IJN "Number 13" Class Fast Battleship

[Triton]

Drawing of the Imperial Japanese Navy "Number 13"-class fast battleship. Although never officially named, the class is sometimes referred to as the Mikasa-class fast battleship. They are often classed as battlecruisers, but they were a larger, better protected and more powerful version of the Kii-class fast battleship. Four members of this class were planned, but construction was cancelled under the Washington Naval Treaty on November 19, 1923.

General Characteristics

Displacement: 47,500 tons normal
Length: 900 feet
Beam: 101 feet
Draft: 32 feet
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 22 boilers, 4 shafts, 150,00 hp, 30 knots
Crew: Unknown
Armament: 4 dual 18/45, 16 single 5.5/50 8 single 4.7/45, 8 24 inch TT (aw)

Ship List

Number 13 Would have been built at Yokosuka Navy.
Number 14 Would have been built at Kure Navy.
Number 15 Would have been built at Mitsubishi.
Number 16 Would have been built at Kawasaki.

Source:
The Ships That Never Were, a Collection of Cancelled Naval Projects 1918-1922 by Peter A Marshall

"World Battleships List: Japanese Dreadnoughts" at HazeGray
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/battleships/ijn_dr.htm

 

[Flying Sorcerer]

Do you have a source for "The Ships that never were"? I haven't been able to locate it on Amazon. It sure sounds interesting.

 

[Triton]

Do you have a source for "The Ships that never were"? I haven't been able to locate it on Amazon. It sure sounds interesting.

I have been looking for the book as well without success. The drawings came from scans of Warships International No. 1, 1999 which cite The Ships That Never Were, a Collection of Cancelled Naval Projects 1918-1922 by Peter A Marshall as the original source.

 

[prolific1]

You know I could make a pretty cool painting of those two images if I had a high res copy of them and some reference as to the details needed.

 

[Tzoli]

I've updating my drawings of this class and in the near future (In a few weeks) I will post them here with more accurate and up to date data as you usually find on the net (For exampel their armament was (for the 46cm armed versions) 46cm/50 cannons (not /45 ones), 14cm/50 Guns and only 4x 12cm/45 AA guns)

 

[Colonial-Marine]

I'm a bit doubtful that this ship would have ended up at "only" 47,500 tons standard loading, especially if it was planned to use 50 caliber length guns.

 

[Grey Havoc]

An extensive integral armor scheme might possibly explain some of the planned weight savings.

 

[Tzoli]

only 305mm armour belt with 15 degrees inclination but you will see.
47.500 was not a valid displacement the smallest, Design A with 5x2 41cm (basically up armoured Kii) weighted 47.600tons
The 4x2 46cm/50 version, Design K weighted 49.000tons

 

[Tzoli]

The most accurate data comes from these official sources in the Hiraga archive:

Tables:

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · 二連、及三連41C/M砲塔搭載艦重量比較大体 · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · 二連装、三連装及四連装41C/M砲塔搭載艦重量比較大体 大正八年十月二十七日 · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · 二連装、三連装及四連装41cm砲塔搭載艦排水量比較大体 · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

Alternative layouts for C and D:

https://iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/r...17#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0&xywh=1889,1082,3656,1650

The two official drawings which seems to survived the past century:
Design D:

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · BATTLE SHIP "D" · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

Design H:

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · BATTLE SHIP "H" · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

 

[Grey Havoc]

We really need a thumbs up emote or similar.

 

[Tzoli]

Here is Design A of the No.13 preliminary series, It is basically an up-armoured Kii with 305mm belt of 15 degrees inclination rather 292mm of 12 degrees. Speed is basically the same but the extra armour and the engine to propell it meant an extra 5.000tons of displacement.

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design A by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 262,13 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 47.600tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: 152.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
5x2 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

Design B was the first step towards something different something new, Triple turrets but placed in Kongo style layout being turbine rooms separated by the 3rd turret.

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design B by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 265,17 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 48.200tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: 153.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
4x3 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

Next is Design C with 3x2,2x3 41cm turrets but in the Hiraga there were two layout variants: 2-3-3-2-2 and 3-2-2-2-3:

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design C by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design C Alternative by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 268,22 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 50.000tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: 156.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
2x3,3x2 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[airman]

Which names of these ships were proposed ? Any suggestions ?

 

[Tzoli]

No that is why they are called Number 13 class as the last 4 of the 8-8 fleet after the two Nagatos, two Tosa/Kagas, four Kiis and four Amagis.
But my idea for them based on if they were considered as Battleship (Province names):
IJN Tajima IJN Bingo IJN Hitachi IJN Chikugo

or as battlecruisers (large mountain names):
IJN Norikura IJN Ena IJN Hotaka IJN Azuma

 

[airman]

No that is why they are called Number 13 class as the last 4 of the 8-8 fleet after the two Nagatos, two Tosa/Kagas, four Kiis and four Amagis.
But my idea for them based on if they were considered as Battleship (Province names):
IJN Tajima IJN Bingo IJN Hitachi IJN Chikugo

or as battlecruisers (large mountain names):
IJN Norikura IJN Ena IJN Hotaka IJN Azuma

Nice suggestion , i have seen the reference and probably could had been names like first suggestions : they were super-battleships based on Tosa .

 

[Tzoli]

Not precisely. Kaga/Tosa was started as an improved Nagato in 1918/19 a modified Tosa was designed with base characteristics of the Kii, Amagi too based on Kaga and BC version of Nagato, then No.13 was begun as an improved Kii.
And Nagsto likely was based on a Vickers export design for Japan (4x2 16")

 

[Tzoli]

Like Design C, Design D too had two variants, the alternative showing a different placement of the 3rd and 4th version. Otherwise this proposal was similar to the Fuso and Ise classes some 10 years prior.

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design D by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design D Alternative by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 271,27 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 52.700tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: 160.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
6x2 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Dorknought]

The BC were named for temples as apposed to just big mountains.

Top of the list for BC would be:
Aoba, Kinugasa, Myōkō, Nachi, Ashigara, Haguro, Chōkai or Maya. Furutaka and Kako were rivers as per cruiser naming conventions.

These ships would nominally be replacement for the turn of the century 1st generation Armoured Cruisers so these could be reused:
Asama, Tokiwa, Yakumo, Azuma, Izumo, Iwate

Under the law No13 were BC so the above are more likely but if Battleships, they tended to be coastal provinces:

Standout ones are Yamato, Musashi and Shinano (Owari, Kii, Suruga and Omi were the Kii Class (No.9, 10, 11 and 12) but as an 8-8 replacement and convincing the population that these ships are ncesessary upgrades then names from the pre-dreadnoughts would be likely: Iwami, Hizen, Sagami, Suwo, Tango, Asahi, Shikishima, Fuji.

The Japanese never reused names from ships that were lost so Yashima, Hatsuse and Kawachi will be off the lists.

 

[Tzoli]

Furutaka and Kako were started as light cruisers so river names are appropiate.

And no, the Battlecruiser namesakes were Mountains as evident with the Kongo and Amagi classes and listed in every sources.
Also your logic of coastal provinces do not stand as 95+% of Japan's provinces are coastal so statistically it is very likely a new battleship gets a coastal province name.
Yet Japan had IJN Yamashiro, IJN Shinano, IJN Kawachi, IJN Yamato (I know it is the old name of Japan but still an inland province)

As for re-using names, the IJN did not built enough capital ships to gotten with the issue of re using older names.

 

[Dorknought]

Yamamoto Naming Proposal

On April 23, 1895, the then Minister of the Navy, Yamamoto Gonbei, wrote and sent to the Emperor a proposed system for naming IJN ships.

In general, names of battleships and first class cruisers shall be selected from names of provinces within the Empire or from names of shrines traditionally dedicated to the protection of the nation.
Names of other warships shall be selected from names of country and provinces within the Empire.
In addition, names can be selected as appropriate in accordance with previous practice, such as the names Shikishima, Asahi, Akitsushima, Yashima, and Fuso, without regard to ship type.

After some refinements, involving such details such as how long after a ship is stricken is its name usable for a new ship, the guidelines that would basically remain intact until the demise of the IJN were established.

History and Technology - Naming of Warships in the Imperial Japanese Navy - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

Significance in Japanese religion
Folk religion has continued throughout the ages to be a very major force in the life of the Japanese people, particularly the aspect of the association between religious beliefs and practices with sacred mountains. This practice of mountain worship holds a significant place in Japanese beliefs and had become widespread throughout Japan’s history. It has been observed that nearly every high mountain top has had its own dedicated shrine at one point, with some receiving pilgrimages every year from thousands of worshippers. This collection of diverse phenomena linking religious activities and beliefs with sacred mountains is referred to as sangaku shinkō.

Three Mountains of Dewa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tzoli]

This still not apply as Battlecruisers and heavy cruisers were named after mountains not shrines, light cruisers after rivers and so on:
I know Japanese people has deep connection to mountains and other natural things.

The system used through the end of World War 2 is as follows.

Ship Type	Source(s) of Names
Battleships	Country/province names
Battlecruisers	Mountain names
First class cruisers	Mountain names
Second class cruisers	River names
Coast defense ships	Old names retained (no new construction)
First class destroyers	Meteorological phenomena
Second class destroyers	Plant names
Torpedo boats	Bird names
Submarines	Numbers

From the Japanese Wiki of the Kongo class:
命名の由来
この頃の日本艦船の命名慣例によれば戦艦には旧国名が名付けられているが、本級はまず装甲巡洋艦（一等巡洋艦）として計画されたことから、同型艦全て山岳名が名付けられている。

Origin of the name
According to the naming convention of Japanese ships around this time, the old country name was given to the battleship, but since this class was first planned as an armored cruiser (first-class cruiser), all ships of the same type are named mountain names.

And the goes for each ship.
Yes mountains with more spritualistic value or history preferred over others but the ships still not named after Shrines. Every source agrees on mountains even Japanese ones.

 

[Tzoli]

Next is the E design introducing the quadruple turret into the IJN:

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design E by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 262,13 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 46.600tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: 150.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
3x4 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

Continue with Version F where the forward quadruple turret got replaced by two twins increasing the survivability of the forward armaments:

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design F by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 268,22 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 48.400tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: 154.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
2x4,2x2 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

Design G is a different approach with the aftermost turret got replaced by two twins but also a firepower increase was in order by a twin turret forward to 14 barrels:

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design G by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 262,13 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 52.800tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: 162.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
2x4,3x2 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

Next is Design H another 14 gunned variant but in only 4 turrets: 3 quadruple and one twin, basically an added twin version of E:

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design H by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 269,75 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 50.600tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: 158.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
3x4,1x2 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

And now the last of the 41cm armed versions and the ultimate such armed designs the I and J with 4 quadruple turrets!

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design I/J by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 262,13 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 54.000tons (standard) on J 50.000tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes, On J 279mm Belt and 102mm Deck
Engines: 165.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
4x4 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

And finally the 46cm armed versions begun with Design K. The official hiraga archive sketches shows that the Breyer stlye drawing of this class showing Nagato style arrangement and single funnels was wrong, but when Breyer collected his data he might not had access to the complete archive.
I've also made a slightly modified version with Y shaped funnel and impred AA guns (4x2 rather 4x1 12cm and added an extra pair of twin 40mm Vickers AA guns)

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design K by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design K V2 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: unknown, I've chosen 271,27 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 49.000tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: Unknown, probably 158.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
4x2 460mm/50 Type 5 / 5th Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Grey Havoc]

Great job!

 

[ngv]

fantastic work as always. To go off topic how long does one of these take to draw up?

 

[Tzoli]

From nothing many hours/days, but if I only had to modifey an existing drawing only a few hours

 

[Tzoli]

Design L is the next step mounting 10 46cm cannons in 5 twin turrets:

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design L by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design L V2 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: unknown, I've chosen 277 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 56.900tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: Unknown, probably 165-170.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
5x2 460mm/50 Type 5 / 5th Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

Next is the 12 gunned 46cm version, Design M:

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design M by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design M V2 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: unknown, I've chosen 274,4 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: 57.200tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: Unknown, probably 165-170.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
4x3 460mm/50 Type 5 / 5th Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes

 

[Tzoli]

And the last of the known No.13 preliminary designs, variant N which only a very small sketch about the number of turrets exists:

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design N by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

IJN No.13 Class Preliminary Design N V2 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: unknown, I've chosen 277,1 (wl) x 32,4 meters
Displacement: Unknown, probably 60.000tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm Belt inclined at 15 degrees, 114mm Deck, 76mm Slopes
Engines: Unknown, probably 170-175.000shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
3x3,2x2 460mm/50 Type 5 / 5th Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes