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McDonnell Douglas little known airliners

The Artist

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The Artist said:
McDonnell Airliner Concept 1961 - T-85A?

This model is in the collection of the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum. Not much information with it - only what you see on the tag and the number on the engine.
In going through an incomplete listing of McDonnell Model Numbers (1 July 1974), I have found some information on this that happens to raise some more questions. On page 167 (pages 165 and 166 are missing) I found the continuation of the listing for this model. In the Model Number column is "T-85 (220)", then the Series Letter is "A" - this T-85A matches the number on the engine nacelle. But, Haven't we been told that the Model 220 was the later proposal for the Model 119 Transport? Does anyone have access to pages 165 and 166 of this document?

For what it's worth, here is what I have of the description.

a) WING - 1050 SQ.FT. , SWEEPBACK @ 25% CHORD - 24 DEGREES, DIHEDRAL - 6 DEGREES, THICKNESS RATIO (% CHORD) = 13% (B.L.. 63.0), 9% TIP.

b) HORIZONTAL TAIL - 248.8 SQ.FT. (TRUE AREA), SWEEPBACK @ 25% CHORD = 24 DEGREES, DIHEDRAL = 10 DEGREES,THICKNESS RATIO (% OF CHORD) = 9%

c) VERTICAL TAIL - 208 SQ. FT., SWEEPBACK @ 25% CHORD = 46.5 DEGREES, THICKNESS RATIO (% OF CHORD) = 12%


MAIN GEAR TIRES - DUAL 12.50 X 16 TYPE III. NOSE GEAR TIRES = DUAL 22 X 5.5 TYPE VII. READILY REMOVABLE INTERIOR EQUIPMENT INCLUDES LAVTORIES, LUGGAGE RACKS, SEATS, GALLEYS, COCKPIT DOOR, TRIM AND FORWARD STAIRS.

TWO P.W. JT8D-1
(MCDONNELL REPORT 8337)
 

Mark Nankivil

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Hi Mike -

Model 220 was Mr. Mac's rebranding of the Model 119 for the effort to sell it in the commercial market after losing out to the Jetstar. I've not seen any other efforts to re-engine the 199/220 for just two engines (four JT-8Ds would be overkill squared). The only engine change, which did not occur, was the prototype flying with J-34s but the production version being offered with JT-12s.

HTH! Mark
 

Stargazer2006

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The strange T-85 and T-85A designations were definitely associated with Model 119/220 variants/developments, though I'm not too conversant with the subject.
 

hesham

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Excellent my dear Toura.
 

The Artist

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Mark Nankivil said:
Hi Mike -

Model 220 was Mr. Mac's rebranding of the Model 119 for the effort to sell it in the commercial market after losing out to the Jetstar. I've not seen any other efforts to re-engine the 199/220 for just two engines (four JT-8Ds would be overkill squared). The only engine change, which did not occur, was the prototype flying with J-34s but the production version being offered with JT-12s.

HTH! Mark
I think you've touched on the answer here. The 220 designation was Mr. Mac's rebranding of the model 119. I'm not sure of the date when the designation change too place, but I'll bet it was after the original model 220 / T-85A idea was dead. The number 220 may have been chosen from the available numbers because, like the 707, 880, 990, it is an easier (sexier) number to say in commercial / promotional copy.

Also. Look at the data from that number list. It is describing the T-85A. Most telling is the mention of 10 degree dihedral for the horizontal tail. There is no dihedral on the 119/220 tail.
 

aim9xray

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Throwing out a theory here...

Realizing that the "T-85" and "T-85A" designations are completely outside the canon list of McDonnell designations - could it be that "T-85" was an in-house name for the project - perhaps standing for "Transport - 85 passenger"? Supporting this theory is the observation that the aircraft does look to sized for 85 passengers, just as its' competitors (Trident, DC-9 and 737) were...

By the way, there was a Model 220C configuration with four GE CF-700 engines (aft fan J85).
 

Grey Havoc

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Have you considered the possibility that T-85 and T-85A were Federal Aviation Agency project designations?
 

aim9xray

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The FAA would also apply designations to manufacturer's projects? I've not ever heard of this...can you point me to examples or documentation so I can learn more?
 

Stargazer2006

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Graham1973 said:
ATMR-11 (A misidentification of the ATMR2?)

Likely the umpteenth confusion between "II" and "11"...
 

Grey Havoc

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aim9xray said:
The FAA would also apply designations to manufacturer's projects? I've not ever heard of this...can you point me to examples or documentation so I can learn more?
Prior to 1967, the then Federal Aviation Agency was the lead agency on or otherwise responsible for a number of aircraft projects including the SST effort. It's possible that the T-85 & T-85A were originally designed to meet a requirement or requirements issued by the agency (a Project Horizon spin-off perhaps?), hence their unusual designations.
 

Triton

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Artist's impression of McDonnell Douglas cargo plane concept circa 1970 found on eBay. Original Watercolor on board 13"x19" by renowned Aviation Artist David Garrett Beigle.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aviation-Art-McDonnell-Douglas-Freighter-Cargo-Planes-Concepts-1970-/281287081748
 

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Triton

Donald McKelvy
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Artist's impression of civilian airliner based on the McDonnell Douglas YC-15.

Source:
http://www.dave-beigle-art-enterprises.com/aviation-artwork-memorabilia/#
 

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hesham

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Great find my dear Triton.
 

hesham

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Amazing artist drawings,many thanks.
 

Triton

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I wish that artist Dave Beigle had provided more information about his artwork while employed at McDonnell Douglas.
 

Jos Heyman

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Are any of you in a position to attach design numbers to these pictures>
 

sferrin

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That Douglas 6 strikes me as Sonic Cruiserish
 

Stargazer2006

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As we have an array of McDonnell Douglas airliner-related topics — either very short two- or three- post long topics or long topics such as this one will just about anything in them — may I humbly suggest that the following topics be created?
  • A topic for postwar prop-powered projects (such as DC-7D, DC-7T, Skysentry, Model 1906/A, Model 1940, etc.)
  • A topic for supersonic projects (SST, AST, HSCT, DC-2000 etc.)
  • A topic for double- and triple-deckers (D-918, D-956, D-974, LR-600, MD-12, etc.)
  • A topic for DC-8 derivative designs (Model 1920, AWACS proposals, DC-8 tanker)
  • A topic for DC-9 derivative designs (ATJS, LRAACA, etc.)
  • A topic for DC-10 and MD-11 derivatives (MD-100, DC-10 Twin, MD-11 Twin, etc.)
There could be more elaborate ways to further organize the whole thing and perhaps splitting even more, but I believe this could be a good start.
That would make searching easier and alleviate these long topics a bit... Of course it's a long process and it could be done gradually.
What do you think?
 

hesham

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Stargazer said:
As we have an array of McDonnell Douglas airliner-related topics — either very short two- or three- post long topics or long topics such as this one will just about anything in them — may I humbly suggest that the following topics be created?
  • A topic for postwar prop-powered projects (such as DC-7D, DC-7T, Skysentry, Model 1906/A, Model 1940, etc.)
  • A topic for supersonic projects (SST, AST, HSCT, DC-2000 etc.)
  • A topic for double- and triple-deckers (D-918, D-956, D-974, LR-600, MD-12, etc.)
  • A topic for DC-8 derivative designs (Model 1920, AWACS proposals, DC-8 tanker)
  • A topic for DC-9 derivative designs (ATJS, LRAACA, etc.)
  • A topic for DC-10 and MD-11 derivatives (MD-100, DC-10 Twin, MD-11 Twin, etc.)
There could be more elaborate ways to further organize the whole thing and perhaps splitting even more, but I believe this could be a good start.
That would make searching easier and alleviate these long topics a bit... Of course it's a long process and it could be done gradually.
What do you think?

Very good,


my opinion is like yours,OK.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Good Day All -

On EPay now is this promo artwork for the MD-12:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/McDonnell-Douglas-MD-12-10x8-colour-photo-Concept-double-deck-4-Jet-aircraft-/111404644480?pt=UK_Collectables_Aeronautica_MJ&hash=item19f03bf880

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Triton

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McDonnell Douglas D-3301 concept photo found on eBay.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111404646535

Seller's description:
Douglas D3301 twin-jet wide body concept

Here we have a period concept photo from McDonnell Douglas - Long Beach - circa 1980s

This shows their thoughts on a wide body twin aircraft........cost efficiencies along the lines of the A300 etc

Colour photo on Kodak Paper

Douglas Ref L304434
 

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Triton

Donald McKelvy
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McDonnell Douglas D-3300 concept photo found on eBay.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/McDonnell-Douglas-D-3300-10x8-mono-photo-Concept-twin-jet-wide-body-T-Tail-/111404647691?pt=UK_Collectables_Aeronautica_MJ&hash=item19f03c050b

Seller's description:
Douglas D3300 twin-jet wide body concept with a T Tail

Here we have a period concept photo from McDonnell Douglas - Long Beach - circa 1980s

This shows their thoughts on a wide body twin aircraft........cost efficiencies along the lines of the A300 etc

Douglas Ref L202939
 

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Triton

Donald McKelvy
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McDonnell Douglas AM300 concept photo found on eBay.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/McDonnell-Douglas-AM300-10-x-8-colour-photo-Concept-double-deck-tri-jet-/111404641361?pt=UK_Collectables_Aeronautica_MJ&hash=item19f03bec51

Seller's description:
Douglas AM300 Double deck Tri-jet concept

Here we have a period concept photo from McDonnell Douglas - Long Beach - circa 1980s

This shows their thoughts on a double deck version of the MD-11, note the additional cabin windows and passenger door under the forward fuselage.

Colour photo on Kodak Paper

Douglas Ref L8-000210
 

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hesham

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Hi,


a little info about McDonnell Douglas D-3300 is here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1296.msg193180.html#msg193180
 

Triton

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Artist's impression of McDonnell Douglas multi-body cargo aircraft concept circa 1972 found on eBay. Watercolor by aircraft illustrator David Beigle.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/mcdonnell-douglas-concept-aircraft-cargo-aircraft-illustration-1972/281451171420?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D79155ad223ac4df48c50407e8a015aad%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281451177145&rt=nc
 

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Triton

Donald McKelvy
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Artist's impression of McDonnell Douglas MDDAX concept circa 1972 found on eBay. Watercolor by aircraft illustrator David Beigle.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281451166025
 

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Triton

Donald McKelvy
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Photo of McDonnell Douglas D3300 T-tail concept found on eBay.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHOTO-McDONNELL-DOUGLAS-D-3300-T-TAIL-TWIN-ENGINE-CONCEPT-C-1970s-/171486369346?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ed625642
 

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