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Italian Heavy Fighters

Silencer1

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Dear MC72!


In phrase "...the car resembled..." word "car" (road vehicle) has been incorrectly translation of Russian "mashina" (machine) which could mean vehicle, mechanism etc.
So, aircraft could be named "machine" in this text to prevent frequently mentioning the word "aircraft"


Thanks for translation!


P.S. I wonder if Russian magazine could knew more about Italian fighter' project, that Italian sourcres
 

hesham

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hesham said:
on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.


And we spoke before about Canova aircraft,PC140 & PC1500,here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg127170.html#msg127170
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19745.msg191432.html#msg191432


has anybody a more info about Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600 projects ?.
Can I ask if Nardi FN.500 Fighter-Bomber Project involved in this competition or not ?.
 

blackkite

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Is this a Ca.380,too?
Top drawing forget to have radiator. ???
http://www.oocities.org/asymmetrics/cors.htm
http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/2165-caproni-ca380-corsaro/
Ca.380
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=168735;image

"This version of the twin-boom "Corsaro" is described briefly in the June 1960 RAF Flying Review (Page 50): "At one stage in the design the possibility of abbreviating the port boom to result in an asymmetrical aircraft a la Blohn und Voss was considered." (via Linzi Mumford)"
 

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blackkite

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Hi Macchi Bellomo M.B.902!
We can see radiators both side of the fuselage in skeletal plan view drawing.
And also we can see four propeller drive shafts through wing because of contra rotating prop. It's a really Italian design!!
Propeller spinner diameter between No1. drawing and No.3 drawing are apparentlt different. ???
Perhaps we must take care that M.B.902 had contra rotating propeller.
I vote to No.3 drawing. ;D

Specification AUSA MB. 902
Wingspan, m : 14.35
Length, m : 14.51
Height, m : 3.37
Wing area m2 : 31.70
Mass, kg (an empty plane) : 5738
normal takeoff : 7185
Engine type :
2 × FIAT RA. 1050 RC. 58 Typhoon (Diamler-Benz DB 601A)
Power, l, c, : 2 × 1475
Maximum speed, km/h :
690 at an altitude of 6000 m
Cruising speed, km/h : 420
Time sets the height of 6000 m : 6 min. 22 sec.
Range, km : 1700
Range, km : 765
Service ceiling, m : 10500
Crew, pers : 1
Armament : 2 × 20 mm Mauser 151/20,4 × 12.7 mm Breda Mod. 1935

Russian site is super.
http://alternathistory.com/tyazhelyi-istrebitel-ausa-mb902

Where is the radiator?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=292.0;attach=137204;image

pdf file.
http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_exp_a/_italy/umbra%20mb.902/MB902.pdf
 

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blackkite

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Partial auto translation of Russian site.
Heavy fighter AUSA MB. 902
・・・・・・・・
Aeronautica Umbra of Foligno in the enterprise (Macchi) under construction of the first prototype was MB. 902 (MM519).
The first project, which is known from a drawing with three kinds of shows us an airplane, vaguely similar to IMAM Ro 57: with very thin fuselage and small administering surfaces. A key feature was the location of two Isotta Fraschini engines-l. 180 in the fuselage, one in front and one behind the cockpit, but first figure found Alfa-Romeo RA 1000 RC. 411 Monsone (Daimler-Benz DB 601A-1). These engines, with radiators located on the underside of the wing (consoles were located fuel tanks), passed the motion design screws Bellomo (two dvuhlopastnyh screws opposite rotation alternating step in flight) through gears to ensure turn on 90°.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=175018;image
In practice, the plane took the form of a normal aircraft twin-engine two phony profiled motor nacelles. Original description was talking about the possibility of razdvaivat′ the screws themselves, placing them in "tandem" (two screws on the front and back edges of the wing), but this configuration does not exist illustrations and it's easy to assume that she was rejected due to the additional complexities.
The plane was a single-seat monoplane with equal sizes of length and wingspan (approximately 11.65 m) and traditional chassis with tail support. Armament was concentrated in the nose of the plane and consisted of four 12.7 mm Breda machine guns Mod. 1935.

(Apparently September 7, 1939 Captain Bellomo was ordered to build a flying prototype with propulsion in the nose in anticipation of the first flight model.
In July 1941 the year engineer Bellomo went to Foligno, where he met with the Director of AUSA Muzio Macchi in order to implement the project. Immediately after this, 5 July, Bellomo was invited to two engines FIAT RA. 1050 RC. 58 Typhoon (Daimler-Benz DB605A-1), which, according to his statements, the first prototype was ready for flight in the summer of 1943 year. It is possible that at this stage the project was radically revised, because further illustrate that we have this show as another plane.)

Stray far from the project forms characteristic of the thirties, to adopt a more modern look with highly located wing trehopornyh chassis with nasal and četyrehlopastnymi screw
The bibliography contains references to two prototypes in a slightly different configuration (fighter and interceptor/anti-tank) first dealt with the take-off weight of 6700 kg, a maximum speed of 690 km/h and range in 1200 km with armament of two 20 mm cannon and two 12.7 mm machine guns. For the second configuration, the wing area increased from 30 m2 to 31.7 m 2, up to 7200 kg at a speed of 680 km/h and range 1700 km. Submitted drawings will most likely belong to a unified configuration, with features of both versions, and the wing area is different from the minimum 31.7 m 2.

Order for production of two prototypes MB. 902 (MM. 519 and 520 MM) was officially approved by DGCA April 19, 1942, but it appears that the active construction proceeded very slowly. Anyway, the first prototype was captured at the airfield during the Armistice and was destroyed.(Really? Any picture?) The construction of the second, most likely didn't start with the exception of certain structural elements
 

kitnut617

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GTX said:
A pair found recently from the SIAI-Marchetti archives:

Savoia-Marchetti SM.91 heavy fighter prototype
Savoia-Marchetti SM.92 heavy fighter prototype in Luftwaffe markings.
These photos appear in the Green/Swanborough book 'The Complete Book of Fighters', published in 1994, pages 527/528 along with a couple of other photos of them and 3-Views of both. They also appear in a card set I was collecting during the 80's. There's even 1/72 vacuform kits of them done by a company called KPL Models which was selling them pre-1994.
 

blackkite

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Hi! Jona J.10.

http://planetoplano.blogspot.jp/2013/04/the-jona-that-never-took-off.html

http://alternathistory.com/italyanskie-bumazhnye-proekty-proekt-dvukhmotornogo-istrebitelya-jona-10

Specifications
Wingspan, m : 12.75
Length, m : 8.80
Height, m : 3.20
Wing area (flight), m ² : 26.82 (landing gear removed)
Wing area (landing configuration), m ² : 28.82 (chassis released)
The theoretical area when landing, m ² : 39.80 (creation of high lifting force)
Empty aircraft weight, kg : 2000
Payload, kg : 1400
Total weight, kg : 3400
Engine power, HP : 1800
engine Piaggio P. XI. R.C., 30 HP : 980
engine Isotta Fraschini Asso XI R. C. 45, HP : 820
Maximum speed at sea level (2) km/h : 530
Maximum speed at an altitude of 4500 m (2) km/h : 600
The minimum speed of the Earth with flaps, km/h : 105
Cruising speed at an altitude of 2000 m (2) km/h : 500
Cruising speed at an altitude of 2000 m (1 engine), km/h : 385
Ceiling (theoretical), m : 14000
Time-to-height 5000 m : 4 ' 30 "
Range with two working engines, km : 700
Range with one engine running, km : 1000
Wing loading flight, kg/m ² : 127 (landing gear removed)
Wing loading landing, kg/m ² : 118 (chassis released)
Wing loading theoretical when landing, kg/m ² : 86 (establishment of high lifting force)
I wonder how to cool rear engine? ???
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
Table 1 auto translation and add some correction.
Perhaps MACCHI C.301 had skin cooler.
SM 91 early plan had trimotor.
http://alternathistory.com/italyanskie-bumazhnye-proekty-proekty-santandgelo
 

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blackkite

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Ca.350.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.350
The Caproni Ca.350 was an Italian single-engined project of two-seat fighter-bomber/reconnaissance aircraft of the 1930s. Designed by Cesare Pallavicino to meet a requirement of the Regia Aeronautica, it was an innovative and fast design to have been powered by an Isotta Fraschini Zeta R.C.42, but no aircraft were built.

Data from Museo Caproni documentation (Trento - Italia)
General characteristics
Crew: 2
Length: 10.62 m (34 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 13.28 m (43 ft 7 in)
Height: 3.20 m (10 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 23.8 m2 (256 sq ft)
Empty weight: 2,250 kg (4,960 lb)
Gross weight: 3,240 kg (7,143 lb) (reconnaissance mission)
Powerplant: 1 × Isotta-Fraschini Zeta R.C.42 air-cooled X-24 piston engine, 930 kW (1,250 hp) (take-off power)
Propellers: 3-bladed bladed constant speed
Performance
Maximum speed: 647 km/h; 349 kn (402 mph) at 4,200 m (13,780 ft)
Range: 1,448 km; 782 nmi (900 mi) at 4,000 m (13,120 ft) (reconnaissance mission)
Endurance: 4 hr 30 s
Service ceiling: 9,501 m (31,170 ft)
Armament
Guns:
1x 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon firing through propeller hub
2x 7.62 mm (0.300 in) machine-guns in the wings
1x 7.62 mm (0.300 in) machine gun in rear cockpit
Bombs: 200 kg (440 lb) under wings and fuselage
 

blackkite

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Hi! Caproni Ca.335.(SABCA S.47)
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/s47.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.335

"The Caproni Ca.335 Maestrale (Mistral) was an Italian single-engined two-seat fighter-bomber/reconnaissance aircraft of the 1930s. It was designed by Caproni to meet a requirement of the Belgian Air Force, with it being planned that the aircraft would be built under licence by the Belgian company SABCA as the SABCA S.47. Only a single aircraft was built, production plans being stopped by the German invasion of Belgium in May 1940."

PDF file.
http://www.belgian-wings.be/webpages/navigator/photos/MilltaryPics/interbellum/Sabca%20S47/SabcaS47_CharlesMalipwd.pdf
The SABCA S. 47, "L'Aviation Belge", 1938 (French)
http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/250439-belgium-the-sabca-s-47-34l39aviation-belge34-1938-french/
 

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hesham

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Hi,

a small Info about Macchi MC.301,it was twin engined Project,powered by two
Daimler-Benz DB 601 engines.

Italian Aviation Research Branch of Air Britain 1975-04
 

Apophenia

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According to Gregory Alegi, the Macchi MC.301 was to be powered by two 1,200 hp Fiat A.38 V-16 driving contraprops.

Also in March 1940, the Regia Aeronautica ordered three experimental and 12 production A.38 engines, intended for the G.55 and twin-engined Macchi MC.301 prototypes. Meanwhile, Reggiane set to work on adapting the Re.2000 to take the DB 601, thus creating the Re.2001, which made its first flight in June 1940.
pg.24 https://www.scribd.com/document/265012299/Italia-Wartime-Fighter-Crisis

The matricola militare MM438 and MM439 were reserved for MC.301 prototypes.
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Apophenia,

maybe my source was wrong ?.
 

iverson

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"maybe my source was wrong ?."

Not necessarilly.

I know nothing about the MC.301. But, while the Fiat G.55 was planned around the Fiat AS.38 RC.15-40, the engine never appeared in flight-ready form. The G.55 had to be redesigned for the DB.605. The DB.601 would have been roughly in the same power class as the AS.38 RC.15-40, around 1200 hp. And the DB.601 was substituted for less satisfactory engines in other adapted, twin-engined, Italian aircraft, notably the C.A.N.S.A FC.2Oquater and I.M.A.M RO.58. So perhaps the MC.301 designers chose the DB.601 as a substitute.
 

hesham

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Hi Iverson,

here is the page about MC.301.
 

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blackkite

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What is the meaning of these drawings?
http://www.rcaeromodellismo.it/main/2014/imam-ro-57-bis-buil-log-by-massimo/
 

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Cy-27

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Translation of the modellers entry:

"
from above
The prototype at the time of testing, the prototype presented in Guidonia (MM407) (top & bottom - ro-10.png )
The mono-gun version (MM75314, MM75316 / MM75354) (top - ro-11.png )
The twin-gun version (MM75355 / MM75513) (bottom - ro-11.png )
The square-gun [sic - four gun?] version (MM75315) (ro-12.png )

With the arrows I highlighted all the different parts between models and modifications to do on my model under construction."
 

blackkite

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Wow thanks a lot. Super!! :D
 

blackkite

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Umbra MB.902 propeller diameter is 2.8m.
Source : http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_exp_a/_italy/umbra%20mb.902/MB902.pdf

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=561899;image
 

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hesham

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All Info about Santangelo fighter;

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala/L'Ala%201947%20011.pdf
 

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blackkite

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Oh MB.902!! Thanks a lot. :D Single propeller? Propotion is good.
This document says that span is 14.36m, length is 14.32m.Wing area is 31.7 square m.
Another document says that span is 14.35m, length is 14.51m.Wing area is 31.7 square m.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=564834;image

Other drawings are here.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=561899;image

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2984.0;attach=560640;image
 

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blackkite

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Hi! SM.92.
http://www.aereimilitari.org/forum/topic/10634-spaccati/page-17
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.
Also Umbra TR.18,Caproni-Reggiane Ca.401,Caproni Ca.150 & Ca.162 were involved.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
hesham said:
on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.
Also Umbra TR.18,Caproni-Reggiane Ca.401,Caproni Ca.150 & Ca.162 were involved.
I want to know the different between Umbra AUT.18 and TR.18,I know the first was a single
engined fighter and the second was a twin engined heavy fighter (as I guess) ?.
 

lucamax

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Dear,
here it is the Breda 600 heavy fighter single seater project, designed in november 1938 by Mario Pittoni and Vittorio Calderini.
According to the source (Gente dell'Aria - Giorgio Evangelisti), the project was studied around 2 Isotta Fraschini Asso and it was armed with 2 machine gun of 12,7 mm.
The calculated speed was of 600 km/h.
The project, however, remained only to the papaer.
Regards.
 

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blockhaj

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I remember doing research on italian heavy fighters a while ago and found some monster with 8x 20mm guns. Which one was that?
 

Drive

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blockhaj said:
I remember doing research on italian heavy fighters a while ago and found some monster with 8x 20mm guns. Which one was that?
Probably it was the Breda BZ.303 Leone II https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_BZ_303
 

hesham

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hesham said:
hesham said:
hesham said:
on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC.1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.
Also Umbra TR.18,Caproni-Reggiane Ca.401,Caproni Ca.150 & Ca.162 were involved.
I want to know the different between Umbra AUT.18 and TR.18,I know the first was a single
engined fighter and the second was a twin engined heavy fighter (as I guess) ?.
I get the difference,the TR.18 was a two-seat ground attack aircraft Project when Mr. Felice
Trojani was in USSR,but after he return to Italy,he redesigned his early concept as AUT.18,
but as a single-seat heavy fighter airplane ?.
 

blockhaj

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Drive said:
blockhaj said:
I remember doing research on italian heavy fighters a while ago and found some monster with 8x 20mm guns. Which one was that?
Probably it was the Breda BZ.303 Leone II https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_BZ_303
No something that was built, there was a black and a white photo i remember showing 8 clear 20 mm's mounted, 4 in wings and 4 in the nose. I seriously cant find it now. :C
Maybe it was a mockup?
 

Skybolt

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Back again. There will be in a very short term some news abot initially the SM-91/92, both derivatives of the SM-88 (in reverse order).
BTW, the drawing of the CR-55 in some post ago is complete fantasy. No one has seen a drawing of it in the last 73 years, or at least bothered to publish it anywhere (the 1945 date is not random chosen).
And, BTW, if it was even remotely similar to the true one, it would have been a CR-55bis. The straigth version had a central fuselage, a la' P-38. Please beware of fakes or flights of fancy.
Cheers
 

iverson

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lucamax said:
Dear,
here it is the Breda 600 heavy fighter single seater project, designed in november 1938 by Mario Pittoni and Vittorio Calderini.
According to the source (Gente dell'Aria - Giorgio Evangelisti), the project was studied around 2 Isotta Fraschini Asso and it was armed with 2 machine gun of 12,7 mm.
The calculated speed was of 600 km/h.
The project, however, remained only to the papaer.
Regards.
Weren't most of the Asso-named engines upright, liquid-cooled types? I think that they are air-cooled, inverted, IF Delta V-12 engines.

The front view clearly shows that the engines are an inverted type, with what I take to be exhaust stubs on the inside of the V, like the Delta. The oval front intake is also typical of the Delta, and the oblong objects on the outside of the nacelles in the side view could be fairings for the cooling air exiting the cylinder baffles. Two would produce 1400-1500 hp, which seems about right for the time.
 

Skybolt

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Assos were all upright V or W liquid cooled. The Delta series (I to IV) were inverted v and air cooled. Indeed, the fact that an aircraft was Delta-powered is immediately betrayed by the V air intake under to propeller shaft.
 

zeroc

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lucamax said:
Dear,
here it is the Breda 600 heavy fighter single seater project, designed in november 1938 by Mario Pittoni and Vittorio Calderini.
According to the source (Gente dell'Aria - Giorgio Evangelisti), the project was studied around 2 Isotta Fraschini Asso and it was armed with 2 machine gun of 12,7 mm.
The calculated speed was of 600 km/h.
The project, however, remained only to the papaer.
Regards.
...now is also on your screens! ;D
 

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