Giraffe tanks

[Sea Skimmer]

The PLA is pretty weak on the helicopter front, so are most people. Vehicles like this are much cheaper then helicopters and associated training and fuel. I doubt it will be produced, but mainly because China has an overflowing supply of weapons projects. Even the systems that make it into production are too numerous and holding back the modernization of the PLA.


As for cluster bombs, 68 nations did ban them, most of them nations that also had little actual ability to fight a modern war and would run out of ammo in a week. The big militaries like the US, Russia, India and China that are actually serious about war fighting didn't and aren't about to ban large portions of ammunition stockpiles with no replacement. This got kind of glaring in Libya when the British and French who signed onto the ban then ran out of guided bombs flying only a few dozen of the supposedly hundreds of jets they own; when many of the targets being attacked would have been ideal for cluster bombs, as well as little threat to civilians, like ammunition stacked in berms in the open in remote desert depots. This while fighting against only part of the military of a nation of 6 million people. Most nations which have not yet ratified the convention never will, because even if they agree with the spirit of the treaty, its terms are very restrictive and actually ban most sorts of smart guided anti armor cluster bombs as well as the troublesome dumb types.

 

[xiaofan]

Interesting. Assuming that it is a testbed for a system similar in concept to the Panther, are/were they intending to use, say the Type 96 chassis for the actual system, do you suppose?

The Type 96 would be a reasonable, if high cost option. Lower priced options are the ZBD04 or the new general purpose chassis that looks like a development of the Type 89 APC for tracked vehicles, or, for wheeled vehicles the new VN-1 series (ZBD09) or even the Saanxi HEMTT equivalent.

The Type 96 would be an unreasonable option, for export and domestic.

For domestic ues PLA has a lots of chassis to choose from, both unarmoured and armoured, the high cost option will be the Type 59/69 chassis, for middle cost tracked chassis there are Type 63 APC, old Type 89 APC ( not the new one) and Type 86 IFV, for middle cost wheel chassis there is Type 92, and lowest cost option is on truck. If PLA do produced this system, it certainty a transition system stand in untill attack helicopters like Z-10 and Z-19 or armed UAV come of the production line, also PLA already have plenty of conventional tank destroyer and tank on hand, so there no point for PLA to spend alot of money and effort on it, and thses older chassis would do the job well.

For export Chinses target markets are third world countries Type 96, ZBD04, new general purpose chassis and VN-1 series (ZBD09) are way too expensive for them to use for this purpose, however there are plenty T-54/55, T-62 even T-72, BMP-1/2 and BPR-60/70.

 

[Grey Havoc]

You don't think they would convert any of the available Type 88 chassis for a high end PLA version?

 

[xiaofan]

You don't think they would convert any of the available Type 88 chassis for a high end PLA version?

No. PLA only have small amount Type 88, if PLA do produced this system it more likely on lighter APC or IFV chassis.

 

[Grey Havoc]

No. PLA only have small amount Type 88, if PLA do produced this system it more likely on lighter APC or IFV chassis.

Such as the ZHB94 armoured resupply vehicle perhaps?

 

[xiaofan]

No. PLA only have small amount Type 88, if PLA do produced this system it more likely on lighter APC or IFV chassis.

Such as the ZHB94 ARV perhaps?

Yes. Another chassis would be 6X6 Type 92.

 

[eshelon]

All giraffe tanks of ">6 meters above the ground" group:

- missiles -
1. Panther (Germany) and Panther 2 (GER-UK-FRA)
2. Giraffe (Germany)
3. EPLA / PzJgKw-LKW (Germany)
4. EXF DFS (Direct Fire Support) / PzJgKw-Rad (Germany)

5. elevierbare kampfplattform (Germany) note: uses counter IED&UXO folding arm

6. Leopard+ADATS (Switzerland)
7. Challenger+TRIGAT (United Kingdom)
8. M-95 Kobra (Croatia)
9. Dragon (Poland)

10. M113+TOW (USA)
11. ETS (Elevated TOW System) (Denmark)
- laser -
12. HELEX / German Antiaircraft Laser System (Germany)
- gun -
13. Panzerkampfwagen 2000(?) (Germany)

 

[Jemiba]

The "Panzerkampfwagen 2000" looks, as if the complete manned turret would have been lifted by the jib ?
And if retracted, it fits neatly into the rear part of the vehicle ! That leaves open question, if there still
would have been enough room for the engine, not to mention problems with balancing the extended turret.

 

[eshelon]

Jemiba, it's only concept, not project. Project would have minimal, unmanned turret like in Teledyne Expeditionary Tank and recoilless or other "special" gun.

 

[Jemiba]

Ah, ok, sorry, thought, that it came from some kind of publication and then I would have
expected a more difinitive visualisation, but as I understand, you made that sketch by yourself ?

 

[eshelon]

No, it's not my work. Found on the Internet accidentally. No details, "Panzerkampfwagen 2000" is very bad and not enough to search.
But very similar picture (or "Panzerkampfwagen 2000" is his version) can be found in russian patent

BTW another found giraffe tank patent, the "two-head giraffe tank" B)

http://www.google.com/patents/EP0378157A1?cl=en

 

[Jemiba]

Thanks for the clarification, the russian patent drawing looks like, what I would expect of
a gun armed giraffe tank. The "Panzerkampfwagen 2000" seems more like an explanation
of the benifits of such a vehicle: "That's a standard tank, with a very restricted field of fire. And
now, just imagine, we would put the turret on a jib... !"

 

[eshelon]

Want more drawings?

 

[Jemiba]

Of course ! Interesting concepts, although I still somewhat doubt practicality, due to
the fragility at least of the telescop mast. Main use, to my opinion would be as a
kind of radar/sensor picket.

 

[eshelon]

Mentioned earlier with other "special" (construction) gun

Elevated turret (russian) tank of 1943 (concept)

non-">6 meters above the ground" group

articulated tank and giraffe tank hybrid (very advanced project - main weapon is railgun or ETC gun)

weapon on the mast: ATGM or 20-30 mm cannon

 

[Avimimus]

Great research. Very neat stuff!

The two-headed tank is very interesting.

 

[jsport]

Want more drawings?

wow of course.. muh appreciated for posted and yet to be..

 

[Jemiba]

The twin brings up the idea, if today the connection between both parts could be made longer,
via radio command link, or maybe via reeled off cable. Would bring the crew out of harms way,
if the shot of the main gun is traced back. The Giraffe part hides perfectly, with just the sensor
popping out, the gun part uses a good firing position.

 

[Rickshaw]

Are you sure this is dated 1943? The hull appears very advanced and almost T-44 or T-54 in concept.

Elevated turret (russian) tank of 1943 (concept)

non-">6 meters above the ground" group

 

[eshelon]

No. That is the name of this drawing - whether it contains truth, I don't know.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Great research. Very neat stuff!

The two-headed tank is very interesting.

Regarding that, it seems likely that General Dynamics Land Systems now own the rights to that concept/design (via the acquisition of Eisenwerke Kaiserslautern's defence related interests in 2002).

 

[tround]

another photo

 

[Rickshaw]

Looks like a standard ADATS turret on top of that.

 

[tround]

Yes , it's the standard turret and the radar is on another vehicle .

 

[tround]

For me the anti-tank helicopters ( Bo105 , Gazelle ...) are better than these concepts .
The helicopter is better for ambushs and "hit and run" tactics .

 

[eshelon]

Helicopters are vulnerable to gunfire, and they are air not ground anti-tank platforms.
"Giraffe tanks" are much better ground weapon than MBTs (true multipurpose and harder to destroy).

 

[moin1900]

Lifting gun mount for battle tanks - Rheinmetall GmbH 1984
http://www.google.com/patents/EP0185871B1?cl=en


Combat vehicle with extendible combat platform
http://www.google.com/patents/US5129308


8x8 with HOT

http://www.armyrecognition.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1001&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=5198411a9dcaac3f673c5140e30d273f

 

[jsport]

Absolutely facsinating posting moin1900. Thank you
j

 

[tround]

A true MBT is better than a giraffe tank in urban fighting . ( problems with sights , Firepower kill easy ... )
It's a specialized machine . It's only a Panzerjeager or a SP anti aircraft tank or both with the ADATS .

 

[eshelon]

8x8 with HOT

A photo from the firing trials of EPLA

Meppen, July 1987. A total of 5 HOT missiles were fired, 3 with the gunner in the vehicle, the other 2 with the gunner manning the missile platform. All 5 missiles hit their targets.

(from "What If: A World Frozen In The Cold War" (TankNet))

 

[Abraham Gubler]

For me the anti-tank helicopters ( Bo105 , Gazelle ...) are better than these concepts .
The helicopter is better for ambushs and "hit and run" tactics .

Helicopters with ATGMs are far more lethal than the same ATGM mounted on any ground vehicle. But the two are far more equal. The helicopter is far more expensive to raise (buy, train) and sustain (fuel, maintain, train). Also the helicopter is not an enduring asset on the battlefield. It would require multiple helicopters to keep one in overwatch 24-7 in a certain area compared to a single ground vehicle.

The Giraffe tank ATGM launchers were part of NATO’s response to the anti-tank problem they discovered they had in the 1970s and 80s. ATGMs had been acquired and fielded in large numbers because they were highly effective at destroying tanks. But then after tactical simulation in the field of the central Europe indicated there was a significant problem. That was the combination of the likely engagement ranges with the slow engagement time of the ATGM (thanks to slow time of flight of the missile) meant that the available launchers would not be able to attrite advancing Soviet armoured columns to the level that had been hoped for and was required. The range was just too short and the ATGMs fired to slowly while the Soviet tanks moved to quickly to get off the number of shots needed.

So in response there were two avenues of approach: reversion to guns with high rates of fire for anti-tank use and a few systems were explored in the 70s and 80s, or increase the field of regard for ATGMs. The Giraffe tank achieved the later by raising the launcher well above ground level on the available terrain. They were now able to leverage the maximum range of their ATGM not just the terrain range. Giraffe tank ATGM launchers could now fire their available unit of fire at advancing Soviet tanks before needing to displace backwards, reload and take up a new firing position. This would have enabled them to attrite at a far higher rate than ATGMs mounted on the roof of firing units.

Fortunately the Soviet Union collapsed and the need for Giraffe tanks evaporated overnight.

 

[Avimimus]

That makes sense. It also provides more protection from counter-fire (i.e. the raised pod has a lower cross-section and is harder to target - so the likelihood of being sighted and hit by a tank-gun is less).
I wonder if such elevated systems would be useful for COIN and escort type situations (albeit carrying a machine gun or grenade launcher)? Being able to look over low berms, walls and vehicles could be helpful.

 

[CostasTT]

I wonder if such elevated systems would be useful for COIN and escort type situations (albeit carrying a machine gun or grenade launcher)? Being able to look over low berms, walls and vehicles could be helpful.

There is already such a system with similar capabilities to those you mention on offer. Meet the BRDM-2MB1 with Adunok RCWS on an elevatable platform.

 

[tround]

In fact antitank helicopters and giraffe Tanks are complementary ( the airland battle doctrine ) . They cannot be compared .

 

[moin1900]

"Trilateraler Versuchsträger" Panzermuseum Munster
http://www.multi-board.com/board/index.php?page=Thread&postID=662373
Here another Giraffe Tank unknown chassis
http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/vt-marder/006g.jpg
http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/vt-marder/vt-marder.htm
Many greetings

 

[Jemiba]

Two vehicles with elevating masts for the PARS 3LR missile system are shown in „Typenkompass Artillerie-, Panzer-
und Luftabwehrsysteme der Bundeswehr“, by K.Anweiler and Manfred Pahlkötter. One of them is probably the same,
as shown in #23 and 46, on a 8 X 8 MAN chassis, the other uses the "Panther" based on the Leopard 1.

 

[ekrano]

Preying-Mantis tank .... video of the initial prototype here ...

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

View: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-umbpabDnSNE/county_trucks_and_bren_carrier_based_praying_mantis_tank/


Seems to me that it would have been ok (but better on a heavier, more stable fast chassis) for the purpose that it was designed for i.e. sniping over hedges & into sunken laneways against an invading enemy in Southern England.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I would suspect that they came to regret their decision to reject the Preying Mantis when Normandy rolled around.

 

[eshelon]

VelociRaptor EWS (Elevated Weapons Systems)

more info -> http://www.willburt.com/products/telescopic-masts/velociraptor/

unknown giraffe tank

 

[CostasTT]

More on the VelociRaptor:

http://www.militarysystems-tech.com/military-gallery/the-will-burt-company/velociraptor-portable-telescopic-mast

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