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"Ultimate battleship" designs

ceccherini

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Hello all, I'm searching infos regarding real (albeit conceptual only) battleship projects distinguishing themselves for extraordinary caliber of main guns and/or number of main guns and displacement. I'm aware of the following, some yet briefly discussed in other topics:
-Tillman maximum: 1916/1917 series of studies concerning the largest ship compatible with the Panama Channel locks dimension. 63/80000 tons of displacement, 18 inches vertical Armour, 25/30 knots of speed and a massive armament of 12 to 24 16 inches guns (the latter in sextuple mounts) or 13/15 18 inches guns.
-Russian 1914 superbattleship proposal: a pre-WW1 study for a 45000 tons battleship armed with 16 16in guns in quadruple turrets.
-Kaneda superbattleship: an insane pre WW1 Japanese concept (probably never seriously developed) of an half million tons battleship armed with 100 16in gun in 50 twin turrets
-Fujimoto dream battleship: a 1934 Japanese study of a battleship armed with 12 20in guns in quadruple or triple turrets, 16in vertical belt and 11in horizontal belt in, reportedly, only 50000 tons.
-USN 1934 maximum battleship study: a new "Panamax" battleship study but this time with a 8 20in guns main battery.
-late H series studies: Ww2 german paper projects for an hypothetical postwar battleship incorporating war lessons and a hybrid steam turbine/diesel powerplant. Final design was H44, a 140000 ton battleship with 8 20in guns.
-1944 USN study: a concept of a battleship incorporating war lessons. 106000 tons displacement and an Iowa based hull nearly 1200" long. No data on armament and armour
 

Tzoli

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Kaneda's Design was probably from 1922-23 when he was the director of the Kure Naval Yard.

You can add the last IJN Battleship proposal of a battleship with 51cm cannons on 100.000tons displacement (post "Super Yamato")

But define Ultimate battleship in your thinking.
 

GWrecks

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ceccherini said:
-1944 USN study: a concept of a battleship incorporating war lessons. 106000 tons displacement and an Iowa based hull nearly 1200" long. No data on armament and armour
Huh, never heard of this one. Is it perhaps related to BB65-8? Also, I'm reminded of how Tzoli mentioned how Illinois I think (?) would've had a much changed secondary battery placement when completed (Which reminds me more of a cruiser), so I'm thinking that might have something to do with this design too.

The Russian 16-gun battleship is also new to me.

Also, not really a battleship, but Incomparable would've been pretty big IIRC. Makes me wonder if Fisher ever proposed a standard dreadnought version. Early designs for the Lexington class were also very...long, but only armed with eight 14" guns I believe?

I'm probably not being coherent here...
 

Tzoli

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That is more of a study to see what is required for a ship to be "unsinkable" with torpedoes hence the large tonnage which was mostly associated with the underwater defence system with the longer hull required to maintain the speed of the Iowas.

The Russian 4x4 16" battleship was the ultimate battleship for the Baltic and Black Sea fleets:
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/irn16bb.htm
 

Iron Felix

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From "Superlinkori Stalina" and "Flot, kotoriy unichtozhil Hrushchev":
1935-1936 concepts:
4x4x18" guns, 26 knots, belt 380 mm
3x3x20" guns, 24-28 knots, belt 500 mm
3x2x21" guns, 24-28 knots, belt 500 mm
1945-1955 project "Maximum" (huge variant of Project 24):
Diceplacement - 130 000 ton
Speed to 29-30 knots
Main guns - 4x3x18" L/55 guns: shell 1580-1720 kg, charge 620 kg, muzzle velocity 820-850 mps, range 55+ km, 2-3 rpm
Second guns, or, big universal caliber - 6x220 mm or 8x180 mm universal guns (3x2, or 2x3 220 mm, 4x2, or 2x4 180 mm) - based on Project 84 turrets - double-barrel 180 mm universal guns, 9-10 rpm
Universal guns, or "small" universal caliber - combination of 152 + 100 mm, or only 130 mm guns. 152 mm guns in triple turrets, to 16 rpm, 100 and 130 mm guns in quadriple turrets, to 18 rpm.
I haven't data about AA guns of "Maximum" - on standart Projects 24 it was 12x4x25 mm and 12x4x45 mm - and about armour - on standart Project 24 belt 420-450 mm, decks 245 mm.
...
And, Russian Imperial concepts (from "Posledniye ispolini Rossiyskogo Imperatorskogo flota", S. Vinogradov):
In 1914 projected two type of 16" L/45 guns, with standart 1116.3 kg shell, for Wickers-Armstrong, charge 320 kg, speed 766 mps, and more powerful, for Obukhov plant, charge 373 kg, speed 820-850 mps, range 40+ km.
Also, "by perspective", in 1914 on Obukhov plant projected powerful 18" L/45 gun - shell 1586 kg, charge 540 kg, muzzle velocity 890 mps, range 50+ km.
Engineer Izenbek projected special loading system for main guns, and, in Russian WW1 16 inch battleship projects used turrets with this system. Izenbek system is: feed without intermediate mechanisms, automatic lowering of barrel, and others - analog of Soviet Cold war tank "caroussel" loading system. Standart rate of fire, without extra loads - 4 rpm on barrel (!) in 16 inch caliber, but, "more if needed". And, one Russian 8x16" project - it's acually two 8x16" American or Britich battleship :))) In Russia projected 8, 9, 10, 12 and 16-gun 16" battleships, it's a 35.7, 40.18, 44.65, 53.58 and 71.44 tons per minute - Yamato (9 guns x 1460 kg x 2 rpm) - 26.28 tons per minute. Full analog - Tillman, 5x3x18" guns, 1746 kg, 2 rpm, 52.38 tons per minute.
Also, projected specal distance-operated systems for second caliber, with autoloading of guns. By this concept, second caliber was more lighter than standart - small armoured (only guns and systems). Builted 6" L/50 gun, shell 47.3 kg, 850 mps, and projected 6" L/52 gun, shell 47.3 kg, 914 mps. Also, worked at 7" and 7.1" guns, projected 183 mm L/52 gun - B-1, B-1-K and B-1-P was a Soviet reincornation of this project.
Also, projected armour for big battleship - huge belt by full lenght, 12 inch, 18 inch in center, two 2.5 inch decks. Armoured of turret - to 20 inch.
And, projected type of artillery, 2x4 and 2x2 guns turrets.
Also, projected many guns - special AA, or only automatic.
Based in Maxim gun projected 47 mm auto cannon. Also, created concept of 76.2 and 95 mm (!) Maxim cannons.
Engineer Rosenberg in 1901 (!) projected 57 mm 6-round automatic AA gun.
Brothers Sergey and Vasiliy Valitskiy in 1885 builted 87 mm automatic cannon, based on M1877 field cannon. Maybe, it was first Russian automatic gun ever built.
In 1915 knyaz Chegodayev was projected 19-barrel (Gatling?!) AA gun "in minimall artillery caliber" - in Russian Empire 37 mm.
Also in 1915 engineer Kraukle projected gas-operated revolving heavy machine gun.
 

scorp

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Any images available for those 1935-36 and 1945-55 Soviet projects, Iron Felix? Thanks.
 

pathology_doc

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While we are on the topic of "Ultimate" battleships, does anyone know of any sort of British projects in this regard? I play an online game called "World of Warships" in which the ultimate ship in the British research line is a fiction called the Conqueror. It basically amounts to an upscaled Vanguard with Lion-class 16 inch triple turrets (though the guns are actually 16.5 inch), and an option for 18-inch (original Furious-type) guns in place of the triple 16 inch.

The general consensus among players of the game is that it represents a fictional 1940 reconstruction (along KGV-like lines) of one of the pre-Washington L2-class designs, but I'm wondering if there's anything else weird and wonderful out there that it could be.
 

RLBH

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While we are on the topic of "Ultimate" battleships, does anyone know of any sort of British projects in this regard? I play an online game called "World of Warships" in which the ultimate ship in the British research line is a fiction called the Conqueror. It basically amounts to an upscaled Vanguard with Lion-class 16 inch triple turrets (though the guns are actually 16.5 inch), and an option for 18-inch (original Furious-type) guns in place of the triple 16 inch.
One of the design studies leading to the LION design broadly meets that description, I believe it was 16L38 though I'm sure someone with the books at hand will correct me. Four triple 16", either six or eight twin 5.25", armour and machinery as for the selected design, rather lower speed - possibly only 26 knots or so, from memory.
 

Hood

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The only "ultimate" battleships studied for the RN were the various Lion class studies, if we are defining "ultimate" in terms of timeline.
I'm not aware of any proposals for 16.5in after Washington. The trouble with WoW is that there is a lot of fictional muddying of waters.
 

Tzoli

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That was 16E-38 of the Lion preliminaries:

Difficult to describe an ultimate battleship as such did not exist.
But the most armed battleship designs of the Royal Navy were the ABC designs eg the N3 series with many having triple 18"/45 cannons.
There was the HMS Incomparable BC from Lord Fisher with 3x2 20"

The L2 design looked very diffierent from that WoWs fantasy...

As you can see there were two L2s.
Even if they would had been built they would had a Nelson style bridge, but with modernisation she coudl had got (as proposed for the Nelsons themselves as well) a Warspite like proto KGV bridge.
 

Iron Felix

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While we are on the topic of "Ultimate" battleships, does anyone know of any sort of British projects in this regard? I play an online game called "World of Warships" in which the ultimate ship in the British research line is a fiction called the Conqueror. It basically amounts to an upscaled Vanguard with Lion-class 16 inch triple turrets (though the guns are actually 16.5 inch), and an option for 18-inch (original Furious-type) guns in place of the triple 16 inch.

The general consensus among players of the game is that it represents a fictional 1940 reconstruction (along KGV-like lines) of one of the pre-Washington L2-class designs, but I'm wondering if there's anything else weird and wonderful out there that it could be.
Gun on "Furious":
Gun on 1920-1922 projects:
 

Tzoli

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Yes, the only other capital ship which would carry the 18"/40 cannons was the three Admiral (Hood) preliminaries with 4x1, 3x2 or 4x2 such weapons
 

pathology_doc

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The trouble with WoW is that there is a lot of fictional muddying of waters.
Of which the playerbase itself is well aware, which is why I came here when my poring through Friedman's tome failed to turn up anything of concrete value. If anyone had anything concrete on this, it would be you guys.

Thank you all for your input.
 

pf matthews

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The following comes from an early copy of Warship when it was published as a quarterly 'magazine' instead of its now annual book format. Taken from an article about the Lion class battleships by John Roberts. I have the whole article in pdf format, but the file size exceeds forum limits, so, here are a concept of the 16E 38 (12 x 16in gunned design) and a table of Lion class preliminary designs data.
 

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