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Giraffe tanks

Avimimus

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(From http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2420954#Post2420954) :

Ssnake said:
Elevatable sensor/weapon masts
Pretty nifty, hey? One question beckons for me though... why wasn't this thought of before? It really is quite a simple thing and it just makes so much sense.
  • It's definitely not a new idea. Germany in the 1970s had prototypes of the "Giraffe" tank destroyer with a 20m elevatable mast to fire anti tank missiles over and across forests. Ultimately the concept was abandoned for a variety of reasons - stability of the platform while guiding a missile (if it's long and thin, chances are it'll sway from firing the missle as well as from gusts of wind), the time required to set up and abandon a firing position (are you fast enough to evade the artillery fire?), and ultimately the overall negative cost/benefit ratio.
  • Better computers may compensate for some of these issues that were a serious impediment a few decades ago.

Does anyone have more information? I thought I was the only one who ever thought of this outlandish idea but apparently there is some thought that it may come back...
 

sferrin

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I just happened to buy a pile of magazines off ebay last week and there's a picture of a "giraffe" antitank missile launcher and a "giraffe" short range anti-air laser concept. I'll post pics. . . eventually. (Going to upgrade the computer tomorrow so it may be the end of the week before I get around to scanning all the interesting stuff in.)
 

GTX

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I think what you were after is the Wegmann Panther - see here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,715.0/highlight,panther.html

Regards,

Greg
 

JohnR

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What about the Praying Mantis of WWII. Based on a Bren Gun Carrier, and intended to fire over hedge rows etc.

Not sure if this link will work.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/GreatBritain/GB-PrayingMantis-HomeGuard.jpg

Regards
 

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Giraffe ATGW platforms thing for the 80's - here are German and Uk concepts
 

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Apophenia

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Another Leopard-based 'Giraffe' was Oerlikon's elevated ADATS.

http://62.128.210.96/tanks-lima/lima/leopard1_series/adatleo/adatleo-intro.html
 

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Michel Van

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OK let face it
that Patent is most unusable Tank concept i ever saw

it to Small (turn it will difficult)

elevated MG is a easy target for Anti Tank weapon
you know like those Soviet anti tank rifle PTRD-41

the Tankdriver is dead meat...
 

robunos

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Avimimus said:
(From http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2420954#Post2420954) :

Ssnake said:
Elevatable sensor/weapon masts
Pretty nifty, hey? One question beckons for me though... why wasn't this thought of before? It really is quite a simple thing and it just makes so much sense.
  • It's definitely not a new idea. Germany in the 1970s had prototypes of the "Giraffe" tank destroyer with a 20m elevatable mast to fire anti tank missiles over and across forests. Ultimately the concept was abandoned for a variety of reasons - stability of the platform while guiding a missile (if it's long and thin, chances are it'll sway from firing the missle as well as from gusts of wind), the time required to set up and abandon a firing position (are you fast enough to evade the artillery fire?), and ultimately the overall negative cost/benefit ratio.
  • Better computers may compensate for some of these issues that were a serious impediment a few decades ago.

Does anyone have more information? I thought I was the only one who ever thought of this outlandish idea but apparently there is some thought that it may come back...

these days, couldn't you achieve the same effect,(up and over), with vertical launch missiles, and remote targeting via RPV,( like the drone proposed for the US FCS),?

cheers,
Robin.
 

Przezdzieblo

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Also, check Yugoslavian Kobra, based on M-84 tank chassis:
http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-mike/mike-number-su/m-84_series/kobra/kobra-intro.html
 

GTX

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It's still a popular concept - see this Czech Recon vehicle exhibited at last year's DSEi expo in London (sorry for the blurry picture - it was taken with a phone):



Regards,

Greg
 

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Don't know where, it was some years ago, that I saw an artists drawing of
a tracked vehicle with a small cable guided hover platform. AFAIK it was meant
mainly for reconnaissance, but I remember, that the possibility of carrying weapons
like missiles was mentioned. This methode would alleviate some problems, like
stability and maybe even moving around with the platform in use,I think.
 

amsci99

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Recall seeing a version of the Giraffe Tank with laser based weapon in an 87 issue of International Combat Arms.
 

sferrin

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Here's the laser one. An MBB/Diehl project from the late 80's. They were hoping to get it working by the mid 90's.
 

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Michel Van

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Justo Miranda said:
Hi,
Look at this Giraffe ancestor

no joke
the german Bundeswehr (Army) had in 1950s same Idea
but during the project they seem that was to
much Bullseye (shooting competition) for sovjet troops.

source
Prototypen und Sonderfahrzeuge der Bundeswehr seit 1956
ISBN 978-3-613-02382-6
Prototypen und Sonderfahrzeuge der Bundeswehr seit 1956 band 2
ISBN 978-3-613-02590-5
in German language by Karl Anweiler (Motorbuch verlag)

those 2 books show prototype of Bundeswehr since 1956
include Grafic and Picture of them
 

Avimimus

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Check out the observation tower on this Leopard 3 model:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,712.0.html
 

flateric

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sferrin said:
I just happened to buy a pile of magazines off ebay last week and there's a picture of a "giraffe" antitank missile launcher and a "giraffe" short range anti-air laser concept. I'll post pics. . . eventually. (Going to upgrade the computer tomorrow so it may be the end of the week before I get around to scanning all the interesting stuff in.)

well, almost an year after))))
 

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sferrin

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flateric said:
sferrin said:
I just happened to buy a pile of magazines off ebay last week and there's a picture of a "giraffe" antitank missile launcher and a "giraffe" short range anti-air laser concept. I'll post pics. . . eventually. (Going to upgrade the computer tomorrow so it may be the end of the week before I get around to scanning all the interesting stuff in.)

well, almost an year after))))

See the post three up from yours. ;)
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

Another picture of a Leopard 2 Helex laser model.
http://books.google.com/
Minispione Schaltungstechnik by Günter Wahl
Page 168 or search Panzer mit Laserkanone

Here another illustration of the Helex laser.
www.ovnis-armee.org/11_technologie_plasmas.htm

Here a ad for the Helex from MBB
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1986/1986%20-%202215.html
Many greetings
 

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dan_inbox

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A modern version, the IDF's Magach Tagash Akrav (scorpion) observation platform produced on a M60 AVLB chassis for use around the anti-terrrorist-infiltration wall.



Must not be so successful, since only one was built.
 

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dan_inbox said:
Must not be so successful, since only one was built.

Not necessarily. A lot of Israeli procurement programs have been put on ice for the moment due to a 'perfect storm' of funding constraints and the need to divert resources to unexpected items such as additional Arrow batteries.
 

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That picture is the better part of ten years old, so if they didn't build any follow on's its pretty safe to say its dead. I can't see any reason WHY you'd want it either. It already has a RWS on the top, for less money you could put the RWS and a few extra cameras on a much smaller mast and not have a person exposed to RPG fire with no place to go to the bathroom. It doesn't even look like the guy inside can readily access the RWS to clear jams or reload it either. The Israelis have fielded several different designs of armored observation vehicles over the years on Sherman and Centurion but the newer ones just have a slim mast with a camera. As I recall the Sherman one had an actual open platform.
 

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Looks more like a proof-of-concept than an actual operational system. The unarmoured cab and chassis tells against its utility in combat.
 

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Plenty of light missile systems are unarmored in operational service. Stinger Avenger and Hummve/jeep TOW vehicles in the US Army for a long time for example.
 

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Stinger Avenger isn't meant to be engaging armoured vehicles directly while the TOW/HMMWV relies on concealment. Both are vulnerable to artillery bursts, just as this Chinese vehicle is. On the modern battlefield if you're not armoured, you won't last long.
 

xiaofan

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Kadija_Man said:
Looks more like a proof-of-concept than an actual operational system. The unarmoured cab and chassis tells against its utility in combat.

Kadija_Man said:
Stinger Avenger isn't meant to be engaging armoured vehicles directly while the TOW/HMMWV relies on concealment. Both are vulnerable to artillery bursts, just as this Chinese vehicle is. On the modern battlefield if you're not armoured, you won't last long.

For Chinese Army it is a proof-of-concept, sine PLA has HJ-8/9 mounted on both unarmoured and armoured chassis, and Chinese attack helicopter start become operational, there no point for PLA to buy this system.
 

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Those missiles aren't HJ-8 or HJ-9. Some sort of counterpart to TRIGAT LR I'd say. Perhaps the overall system is meant to be somewhat of an ADATS analogue, effective against helicopters and most tanks? Or a testbed for same.

EDIT: Or perhaps I should have said Panther analogue instead (mentioned earlier in the thread).
 

xiaofan

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Grey Havoc said:
Those missiles aren't HJ-8 or HJ-9. Some sort of counterpart to TRIGAT LR I'd say. Perhaps the overall system is meant to be somewhat of an ADATS analogue, effective against helicopters and most tanks? Or a testbed for same.

EDIT: Or perhaps I should have said Panther analogue instead (mentioned earlier in the thread).

As far as I know the system is a anti tank system, and the missiles for the system is new KD-10, or some time we cell it HJ-10.

Intersting enough HJ-10 testbed use similar idea.

As for against helicopters Chinese come up this.
 

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Grey Havoc

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Interesting. Assuming that it is a testbed for a system similar in concept to the Panther, are/were they intending to use, say the Type 96 chassis for the actual system, do you suppose?
 
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Grey Havoc said:
Interesting. Assuming that it is a testbed for a system similar in concept to the Panther, are/were they intending to use, say the Type 96 chassis for the actual system, do you suppose?
The Type 96 would be a reasonable, if high cost option. Lower priced options are the ZBD04 or the new general purpose chassis that looks like a development of the Type 89 APC for tracked vehicles, or, for wheeled vehicles the new VN-1 series (ZBD09) or even the Saanxi HEMTT equivalent.
 

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Kadija_Man said:
Stinger Avenger isn't meant to be engaging armoured vehicles directly while the TOW/HMMWV relies on concealment. Both are vulnerable to artillery bursts, just as this Chinese vehicle is. On the modern battlefield if you're not armoured, you won't last long.


What do you think the mast is for if not concealment at long ranges? You come under modern artillery fire and even an optimistic inch of light armor will make little difference when a shaped charge bomblet lands on the roof. A service model might add an armored cab sure, which would not be a major modification given US Army armored cab projects, but you have little hope of armoring the mast to any useful degree.
 

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Sea Skimmer said:
Kadija_Man said:
Stinger Avenger isn't meant to be engaging armoured vehicles directly while the TOW/HMMWV relies on concealment. Both are vulnerable to artillery bursts, just as this Chinese vehicle is. On the modern battlefield if you're not armoured, you won't last long.


What do you think the mast is for if not concealment at long ranges? You come under modern artillery fire and even an optimistic inch of light armor will make little difference when a shaped charge bomblet lands on the roof. A service model might add an armored cab sure, which would not be a major modification given US Army armored cab projects, but you have little hope of armoring the mast to any useful degree.

The mast is for concealment but unless it and the vehicle under it are armoured, they won't survive even a normal HE round, let alone a specialised AT cluster round (which, I believe are banned in many, perhaps most countries). This is, as has been pointed out, largely a dead end, helicopters instead being preferred. I suspect outside of nations that are either very hilly and/or also well forested or heavily urbanised, such a vehicle is of little value, being too specialised.
 

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