior to OTL two Independance class (Lafayette & Bois belleau) and Arromanches. Which made it to 1974 OTL so why not Jean Bart being similar.
Strasbourg and Richelieu fates are tricky.
Strasbourg take place of OTL Jean Bart, turned carrier ITTL. Except they are dissimilar. I think Strasbourg will be retired early.

 

[Archibald]

ITTL there are two major changes to a) the carrier fleet and b) the cruiser fleet

Carrier fleet: Jean Bart is quite better than Arromanches or the Independance twins. He may replace one of them, but which one(s) ?
To simplify matters, I'd say
-Jean Bart
-Arromanches
This, until 1961 when the Clem, Foch and Jeanne d'Arc enter the chat. I'd say that Jeanne d'Arc would replace Arromanches, leaving four "aviation ships" in an homogenous 30 kt top speed (Arromanches was 24 kt in a good day).

The BB / BC / CA / CL post war fleet
-Richelieu
-Strasbourg
-Algerie
-De Grasse
-Colbert
(nota bene: Jean Bart and Jeanne d'Arc have switched to the carrier side, so see above)

- Sticky point: having no Independance carriers across the 1950's can free crew for the Algerie cruiser.

- But it doesn't solves the problem of BC Strasbourg: unlike Jean Bart OTL, being different and inferior from Richelieu.
- So why bother with Strasbourg, knowing how undermanned and underused, even at Suez, were Richelieu and Jean Bart twins ?

This leaves
-Clem + Foch + Jean Bart + Jeanne d'Arc four "carrier" fleet (OTL: Clem, Foch, Jeane d'Arc, Arromanches until 1974)
-Algerie, De Grasse and Colbert as ITTL "three cruiser fleet". (OTL: Colbert, Jeanne d'Arc, De Grasse until 1972)

Sounds pretty close from OTL.

For the three cruisers, the 1960's will bring two interesting questions
- which one gets MASURCA ? probably Colbert, the only new build since MASURCA was a monster system;
-which one goes to Moruroa in 1966 as a floating command post for nuclear testing ?
OTL, Richelieu was considered but De Grasse got the job instead. Can Algerie sneaks between them ?

 

[EwenS]

Historically none of the surviving heavy cruisers saw front line service beyound the end of 1947.

Suffren was decommissioned and placed in Reserve on 1 Oct 1947, having completed her final tour off Indochina in March that year. She was then moored at Angle Robert, Toulon and served as a hulk for the gunnery school and from 1961 the sonar school. Renamed Ocean on 1 Jan 1963 to free up her original name. Became surplus to requirements in 1971, striken in 1972 and renamed Q 494. For sale in 1975 and broken up in 1976.

Duquesne in Reserve at Toulon from 1 Sept 1947 after completing her final Indochina tour in May that year. Attached to the Amphibious Operations Training Centre at Arzew being modified at Oran to fit her role as command post and barracks Feb-Aug 1948 then moored at Arzew. Stricken July 1955, and towed to Mers el-Kebir and put up for sale a year later.

Tourville completed her final Indochina deployment in Dec 1947 and was placed in special reserve at Brest on 1 Jan 1948. She then served as a floating barracks for various schools until being placed in Reserve B on 28 April 1961. Stricken 8 March 1962 becoming Q 312 and towed to Toulon Jan/Feb 1963 to be broken up.

From Jordan & Moulin " French Cruisers 1922-1956"