• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Japanese 'dream project' battleships and never built battleships

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
There were 3 shipyards which was used to construct the Yamato class: Kure, Mitsubishi Nagasaki and Yokosuka and if I remember a 4th was to be introduced for later ships but I'm not sure which, maybe Maizuru or Sasebo
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,045
Reaction score
2,042
Yamato : Kure
Musashi : Mitsubishi Nagasaki
Shinano : Yokosuka
No.111 battle ship named Kii(紀伊): Kure, terminated

Attached pictures shows carrier Shokaku in Yokosuka, Mitsubishi Nagasaki shioyard and Kure naval arsenal shipyard at the day.

Please try auto translator.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
Not the 4th ship (Some sources states Kii) to be built in a new yard but the future ships most likely the 5th Yamato and the A-150
 

ceccherini

In war there is no substitute for victory
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
49
Reaction score
27
I've read from both Bagnasco's "le navi da battaglia giapponesi 1909-1945" and Japanese Wikipedia that in 1944 it was considered to revome all the 155 mm guns to make room for additional 127 mm AA gun gun from both Yamato and Musashi. The total number of latter would be a staggering 80 in 40 twin enclosed mount, something hard to belive but apparently seriously considered. Has anyone any idea of the intended disposition of such a massive AA armament and possibly some drawings?
 

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
That is not true. The author mixed up the numbers. Yamato did receive it's AA refit resulting in 3x3 46cm 2x3 15,5cm and 12x2 12,7cm Guns. Musashi did not receive it's extra 12,7cm guns prior to her loss due to large number of requirements from the weapon plants, but surely she would receive them after the Battle of Leye Gulf action if she would survive. 40 twin mounts would be not impossible but highly impractical to mount on the Yamatos.
There were not enough mounts and guns at that time.
Even if you remove the two triple centreline 15,5cm turrets, and replace them with 12,7cm twins as well as 2-2 twins at their bases that is only 6 more totalling 18 twins.
Removing the 2nd 46cm turret could free up 3-4 on the barbette and another 4-6 around the barbette for a total of 7-10 more for 28. If you remove all main armament and transforming it into an AA battleship then you can have 40 twin mounts on the hull. And I did not even count the space required for the director and range finder equipment for the extra guns.

So no that is not correct information.
 

ceccherini

In war there is no substitute for victory
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
49
Reaction score
27
That is not true. The author mixed up the numbers. Yamato did receive it's AA refit resulting in 3x3 46cm 2x3 15,5cm and 12x2 12,7cm Guns. Musashi did not receive it's extra 12,7cm guns prior to her loss due to large number of requirements from the weapon plants, but surely she would receive them after the Battle of Leye Gulf action if she would survive. 40 twin mounts would be not impossible but highly impractical to mount on the Yamatos.
There were not enough mounts and guns at that time.
Even if you remove the two triple centreline 15,5cm turrets, and replace them with 12,7cm twins as well as 2-2 twins at their bases that is only 6 more totalling 18 twins.
Removing the 2nd 46cm turret could free up 3-4 on the barbette and another 4-6 around the barbette for a total of 7-10 more for 28. If you remove all main armament and transforming it into an AA battleship then you can have 40 twin mounts on the hull. And I did not even count the space required for the director and range finder equipment for the extra guns.

So no that is not correct information.
Surely there wasn't such a large number of guns (in fact it remained a paper plan) but in terms of weights it's not impossible. Each triple 155 mm turrets weights 180 tons for a total of 720 tons. The 127 mm shielded mount weights 28 tons and the unshielded variant 20 tons. That's enough for 25 shielded mounts or 36 unshielded mounts plus the 6 original mounts. That means 62 to 84 127 mm guns without touching the main armament. It's still far from a solid base for a realistic or viable plan but one solid enough to imagine at least some considerations in a time of panic because of the enemy's air superiority.
 

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
I've never said that is a weight issue. It's about space! A Twin 127mm is not that smaller then a triple 155mm so replacement is 1-1. Also you need directors and if you put a few gun mounts around the main guns you need fully shielded ones for the blast effects. And again directors. Yamato had one director for each 3 such mounts.
Not to mention the ammo handling required for the mountings!

Hell even the USN did not wanted to put that many turrets on the Kentucky: (And they knew the horrors of kamikazes! )


So still not this is not realistic at all. Does the book state any sources?

Maybe you need a visual aid of how large were these mountings?
 

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
I know that photo about those models, while excellent in detail the modeller made a serious error as the 3rd Turret of Fujimoto's Battleship could not rotate because it was put too close to the bridge superstructure.
 

Julio Garay Terrazas

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Messages
24
Reaction score
36
"BEYOND THE YAMATO CLASS" I get and print this text from a japanese page in 1997, when I believe that internet pages would be eternal. Maybe this is the reason that I dont save the other links in "Planned But Not Built".
 

Attachments

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
Yes this describes the Shinano and modified Shinano subclass as well as the A-150 Super Yamato class. As noted info on the A-150 design is very scarce hence myself too made a number of variants based on artists impressions emerged in the recent decades. Though I left out the 3x2 variant as in my opinion that was to be the upgunned Yamato.

My variants:
Variant A:


Variant B:


Variant C:


Variant D:


Variant E:


Variant F:
 

able

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
37
Reaction score
33
That is true. So the main gun should always toword left
I know that photo about those models, while excellent in detail the modeller made a serious error as the 3rd Turret of Fujimoto's Battleship could not rotate because it was put too close to the bridge superstructure.
Because of that reason, the ship must be a left battleship. And with 406mm left Belt, 203mm right Belt.
 

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
That is true. So the main gun should always toword left
I know that photo about those models, while excellent in detail the modeller made a serious error as the 3rd Turret of Fujimoto's Battleship could not rotate because it was put too close to the bridge superstructure.
Because of that reason, the ship must be a left battleship. And with 406mm left Belt, 203mm right Belt.
No, the modeller used this drawing:


Instead of the sketch drawing:
 

able

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
37
Reaction score
33
That is true. So the main gun should always toword left
I know that photo about those models, while excellent in detail the modeller made a serious error as the 3rd Turret of Fujimoto's Battleship could not rotate because it was put too close to the bridge superstructure.
Because of that reason, the ship must be a left battleship. And with 406mm left Belt, 203mm right Belt.
No, the modeller used this drawing:


Instead of the sketch drawing:
Will you draw this ship? I am making Kongo Replacement Design 25K Variant B and Yamato A-140k, your draw help me a lot.
 

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
one day I will
But it will be two drawings because according to two japanese sources there were two versions, a 3x4 (Myoko) and a 4x3 (Tone arrangement) variant

From a Japanese friend of mine:

2012 August number of the "Rekishi-Gunzo" and 2013 February number of the "Maru".
>
>
>
> According to "Rekishi-Gunzo"
>
> Displacement:50000t
> Armour:Belt 406mm , Decks 280mm
> Speed:30knots
> Armament:
> 12(3x4) 510mm gun
> 16 155mm gun
> 8 or 10 127mm AAA
> Aircraft:12 floatplanes
>
> Three turrets arranged like Myoko class.
>
>
>
> According to "Maru"
>
> Displacement:50000t
> Length:290m
> Beam:38m
> Draft:9.8m
> Armour:Belt 16in , Decks 11in
> Speed:30knots(Diesel 140000hp)
> Range:12000nmile at 16knots
> Armament:
> 12(4x3) 510mm gun
> 16 155mm gun
> 8 or 10 127mm AAA
> Aircraft:12 floatplanes
>
> Four turrets arranged like Tone class.
 
Last edited:

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
Not bought, built by England.
And the last ship built in England was IJN Kongo from 1911.
And the last battleship was IJN Katori from 1904.
All subsequent capital ships were built in Japan.
These two 1st class ships, the armoured cruiser and battleship design were from 1904.

And the images you posted about Essex was from WW1
 

Julio Garay Terrazas

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Messages
24
Reaction score
36
As usual, I will say that I do not remember where to get this images. Maybe I got some in 1998 or earlier on some missing internet pages ...
 

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
Mostly Shipbucket drawings the BBCV "Houshou" is a fantasy design theblack and whatie oens are from Siegfried and Beyers Axis Battleship book the coloured A-140 prelimianires are from a Japanese book.
But I suspect you got those from Stefano's old site:
and his gallery:

Since then Siegfried and Beyers drawings are outdated and not accurate anymore.
For the Tosa preliminaries I've already drawn the A-124-127 preliminaries and Tosa/Kaga class.
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,308
Reaction score
355
Those are considered scam sites for some reason, another weird result.
 

Tzoli

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
524
Not scam (maybe the base provider site) if you go through the warning messages you will find many drawings
 
Top