T-72 Hull with Leopard 2 Turret?

[Christopher Wang]

A Swedish modeler named Björn Bäcklund ( https://baecklund.eu/scalemodels/ex72/modern.html ) created this 1:72 scale model of a hybrid Polish main battle tank combining the hull of a T-72 with the turret of a Leopard 2.

Bäcklund created the model back when Poland had recently joined NATO in 1999. As explained by Bäcklund, Poland faced the challenge of conforming to NATO standards while possessing a large Cold War era stock of Soviet military equipment such as the T-72. Bäcklund claimed that one option that was considered was to rebuild the T-72s with old Leopard 2 turrets. He also claimed that he had seen a sketch of the T-72 with the Leopard 2 turret. Ultimately, Poland decided to acquire 128 Leopard 2A4 tanks from German army stocks in 2002 and ordered a further 119 ex-German Leopard 2s in 2013.

The closest real-life equivalent could be India’s MBT-EX / Tank Ex / Karna prototype main battle tank designed by Defence Research and Development Organisation or DRDO.

The MBT-EX / Tank Ex / Karna MBT combined the hull of the imported T-72 with the turret and 120-mm rifled tank gun of the domestic Arjun MBT. It underwent six months of trials, but was subsequently rejected by the Indian Army. A total of eight prototypes were built.

Interestingly, the Arjun MBT shares a similar layout to the Leopard 2.



This begs the question: Has there ever been any real-life proposals to combine the T-72 hull with the Leopard 2 turret?

It would help to know the turret ring dimensions of both the T-72 and Leopard 2. Various online sources such as Tankograd ( https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/p/home.html ) state that the Leopard 2 has a turret ring diameter of 1980-mm. Meanwhile, the T-72 possesses a turret ring with an external diameter of 2275-mm, a bearing pitch diameter of 2116-mm, and an internal diameter of 1934-mm.

 

[helmutkohl]

Noob question on tanks

why would you want to keep the hull of the T-72, or any hulls in general?
Often when I see upgrades.. they tend to keep the hull but change the turret (I think the Challenger 3 also keeps the 2's hull?)
doesn't the hull also need some major changes in armor, engine, etc?

 

[Dilandu]

why would you want to keep the hull of the T-72, or any hulls in general

Because its much more compact, have better frontal protection and dymamic is much better than on massive Leo-2.

 

[Zaskar24]

My biggest concern would be main gum ammunition storage. The Leopard 2 stores 15 ready rounds in the turret bustle with the remainder being at the front of the hull while the T-72 stores all of its rounds in the carousel underneath the turret. And we have seen how well the T-72 does when the carousel is hit when it comes to retaining it's turret.

I do believe that putting the turret from a Leopard 1 was looked at somewhere in Southeast Asia, there was a picture that I cannot find right now.

 

[stealthflanker]

nd we have seen how well the T-72 does when the carousel is hit when it comes to retaining it's turret.

To be fair tho. Same thing can happen with Leopard-2's hull storage like we seen in Syria. The only tank in existance with truly "safe" ammo compartment was M1 Abrams.

Any westernization of T-72 with western made turret is unlikely to retain the carousel. This will however come in cost of change of CoG of the tank and some changes in ammo capacity. If Leopard-1 Turret is used.. odds are the carousel will be gone to provide space for the turret crew.

 

[Zaskar24]

nd we have seen how well the T-72 does when the carousel is hit when it comes to retaining it's turret.

To be fair tho. Same thing can happen with Leopard-2's hull storage like we seen in Syria. The only tank in existance with truly "safe" ammo compartment was M1 Abrams.

Any westernization of T-72 with western made turret is unlikely to retain the carousel. This will however come in cost of change of CoG of the tank and some changes in ammo capacity. If Leopard-1 Turret is used.. odds are the carousel will be gone to provide space for the turret crew.

Very true about tanks with hull storage.

It was actually a Leopard 1 hull with a T-72 hull looked at in Malaysia that I was thinking about. Which makes more sense as it is an increase in firepower.

 

[GTX]

It was actually a Leopard 1 hull with a T-72 hull looked at in Malaysia that I was thinking about. Which makes more sense as it is an increase in firepower.

I think you mean Leopard 1 hull with T-72 turret:

 

[GTX]

Something along the lines of this was the Polish Bumar PT-16 which essentially an upgraded version of the PT-91/T-72 hull fitted with a new welded turret, which is armed with a 120 mm smoothbore gun:

Poland develops new PT-16 main battle tank

One of Polish biggest military manufacturers unveils the new PT-16 main battle tank. That was reported by below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com. The new tank is supposedly called PT-16, but it is not clear if this is the final name. It is mainly meant for export, as the backbone of the Polish tank...

defence-blog.com

Back from the dead: Anders and PT-16

Yesterday Polish sources started to tease new armored fighting vehicle developments, today first footage of the two new developments has be...

below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com

 

[Zaskar24]

It was actually a Leopard 1 hull with a T-72 hull looked at in Malaysia that I was thinking about. Which makes more sense as it is an increase in firepower.

I think you mean Leopard 1 hull with T-72 turret:

You are correct and thank you for catching that. Thank you as well for posting the pictures.

 

[Christopher Wang]

I'm bumping this thread by repeating my question: Has there ever been any real-life proposals to combine the T-72 hull with the Leopard 2 turret?

To be clear, I do not mean the Malaysian tank project combining the T-72 turret with the Leopard 1 hull.

Besides India's MBT-EX / Tank Ex / Karna, has there been any other proposals to fit a Western three-man (Commander, Gunner, & Loader) tank turret onto a T-72 hull?

 

[Fluff]

I'm bumping this thread by repeating my question: Has there ever been any real-life proposals to combine the T-72 hull with the Leopard 2 turret?

To be clear, I do not mean the Malaysian tank project combining the T-72 turret with the Leopard 1 hull.

Besides India's MBT-EX / Tank Ex / Karna, has there been any other proposals to fit a Western three-man (Commander, Gunner, & Loader) tank turret onto a T-72 hull?

Is it possible just to start with their turret ring diameter? I.e. is it remotely possible?

 

[riggerrob]

Something along the lines of this was the Polish Bumar PT-16 which essentially an upgraded version of the PT-91/T-72 hull fitted with a new welded turret, which is armed with a 120 mm smoothbore gun:

Poland develops new PT-16 main battle tank

One of Polish biggest military manufacturers unveils the new PT-16 main battle tank. That was reported by below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com. The new tank is supposedly called PT-16, but it is not clear if this is the final name. It is mainly meant for export, as the backbone of the Polish tank...

defence-blog.com

Back from the dead: Anders and PT-16

Yesterday Polish sources started to tease new armored fighting vehicle developments, today first footage of the two new developments has be...

below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com

That article makes vague reference to a bustle-mounted, auto-loader.
We wonder how closely the Polish PT-16 resembles the bustle-mounted auto-loader on the Ukrainian T-84M Orlot conversion.
Do either the Polish or Ukrainian conversions include blast-proof doors ala. M1 Abrams?

I predict that the current foolishness in Ukraine will force dozens of second and third world nations to do major refits of their fleets of communist era tanks. The primary objective will be to eliminate the jack-in-the-box failure mode .... er turret blown off by an ammo fire. Upgrades to drive trains and fire control electronics will be far more expensive than turret upgrades.

Sometimes adding a turret bustle REDUCES loads on turret traverse mechanisms (see Sherman Mark V Firefly) especially when parked on a hillside.

 

[GTX]

I predict that the current foolishness in Ukraine will force dozens of second and third world nations to do major refits of their fleets of communist era tanks. Upgrades to drive trains and fire control electronics will be far more expensive than turret upgrades.

I doubt it. No need to waste the money.

 

[Christopher Wang]

As of January 10, 2023, Poland has announced that it would send a company of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. A tank company typically has 10 to 14 tanks in three platoons plus a headquarters element. Germany, Finland, and other nations using the Leopard 2 could also possibly send their tanks to Ukraine. If the transfer of tanks to Ukraine does go through, we could see Leopard 2s and T-72s operating alongside together in the Ukrainian Ground Forces.

With this news, it's an opportunity to repeat the question: Has there ever been any real-life proposals to combine the T-72 hull with the Leopard 2 turret?

 

[GTX]

You already asked the question - I doubt you are going to get any different answers.

 

[paralay]

Recognition of the inconsistency of the protection of the Leopard 2A4 tank with modern Russian means of destruction: for the armed forces of Ukraine, it is retrofitted with grids and dynamic protection "Contact-1"

 

[Christopher Wang]

Going back to Björn Bäcklund's original post (https://baecklund.eu/scalemodels/ex72/modern.html), is it actually possible to fit the Leopard 2's turret onto the T-72's hull?

Is there any truth to Björn Bäcklund's claims about a T-72 / Leopard 2 hybrid?

 

[Apophenia]

... is it actually possible to fit the Leopard 2's turret onto the T-72's hull? ...

I don't see why not. The T-72 has a larger turret ring diameter would dictate a spacer of some kind. Compared to the Leopard 2, a T-72 hull may be slightly shallower (with almost half of that depth taken up by the now-redundant ammunition carousel).

The resulting hybrid would be a bit taller and heavier than the original T-72. On the upside, increased gun depression would make the hybrid better-suited to hull defilade positions. On the downside, top speed performance would probably suffer and you end up with a lot of turret for a relatively small vehicle.

Probably a better investment to go with Greg's PT-16 suggestion or perhaps a M-95 Degman-style upgrade for T-72s.

 

[uk 75]

On the whole the answer to the question is that post Cold War there were enough Leopards and T72 whole tanks available so countries just took on surplus whole vehicles from their original owners.
If Leopard and Abrams production ramps up because of Ukraine I cant see any takers for hybrids.

 

[Fluff]

On the whole the answer to the question is that post Cold War there were enough Leopards and T72 whole tanks available so countries just took on surplus whole vehicles from their original owners.
If Leopard and Abrams production ramps up because of Ukraine I cant see any takers for hybrids.

Same reason we don’t see many fords with vw engines. Can be done, but a pita, and logically you then need to build a vw with a ford engine. Net gain zero, or thereabouts.

 

[Christopher Wang]

... is it actually possible to fit the Leopard 2's turret onto the T-72's hull? ...

I don't see why not. The T-72 has a larger turret ring diameter would dictate a spacer of some kind. Compared to the Leopard 2, a T-72 hull may be slightly shallower (with almost half of that depth taken up by the now-redundant ammunition carousel).

I'm getting conflicting figures on the true dimensions of the T-72's turret ring diameter. Some online sources such as Tankograd (https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2015/05/t-72-soviet-progeny.html) state that the T-72's turret ring diameter is 1934mm, while other sources such as Garupan History on Facebook (

https://www.facebook.com/NeedRaifuWaifu/posts/582609057005943

View: https://hi-in.facebook.com/NeedRaifuWaifu/posts/582609057005943/
) claim that it's actually 2162mm. Why are there so many discrepancies on the actual turret ring diameter of the T-72?

 

[Fluff]

... is it actually possible to fit the Leopard 2's turret onto the T-72's hull? ...

I don't see why not. The T-72 has a larger turret ring diameter would dictate a spacer of some kind. Compared to the Leopard 2, a T-72 hull may be slightly shallower (with almost half of that depth taken up by the now-redundant ammunition carousel).

I'm getting conflicting figures on the true dimensions of the T-72's turret ring diameter. Some online sources such as Tankograd (https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2015/05/t-72-soviet-progeny.html) state that the T-72's turret ring diameter is 1934mm, while other sources such as Garupan History on Facebook (

https://www.facebook.com/NeedRaifuWaifu/posts/582609057005943

View: https://hi-in.facebook.com/NeedRaifuWaifu/posts/582609057005943/
) claim that it's actually 2162mm. Why are there so many discrepancies on the actual turret ring diameter of the T-72?

Probably the difference between clear space inside the turret, and the depth of the bearing surface. 200mm or 4 inches, split in 2, so 100mm on each side of the circle, all the way round.

 

[Apophenia]

... Why are there so many discrepancies on the actual turret ring diameter of the T-72?

That 1,934 mm measures the internal diameter opening Other measurements are for external diameter (2,275 mm), bearing race (2,116 mm), etc. Why is there no standardized method of measuring turret rings? No clue ...

 

[Elan Vital]

... Why are there so many discrepancies on the actual turret ring diameter of the T-72?

That 1,934 mm measures the internal diameter opening Other measurements are for external diameter (2,275 mm), bearing race (2,116 mm), etc. Why is there no standardized method of measuring turret rings? No clue ...

There is no standardized anything for military hardware, it's the same way nobody actually states sprocket hp for tanks when it makes a lot more sense than the gross hp value.

 

[Fluff]

... Why are there so many discrepancies on the actual turret ring diameter of the T-72?

That 1,934 mm measures the internal diameter opening Other measurements are for external diameter (2,275 mm), bearing race (2,116 mm), etc. Why is there no standardized method of measuring turret rings? No clue ...

Well the engineers will be wanting the 2 mechanical faces to match up. The human factors guys will be interested in the free space to work with. The transport guys will want the outer dimensions, to make sure it will fit through a railway tunnel.......

 

[Foo Fighter]

On the whole the answer to the question is that post Cold War there were enough Leopards and T72 whole tanks available so countries just took on surplus whole vehicles from their original owners.
If Leopard and Abrams production ramps up because of Ukraine I cant see any takers for hybrids.

Same reason we don’t see many fords with vw engines. Can be done, but a pita, and logically you then need to build a vw with a ford engine. Net gain zero, or thereabouts.

Check out the new small Ford electric cars/crossover whatbnots. They are basically VW minus the badges.

 

[Christopher Wang]

It was actually a Leopard 1 hull with a T-72 hull looked at in Malaysia that I was thinking about. Which makes more sense as it is an increase in firepower.

I think you mean Leopard 1 hull with T-72 turret:

Were there ever any real-life proposals to do the reverse by placing the Leopard 1 turret onto the T-72 hull?

The main challenge would have been the smaller turret ring diameter of the T-72 (1934mm) compared to the Leopard 1 (1980mm). Perhaps the solution would have been using a turret ring adapter or cutting open the T-72's turret ring wider?

 

[Christopher Wang]

So I did some exploring around the blog Tankograd ( https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/ ) and I looked up the page on the T-72's more advanced counterpart, the T-80. According to Tankograd, the T-80 has a larger turret ring diameter of 2162mm. Much of the space is occupied by the autoloader carousel which reduces the internal diameter of the crew compartment. This is shown in the below excerpt snipped from Tankograd, with the sentence underlined in red and the measurement underlined in blue:


SOURCE: https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2016/02/t-80-gambol.html

Assuming that Tankograd is correct about the T-80's larger turret ring diameter, perhaps it would have been easier to combine the Leopard 2 turret with the hull of the T-80 instead of the T-72?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Why are you so invested in this idea @Christopher Wang? Do you own a large stockpile of Leopard 2 turrets you want to get rid of or something?

 

[jkla]

I strongly suggest you reconsider. Even if you manage to make the driver able to exit the vehicle through his own hatch, the T-72/90 hull has far less storage space, deeply inferior automotive components, and with the Leo2 turret's added weight, the already inferior track and suspension maintenance intervals will further degrade. This is not even getting into tactical mobility; ground pressure, acceleration, etc....