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Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and "J9N/J9Y" Kikka

Michel Van

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that are interesting Aircrafts

mostly called the Japanese version of the Me-262

because there Origin are from Germany in some form
the Nippon-German Technical Exchange Agreement from 1944
germans ship to Japan with U-Boats Parts and Plans of Me 163, Me 262, V-1 & V-2 and other Technology
but not all U-Boats made it to Japan

so the Nakajima Aircraft Company end up with some incomplete plans of Me-262

nice this legend on the Engine:
Ishikawajima had to build the turbojet engines, but had only amateur picture of a the BMW 003 axial-flow turbojet
on THAT Ishikawajima build the Ne-230 & Ne-130 turbojet !

http://j-aircraft.org/xplanes/hikoki_files/kikka.html
http://j-aircraft.org/xplanes/hikoki_files/ki201.html
 

Pelzig

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Although the Kikka bore a resemblance to the Me 262, it was not a version of the German jet. Also, the J9Y designation has never been verified from wartime Japanese documents and its use by post-war historians is in error despite the logical application of the designation for the interceptor version of the Kikka.

The Ki-201 was, however, the definitive Japanese version of the Me 262, albeit adapted to suit Japanese production capability.

As for the turbojet engine, three manufacturers were provided with access to the BMW 003A Sturm information (which did consist of a photocopy of the engine and some general design data) and told to produce their own versions of the BMW engine. The Ne-20 (as used in the Kikka) was developed by Kugisho while the Ne-130 was to be done by Ishikawajima-Shibaura, the Ne-230 by Nakajima, and the Ne-330 by Mitsubishi.

Just some info. :)
 

Pelzig

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As far as I have been able to find out, the V-2 data was never shared with the Japanese. Two wartime OSS reports said it had been but the sources were never verified and the reports were not given much credence.

However, it was said that U-864 contained plans for the V-2. but it was sunk in February 1945. Because of the 40 tons of mercury cargo, the Norwegian government has given approval to either salvage the sub or cap it. If salvaged, it would be raised. If would be interesting to see what other cargo survived as reports say Me 163 and Me 262 parts were onboard. Perhaps, but not likely, blueprints and other technical data might still remain and could verify what was sent.

As for the V-1 (Fi 103), more than enough information on that reached Japan. The Kawanishi Baika is one such fruit from that data.

Michel Van said:
because there Origin are from Germany in some form
the Nippon-German Technical Exchange Agreement from 1944
germans ship to Japan with U-Boats Parts and Plans of Me 163, Me 262, V-1 & V-2 and other Technology
but not all U-Boats made it to Japan
 

Michel Van

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about the Nippon-German Technical Exchange Agreement from 1944
over a year Japanese, German and 2 Italian U-Boats try to transport good to Japan
non of Japanese I-class Sub made it, some of German made to Japan

Wat were the good ?

Plans and Parts of Aircrafts, Rockets and Weapons
V-1, Me 163 and M262 100% sure they send to japan
V-2 is historical not sure can be translation or misspelling error in Japanese or US documents

intresting stuff is Uranium ore, they it needed for Japanese Nuclear Bomb program
the rest were shipment of Gold, platin etc.

in exchance for Öl, rubber and other stuff the Germans needed
 

blackkite

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Hi! NE-20 engine picture.
Ishikawajiha Harima Heavy Industries (IHI) recently changed it's name to IHI Corporation.
Tachikawa was a one division Ishiawajima.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! NE-20 engine picture(No.2).
 

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blackkite

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Hi! NE-20 last picture. Enjoy.
 

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blackkite

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I forget to tell you that my high school mathematics teacher was a member of NE-20 developing team. He always told us that he could sleep beside operating NE-20 engine.
He might have very tired in that days because of very hard work.
 

tom!

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Hi.

Following the IJN aircraft designation system the Nakajima Special Attacker "Kikka" would have had the designation MXN(number) (most likely MXN1).

J was used for land-based fighters, MX for special purpose aircraft. N stands for the developer Nakajima, Y for Yokosuka (1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal).

So in my opinion "J9Y" is completely wrong. The "Kikka" was not intended as fighter and it was not developed by the 1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal in Yokosuka.

Yours

tom! ;)
 

Michel Van

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Justo Miranda said:
Kikka , Karyu & Me 262 comparative drawings
blackkite said:
Hi! NE-20 engine picture.
Ishikawajiha Harima Heavy Industries (IHI) recently changed it's name to IHI Corporation.
Tachikawa was a one division Ishiawajima.
thanks for Picture

interesting the Nakajima Aircraft are smaller as Me 262 !
this and the wings foldable, the Jets can be hidden easy in caves and tunnels.

Wat a irony Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Co., Ltd. build since 1945 allot Jet engine in Licensed production

tom! said:
So in my opinion "J9Y" is completely wrong. The "Kikka" was not intended as fighter and it was not developed by the 1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal in Yokosuka.
oh no !
"J9Y" is completely right, the problem was at the Imperial Japanese Navy !
first planed as fast attack bomber.
then change to a fighter, for the defence of the home islands
in the end, it was a "special attacker" aka kamikaze aircraft.
 

Pelzig

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Actually, Yokosuka (Kugisho) was very much involved with the Kikka project. Kugisho developed the Ne-20 for the Kikka and it was Kugisho that was giving Nakajima the orders for when to have the mock-up ready and it was Kugisho that studied and evaluated the design. Finally, the wings, center and aft fuselage sections, and empennage for the prototype Kikka were built by Kugisho.

Therefore, the J9Y designation for the proposed interceptor version is, as mentioned, logical.

Just my two cents.



tom! said:
Hi.

Following the IJN aircraft designation system the Nakajima Special Attacker "Kikka" would have had the designation MXN(number) (most likely MXN1).

J was used for land-based fighters, MX for special purpose aircraft. N stands for the developer Nakajima, Y for Yokosuka (1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal).

So in my opinion "J9Y" is completely wrong. The "Kikka" was not intended as fighter and it was not developed by the 1st IJN Air Technical Arsenal in Yokosuka.

Yours

tom! ;)
 

Pelzig

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Speaking of the Nakajima Kikka, I've read that, on August 1, 1945, the 724 Kokutai was formed and was to fly the Nakajima Kikka. Their base was to be in the Tateyama region on the Miuro peninsula along Tokyo Bay, to conduct shimpu missions against the expected Allied invasion fleet.

I've been unable to verify this information and was hoping someone here might be able to verify or deny this unit's existence.

Cheers,

Ed
 

blackkite

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Hi Pelzig! Your information is true. 724 flying corps formed in 1945/7/1 in Yokosuka base(miura peninsula) and removed to Misawa base Aomori prefecture(north end of Japan island apart 1 hour from Tokyo by MD90.) in 1945/7/15. Begin training from 1945/8/1 by 99type carrier base attacker! And planned to remove Miura peninsula to form KAMIKAZE(shinpu) flying corps by 16 Kikkas in 1945/11. They did not received Kikka till the end of the war.
Kikka made 12 minutes maiden flight in 1945/8/6 in Yokosuka base. Second flight was made in 1945/8/11 with two 400kg thrust JATO,failed and destroyed.
When end of the war,No2-No5 Kikka were completed without undercarriage and equipments.
No6-No7 two seats training versions were under construction.
No8-No15 were completed without engines.
Yokosuka base was located in root of Miura peninsula(west side of Tokyo bay) and Tateyama is located in Boso peninsula(east side of Tokyo bay).
Source:Naniwa Party News No94 March 2007.
 

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Pelzig

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Thank you! I appreciate the verification. ;D
 

AeroFranz

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I recently saw two Kikka airframes at the Smithsonian Garber facility. The curator mentioned that one of the airframes, following aborted takeoff, was fished out of the Tokyo bay. It was later fitted with curious fairings over where the engines should be (see picture), but he could not tell me what the fairings where for.

Does anyone know? The only thing I can think of is flying qualities tests in powerless flight while towed behind another aircraft.

???
 

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iverson

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I saw the same Kikka during a visit to Garber some years back. Even at a distance, in a darkish, crowded hangar, the sheet metal work looked much too crude to serve any aerodynamic purpose. My thought was that someone tried to replace or hide missing components prior to some postwar display--the same way people painted swastikas on everything.
 

AeroFranz

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That's a possibility, and while I don't rule that out, my recollection is that the rear of the fairings ends in a streamlined shape. If you were trying to make something look like a turbojet, you'd leave a gaping hole at the rear.
 

iverson

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My thinking was that whoever did the work had never seen a turbojet. They just had big empty tubes and tried to make them presentable--of course, it is just speculation on my part.

I remember the front of the nacelles as being covered by rough, irregularly shaped cones with small openings at the tip--a shape hard to reconcile with a serious attempt at fairing, especially if the rear of the nacelles are, as you say, closed. But it's been years and it was pretty dim in the hanger, so I could easily be wrong.
 

AeroFranz

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I know what you're talking about, regarding the lighting of that place. interesting bit you mentioned about front fairings. I can only hope some report or picture will be found in the archives that can clarify this.
 

blackkite

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Hi!
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/KIKKA/KARYU.html#anchor221395
Nakajima Karyu(火龍:Fire dragon, Ki-201)'s specification (Almost same as Me262)
Wing span : 13.7m, Overall length : 11.5m, Height : 4.05m, Empty weight : 4,465kg,
MTOW : 6,969kg, Engine : Ne130(890kg) or Ne230(885kg)×2, Maximum speed : 812km/h,
Range : 980km, Armament : 30mm cannon×2, 20mm cannon×2, Bomb : 800kg×1, Crew : 1.
 

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gerhard

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Hi

We also know that a number of 2 seater variants of the Kikka were planned and a few Kikka-K variants were already constructed. I wonder if the Ki-201 would have had a two seater variant for training or reconnaissance purposes similar to the Me-262B.

Cheers
 

gerhard

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Hi Guys

My idea if what the Kikka-K would look like.

Cheers
Gerhard
 

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Jemiba

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Is it just me, or do several of those Kikka drawings look like made just by
modifying a Me 262 drawing, especially with regards to the fuselage cross
section ? ;)
 

Pelzig

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The images which look like the Me 262 are renditions of the Ki-201, which was to be the definitive Japanese version of the German jet.


Jemiba said:
Is it just me, or do several of those Kikka drawings look like made just by
modifying a Me 262 drawing, especially with regards to the fuselage cross
section ? ;)
 

T-50

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There was also a interceptor version in development of the kikka,with I believe a radar system.
 

blackkite

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Pelzig

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None of my sources point to the Kikka as being equipped with radar, despite a number of interceptor variants. It was the Ki-201 that was to have the Ta-Ki 15 airborne intercept radar, which, in conjunction with the ground based Ta-Chi 13 radar, the Ki-201 could be directed to targets.

T-50 said:
There was also a interceptor version in development of the kikka,with I believe a radar system.
 

Tzoli

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Pelzig

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The Kikka (or, more accurately, Kitsuka) never received a designation. The whole J9Y/J9K/J8N is completely made up post-war.

Tzoli said:
But question why does the Kikka still designated J9Y1 While it should be J9K1! Yokusuka only designed one such plane the R2Y2 Keiun-KaiKeiun-Kai but that not finished!
 

blackkite

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TsrJoe

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hmm, just musing looking at the black and white pics, what colour undersurfaces, im thinking its (should be) 'orange' ? but iv seen artworks in 'grey' and 'natural metal' too ... any thoughts

cheers, Joe
 

Jemiba

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Couldn't even find a photo proving those yellow leading edges, so often shown on models or CGIs.
An orange underside would make sense for a prototype, but just from a b/w-photo it will be impossible
to prove. What were the regulations for the paintwork of prototypes ? And were they actually applied
during this time, or generally dispensed with, due to lack of time and materials ? If other prototypes
still got it, then you could assume with about 60 % probabiliy, that it was done here, too, I think. ;)
 

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I've used this model photo as a basis to colour the photo:


But what I noticed on the photo is the lack of the nose landing gear's hatch door! Also the colour difference between the top and bottom of the plane suggest a colour pattern like the model had.

So it's not possible it was painted enteirely in orange like here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=100132;topic=5813.15;last_msg=176777

Of course there is this paint scheme which looks good too as the bottom of the plane had lighter colours than the top:


I will show you 2 differently coloured photos of the original
 

Tzoli

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Green-Yellow Paint Scheme:



Orange-Light Orange Paint Scheme:




And sorry for the big sizes I do not know how to resize them IN the forum
 
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