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Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka

Jemiba

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For the upper sides, I would stay with green as camouflage. Generally, with the exception of "dark earth",
a similar paint scheme to the Gloster E.28/39 (from http://www.planesandchoppers.com/picture/number4886.asp )
Interesting observation, that the nose wheel well door is missing. Perhaps due to lack of thrust of the (prototype)
engines ? Zje P.1127 made its first flight in a similar guise for that reason.
 

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T-50

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Hi Blackkite san
youve did it again nice drawnings! especially the first and the second one!
Is the twin tailboom version also a Nakajima design or is it from a other conpany?
and the Kikka version with its engines against the fuselage,looks better than the builded version I must say.
were this real projects? if so the japanese having more projected jet aircraft and the Us and Britain were not happy with them!
All respects for the japanese engineers!!
I also red in a book they was a version of the Kikka with two seats and a radar version for night combat against the B-29s
best regards
T-50
 

blackkite

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Hi T-50 san.
All three desgins were of course Nakajima's plan. Nakajima's engineers thought that No.2 plan was the best one same as your opinion, but hard to realize at the day. So No.3 plan was selected as a final Kikka shape.
Next artistic impressions were planned high altitude fighter, trainer and high speed reconnaissance version of Kikka.
 

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T-50

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wow! nice drawnings Blackkite san! Japan was further developed in Jet aircraft than most people know(what is a shame but thats a other topic!) They were further than even the US! while they had the complete plans of the Nene engine.
My respect goes to the japanese technicians becouse they build a working engine from a pair of photos from Germany,and they most solve many problems without German tecnical aid.But they did it!!
best regards
T-50
 

sienar

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T-50 said:
wow! nice drawnings Blackkite san! Japan was further developed in Jet aircraft than most people know(what is a shame but thats a other topic!) They were further than even the US! while they had the complete plans of the Nene engine.
My respect goes to the japanese technicians becouse they build a working engine from a pair of photos from Germany,and they most solve many problems without German tecnical aid.But they did it!!
best regards
T-50


What is making you say something like this?
 

blackkite

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Hi Japanese jet engines which were under development at the end period of W.W.2
Ne20(TR12,static thrust 320kg), Ne20(static thrust 475kg), Ne130(static thrust 885kg) and Ne330(static thrust 1320kg)
 

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Tzoli

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Is that a Turbopropeller Engine??? Looks more like a regular Jet Engine to me!
 

blackkite

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Hi! Alison T-56.
I think that the Ne201 had the same shape.
 

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Tzoli

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The Allison do have similarities with the First Turboprop but that Japanese are not in my opinion!

The Jendrassik CS-1

 

Nick Sumner

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Blackite, may I just ask; what is the source of the jet engine pictures?
 

blackkite

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Source : Final decisive weapon(最終決戦兵器), Kojin-sha, ISBN4-7698-0973-5, 4/14/2001
You can get this book by copy and paste "最終決戦兵器" or "ISBN4-7698-0973-5" in Amazon's search box. ;)
Surprisingly this book also described Japanese Atomic bomb development project in Tokyo and Kyoto(one member was Hideki Yukawa, predictor of pai meson, who got Nobel prise),and guided weapons(missiles).
Please take care that this book also include many after war works. ;D


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Yukawa


Also described radio weapon by Shinichiro Tomonaga, who got Nobel prise by super many time theory(very precise electro magnetic interaction theory)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-Itiro_Tomonaga
 

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hesham

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blackkite said:
Hi! Kikka three initial plans.
Source : Final decisive weapon(最終決戦兵器), Kojin-sha, ISBN4-7698-0973-5, 4/14/2001
You can purchase this book by amazon.
And youtube.

Great projects my dear Blackkite.
 

Sundog

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T-50 said:
wow! nice drawnings Blackkite san! Japan was further developed in Jet aircraft than most people know(what is a shame but thats a other topic!) They were further than even the US! while they had the complete plans of the Nene engine.
My respect goes to the japanese technicians becouse they build a working engine from a pair of photos from Germany,and they most solve many problems without German tecnical aid.But they did it!!
best regards
T-50
I don't see how you can say they were further advanced than the U.S. in jet technology when the U.S. had four jet fighters, YP-80A's in Europe for operational testing by January of 1945. An aircraft that was superior to the Me-262 except in a dive, where the Me-262 had the advantage and the Kikka was based off of the Me-262.

It reminds me of all of the Luft'46 arguments, where most forget that many of the U.S.'46 designs didn't remain as blue prints, but were actually built and flown, some entering production. I'm specifically referring to the F-82, the only successful "zwilling" fighter I'm aware of and all of Northrop's flying wings, which, while not successes, were much closer to production than any other flying wing technology in the world at the time. There was also the XP-54, XP-56, and a bunch of other designs (Torpedo bombers, etc.) that were built and flown and proved to be nowhere near what was proposed in terms of performance. Partly due to being bad designs and partly due to poor engine performance. I think many of these "foreign" designs from Japan and Germany would have been the same. A few probably would have worked, but a majority of them wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as they appeared on paper.

The one fighter where I do give the Japanese credit for advanced design is the J7W1. It seems they may have been able to get the first modern canard fighter design to work, but I can't say there were enough flight tests to prove it. It did seem like it would have been more successful than the XP-55. Though the other canard that seemed to show promise, had the bugs been worked out, was Italy's Ambrosini S.S.4
 

blackkite

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Thanks to all for rare, good and excellent information.
 

sienar

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Chart from the US bombing survey showing where the Kikka sub assemblies were planned to manufactured and assembled by kyushu.


There is also a photo that is new to me. I'd love to see a higher resolution image if anyone has it.

A series of drawings of a proposed night fighter version, no idea of the accuracy on this.


And a link to details on the instrumentation of the Kikka: http://gunsight.jp/c/english/Kikka-e-3D.htm


Also, what is the general consensus on the most accurate 3-views and plans of the Kikka? Some of the drawings show discrepancies that are a bit more then minor.
 

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T-50

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Hi Blacckite san this Ne201 has a very modern aperiance to me! also their experimental jet engine looks very modern.
greets
T-50
blackkite said:
And prototype Ne201 turboprop engine.
1870shp+600kg thrust
 

Johnbr

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I found this on the net.
http://www.airpages.ru/eng/jp/ki2.shtml
 

blackkite

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Thanks. Amazing!!! :eek:
Kantosha's Aireview magazine special edition, WWⅡ FIGHTERS,DESIGN WITH PRECISION[2] has very precise and detailed Kikka 3-side view by Minoru Mtsuba.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Karyu picture.

In September 1944, the IJA planned to order Kawasaki to manufacture nationalized Me262A.
Later this plan was changed, the IJA ordered Nakajima to develop twin jet engine fighter bomber based on Me262A as Ki-201 in October to December in 1944. 80 or 120 Ki-201 were planned to manufacture from summer of 1945 to March 1946, used as the interceptor and the ship attack aircraft. Almost design drawings were completed in June 1945. Full scale mock up inspection by the IJA was planned in April 1945, No.1 prototype was planned to complete in March 1946 at the end of the war. Karyu was a joint experimental program between the IJA and the IJN same as Ki-200 Shusui. There was a straight wing Karyu plan at the beginning of the design. Finally Karyu had a Me262 type sweep back wing.
 

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blackkite

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According to Japanese wikipedia,
There were three initial proposals for Kikka.
The first proposal's engines were located upper and lower side of the fuselage, tail stabilizers were supported by twin booms.
The second proposal's engines were located each side of the fuselage.
The third proposal's engines were suspended under the wings like Me262.
Although the 2nd proposal was the most progressed shape, the 3rd proposal was adopted as a result of considering the small output of Ne20, and simplification at a manufacture process.
It is said that there was also a problem of a technical side.

So Kikka was a Nakajima's design considering early realization. Karyu was a almost dead cory of Me262. Someone confirmed the name of J9N or J9Y for Kikka by Japanese official documents?

Japanese wikipedia says that Kikka did not have such a name.
 

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windswords

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I think that it has been stated by Hiloki and others that the designation J9Y was not ever given to the Kikka. The middle proposal with the two engines close to the fuselage is similar to the American Bell p-59 Airacomet.
 

blackkite

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windswords said:
I think that it has been stated by Hiloki and others that the designation J9Y was not ever given to the Kikka. The middle proposal with the two engines close to the fuselage is similar to the American Bell p-59 Airacomet.
Yes I think so,too. Also air intake shape was similar to P-80. America's level was very high.
Soviet fighter did not realize side air intake before Mig-23, too.
 

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blackkite said:
Soviet fighter did not realize side air intake before Mig-23, too.
??

Lavochkin La-VRD (project), 1944

Lavochkin La-200B, 1952

Mikoyan "SN", 1953

Lavochkin La-250 Anakonda, 1956

Sukhoi P-1, 1957

Sukhoi T-49, 1960

Tupolev Tu-128, 1961

Sukhoi Su-15 (T-58), 1962
 

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blackkite

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You are absolutely right.
Terribly sorry for my very poor knowledge. :'(
 
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