German VTOL saucer 1944 ?

[Justo Miranda]

- On July 15, 1944, the Luftwaffe Technisches Amt issued the Jägernotprogramm specification, calling for an air superiority fighter powered by a 1,300 kp thrust HeS 011 A-0 turbojet, at a time when the British turbojets already generated over 2,000 kp.

In November, some ground tests carried out with the Messerschmitt Me 262 W.Nr.130015, showed that the internal drag in the air ducts reduced the turbojet thrust by 45 kp for each meter in long.

The German designers were forced to imagine new aerodynamic solutions to reduce the drag coefficient in the air ducts. Twin booms and tailless configurations with short fuselage avoided the loss of thrust associated with the long tail pipe, and the long air duct used with nose air intakes was avoided by the installation of two lateral intakes with short S-shaped ducts. Unfortunately for the Germans, with this configuration the air scoops were placed in the air turbulent zone generated over the wing upper surface by the Coanda Effect, and the loss of performance was estimated between 4 per cent and 14 per cent.

To reduce the drag coefficient at high speeds the designers of the Messerschmitt P.1110 fighter employed two boundary layer suction inlets placed ahead of the lateral air scoops. The turbulent air was sucked by means of a special extractor fan.

The Germans were extremely interested in the research by Henri M. Coanda, the Romanian aeronautical engineer that discovered the Coanda Effect in 1934 and designed the Aerodina Lenticulara flying saucer in 1935. On February 15 and September 27, 1938 Coanda received two French patents about airflow acceleration over the periphery of a concave disc. On May 9, 1939 Coanda patented a new propelling device to increase the wings lift.

During the German occupation of Paris, Coanda was forced to design a 20 m of diameter aerodyne powered by twelve Jumo 004 jet engines mounted in a radial pattern with the exhaust pipes directed towards the external ring, where the Coanda Effect produced six tons of lifting power per square yard. The air sucked through sixty slots (Lüftungs) installed around the cockpit crating a lifting power derived from vacuum effect on the disc upper surface. The air passed a toroidal plenum chamber (Zentraltur-Binenanlage) from where it was sucked by the turbojets and expelled towards the thick peripheral ring. Control was achieved by differential acceleration of the engines.

In 1937, a number of scientists and engineers from the AVA-Göttingen research center started experiments with suction inlets installed in the wing of a Junkers AT. 1 light plane. During the flight tests program an efficiency of 22 per cent was obtained with a 20 hp suction device. In 1940 was achieved a lift coefficient of 5 using a 45 hp suction fan mounted in the engine of a Fieseler Storch AT.2.

Between 1941 and 1943 the Messerschmitt Bf 109 V-24 prototype was fitted with blown flaps to improve low-speed handling. By 1944 some tests were conducted at Daimler-Benz/Stuttgart with one Bf 109 G-6 fitted with a Caudron built aile soufflé and one 9,000 rpm suction-fan blower system built by AVA. But the suction at high transonic speed required a considerable amount of power.

In February 1940, the tailless jet fighter project Lippisch P 01-112 was fitted with a suction device powered by one Bramo/BMW 3302 turbojet. In April 1943, the Arado design team proposed to use the Ar 232 A-05 prototype as flying laboratory fitted with a suction boundary layer control system powered by a cold rocket Walter HWK RI-203.

All these suction devices involved cutting slots (Lüftungs) into an aircraft’s wings, but the first attempts to use multiple slots to increase the suction rate did not achieve satisfactory results. The problem of more efficient suction led the German engineers to new research into porous surfaces with small holes.

At the end of 1944, the German foamed-metallurgy conducted experiments with porous Aluminum/Iron/Bronze alloys using the superplastic-deformation/diffusion-bonding technology. The new porous material, named Luftschwamm by the Göttingen scientist, would allow to eliminate the air scoops of the transonic fighters by delaying 1/10 Mach the apparition of compressibility shockwaves. But the work was discontinued without explanation in 1945.

The mystery was finally solved in April 1963 during the Mach 0.77 tests flights performed by the Northrop X-21A, an experimental prototype fitted with a porous breathing wing with thousands of tiny slots with 0.0035- inch width. The results were doubtful practically, because the obstructions of the slots by insects, dust, rain, and other environmental anomalies.

 

[Justo Miranda]

- In April 1941 Andreas Epp, an Unterofficier of the KG 26 Bomber Group based at Norway-Stavanger, built one flying disc model with 60 cm of diameter. Thanks to the help of the Luftwaffe Director-General of Equipment Ernst Udet, Epp was able to give the model and their construction plans to the RLM.

In 1946, Epp constructed the Helioplane, another airworthy model with coaxial rotor, and in 1954 he designed an aerodyne that used six ducted fans for lift and two turbojets for propulsion. In March of 1955 he designed the Delta aircraft project for Warnow Werft-Warnemünde in East Germany.

On April 22, 1956 he patented the Flugscheibe Omega-Diskus gyrocopter and in 1958 he built a 1/10 scale model with 190 cm of diameter.

The main rotor of Omega-Diskus was designed to rotate freely and no torque was transmitted to the airframe. The rotation was started by means of two small bipropellant rockets (Aniass-Raketen) Walter 109-509 B-0 with 350 kp thrust each. Once rotational speed was sufficient, the two huge Pabst ramjets were started, and lift-off was achieved. The eight auxiliary engines could be throttled changing the plane of the main rotor in the desired direction.

The project was offered to the USAAF but nothing more is known.

Omega-Diskus technical data

Rotor diameter: 22 m (72 ft.), disc diameter: 19 m (62 ft), cockpit diameter: 4 m (13 ft), ducted fans conical diameter. 3 to 1.8 m (9.8 to 5.9 ft), height: 6 m (19.7 ft), estimated weight: 28,000 kg (62,000 lb.), estimated ceiling: 12,000 m (39,360 ft), crew: 10, engines: two Pabst ramjets with 2,500 kp thrust and eight 80 hp Argus As 8A radial engines driving four bladed propellers.

 

[Michel Van]

What ever the the 'Bell' was, it story was told by a man with no technical knowledge, trying to talk his way out from a Execution...

 

[publiusr]

Of interest to me at astronautix.com is the “ Bono Saucer.” This was a huge HLLV concept.

Now the drawing is highly notional and probably done along with the TSTO Spaceplanes to show how small ROOST was in comparison…and yet…I wonder if there are more drawings. It might have allowed very wide payloads.

A recent news blurb I saw from macleans.ca had an interview about how recently declassified submarine steel alloys are now available to Nuytten’s company Nuytco, the maker of Exosuit 2000–a replacement for the deep diving Jim suit.

This and fly-by-wire tech may allow a return to wide lenticular designs, which have a lower heating upon re-entry according to Alan Kehlet.

 

[Justo Miranda]

- In 1942 the Austrian engineer Friedrich von Dobhloff, of Wiener Neustädter Flugzeugwerke, started the development of the jet-propelled gyrocopter WNF 342 with two-bladed tip-driven rotor. The propulsion elements were two combustion chambers made of a chromium-nickel-steel alloy, where they burned B4 fuel mixed with compressed-air at 2,000 degrees C, at a stoichiometric fuel/air ratio of 1:20.

For horizontal flight propulsion, the WNF 342 used a conventional piston engine that also powered an Argus As 411 supercharger, sending 0.7 kg of compressed air to the combustion chambers every second.

Vertical control was achieved by varying the rotor speed, but the system had problems of ground-resonance vibration caused by the rotor blades.



During the flight tests carried out in 1943, it was found that the compressed-air system limited the thrust and by early 1945 it was decided to replace the combustion chambers with rotor mounted ramjets.



After being examined by engineers of General Electric Corp. in September 1946, the basic design of the WNF 342 was used in several models of North American gyrocopters during the 1950s.



The new propulsion system exhibited powerful lifting capacity. In 1953 the Bensen Midget could lift four times its weight and the Hughes XH-17 flew with a gross weight of 23 tons.



This quality would have been particularly useful for the air defense of the Reich during the last year of war in Europe.



American bombers flew together in self-defensive formations running the risk that one of the bombers would destroy all the planes in the 'box', which happened rarely when the bomb bay was hit by one of the millions of shells fired by the Flak. The Germans called this situation Pulkzerstörer but lacked a weapon strong enough to achieve this effect regularly.



None of the 55,000 anti-aircraft cannons used by the Flakartillerie could launch the 2,000 kg of high explosive needed for the destruction of a 'box'. The 88-mm Flak 41 fired shells of only 9.4 kg, the Flak 39 of 105 mm 15.1 kg and the Flak 40 of 128 mm 26 kg, out of which only 10 per cent were HE.



The warhead of a Wasserfall ground-to-air missile weighted 235 kg only and that of an Enzian weighted 300 kg.



At the end of 1944, the suicide bombers Focke-Wulf Ta 154 A-0/U2, Gotha P.55 and Messerschmitt Me 328 SO were designed. They could carry out Pulkzerstörer missions loaded with 2,000 kg of H.E. Amatol.



In the May/April 1975 issue, the German magazine Luftfahrt International published the drawing of an unknown gyrocopter, named Flakmine V7, with a circular body and an eight-blade rotor propelled by four ramjets, which looked like a machine designed to lift-off a great charge of explosives.

The movement of the ramjets and the high temperature of the exhaust gases in this type of gyrocopters used to ionize the air causing corona discharges and induced current effects. This ‘evanescent field’ electromagnetic phenomenon, called Feuerball Effekt by the Germans, could affect the operation of electronic equipment.

It is possible that this propulsion system would have inspired Focke-Wulf designers during the planning of their second senkrechtstarter jagdflugzeug project. In the summer of 1944, Dipl.-Ing. Flugbaumeister Heinz von Halem and designer Ludwig Mittelhüber designed a gyrocopter with a two-bladed rotor spinning freely that were propelled by tip-ramjets, a system called the Triebflügel (thrust-wing).



The Triebflügeljäger used three Pabst ramjets, 70 cm in diameter and 140 cm long, entirely built of steel. Each had 35 injectors and a thrust of 840 kp, with operating speed between 300 kph and 0.9 Mach and 18,000 m estimated ceiling. The specific fuel consumption rate varied with the speed of rotation and the type of fuel used. With hydrogen, it was 1.47 at 0.8 Mach and 900 degrees C, with crude oil (superheated and vaporized to achieve rapid mixing with the incoming air) was increased by about 3 per cent.



Ramjets would run on any combustible medium which could be vaporized, passing through the heat exchanger designed by Otto Pabst. It consisted of a tiny ramjet that worked with petrol 133/5000, consuming only a 2 per cent of that of the main engine, and could process substances that were as little volatile as lignite tar and pitch oil. The high fuel consumption, compared to piston or turbojets engines, was caused by the subsonic speed at the rotor tips.



The low compression ratio of the air intakes generated inefficient combustion, high noise, poor range, high night-time visibility Feuerball Effekt, corona discharges and induced current effects.

 

[riggerrob]

- In 1942 the Austrian engineer Friedrich von Dobhloff, of Wiener Neustädter Flugzeugwerke, started the development of the jet-propelled gyrocopter WNF 342 with two-bladed tip-driven rotor. The propulsion elements were two combustion chambers made of a chromium-nickel-steel alloy, where they burned B4 fuel mixed with compressed-air at 2,000 degrees C, at a stoichiometric fuel/air ratio of 1:20.

For horizontal flight propulsion, the WNF 342 used a conventional piston engine that also powered an Argus As 411 supercharger, sending 0.7 kg of compressed air to the combustion chambers every second.

Vertical control was achieved by varying the rotor speed, but the system had problems of ground-resonance vibration caused by the rotor blades.



During the flight tests carried out in 1943, it was found that the compressed-air system limited the thrust and by early 1945 it was decided to replace the combustion chambers with rotor mounted ramjets.



After being examined by engineers of General Electric Corp. in September 1946, the basic design of the WNF 342 was used in several models of North American gyrocopters during the 1950s.



The new propulsion system exhibited powerful lifting capacity. In 1953 the Bensen Midget could lift four times its weight and the Hughes XH-17 flew with a gross weight of 23 tons.



This quality would have been particularly useful for the air defense of the Reich during the last year of war in Europe.



American bombers flew together in self-defensive formations running the risk that one of the bombers would destroy all the planes in the 'box', which happened rarely when the bomb bay was hit by one of the millions of shells fired by the Flak. The Germans called this situation Pulkzerstörer but lacked a weapon strong enough to achieve this effect regularly.



None of the 55,000 anti-aircraft cannons used by the Flakartillerie could launch the 2,000 kg of high explosive needed for the destruction of a 'box'. The 88-mm Flak 41 fired shells of only 9.4 kg, the Flak 39 of 105 mm 15.1 kg and the Flak 40 of 128 mm 26 kg, out of which only 10 per cent were HE.



The warhead of a Wasserfall ground-to-air missile weighted 235 kg only and that of an Enzian weighted 300 kg.



At the end of 1944, the suicide bombers Focke-Wulf Ta 154 A-0/U2, Gotha P.55 and Messerschmitt Me 328 SO were designed. They could carry out Pulkzerstörer missions loaded with 2,000 kg of H.E. Amatol.



In the May/April 1975 issue, the German magazine Luftfahrt International published the drawing of an unknown gyrocopter, named Flakmine V7, with a circular body and an eight-blade rotor propelled by four ramjets, which looked like a machine designed to lift-off a great charge of explosives.

The movement of the ramjets and the high temperature of the exhaust gases in this type of gyrocopters used to ionize the air causing corona discharges and induced current effects. This ‘evanescent field’ electromagnetic phenomenon, called Feuerball Effekt by the Germans, could affect the operation of electronic equipment.

It is possible that this propulsion system would have inspired Focke-Wulf designers during the planning of their second senkrechtstarter jagdflugzeug project. In the summer of 1944, Dipl.-Ing. Flugbaumeister Heinz von Halem and designer Ludwig Mittelhüber designed a gyrocopter with a two-bladed rotor spinning freely that were propelled by tip-ramjets, a system called the Triebflügel (thrust-wing).



The Triebflügeljäger used three Pabst ramjets, 70 cm in diameter and 140 cm long, entirely built of steel. Each had 35 injectors and a thrust of 840 kp, with operating speed between 300 kph and 0.9 Mach and 18,000 m estimated ceiling. The specific fuel consumption rate varied with the speed of rotation and the type of fuel used. With hydrogen, it was 1.47 at 0.8 Mach and 900 degrees C, with crude oil (superheated and vaporized to achieve rapid mixing with the incoming air) was increased by about 3 per cent.



Ramjets would run on any combustible medium which could be vaporized, passing through the heat exchanger designed by Otto Pabst. It consisted of a tiny ramjet that worked with petrol 133/5000, consuming only a 2 per cent of that of the main engine, and could process substances that were as little volatile as lignite tar and pitch oil. The high fuel consumption, compared to piston or turbojets engines, was caused by the subsonic speed at the rotor tips.



The low compression ratio of the air intakes generated inefficient combustion, high noise, poor range, high night-time visibility Feuerball Effekt, corona discharges and induced current effects.

That reminds me of a ground run at Oshkosh 1993. At a warbird BBQ, some one test ran a restored Hiller YH-32 Hornet, ram-jet powered helicopter. The second ram jet refused to light, but it still created massive amounts of noise and light! Most entertaining ... even if it did not take-off.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

For comparison, the USN was testing the V-173 "Flying Pancake" so any German aircraft of similar configuration would almost certainly not have come as a complete surprise or been unidentifiable.



In most ways, Voight went further than any German manufacturer in developing such an aircraft given that this evolved into the XF5U

 

[Jemiba]

The discussion about an alleged German atom bomb was moved and merged with an older thread, to be found here
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/german-wwii-atomic-bombs.3247/

 

[Justo Miranda]

To simplify the matter... the Americans spent huge sums of money on the Manhattan Project, the Germans spent their last resources on developing the ICBM and lacked the uranium, the will, the faith in the quantum world and the industrial capacity to build the bomb, the Soviets only had spies and political sympathizers in the universities, but they used them well and in the end managed to benefit from all the foreign technical effort in order to prevent the recovery of the world economy after WWII.

The Cold War cost trillions of dollars... Not at all.

If you give a gun to a policeman in a small town he will do his best to retire without having used it, if you give it to a fan he will try to change the world.

 

[Justo Miranda]

American Flying Saucers

​

Between 1932 and 1935 the NACA-Langley aerodynamicist Charles H. Zimmerman wind-tunnel tested low aspect ratio wings (with semicircular wingtips and Clark Y airfoils) searching a solution to the Air Flivver problem of stall/spin accidents.

The development of a controlled vortex flow allows the low aspect ratio wing to avoid stalling at exceedingly high angle-of-attack and low speed. Zimmerman progressively reduced the center section in the wing of some scale models until it reached zero, with the wingtips forming a circular planform wing.

Their NACA report nº 539: Aerodynamic Characteristics of Several Airfoils of Low Aspect Ratio (1935) became the basis for the V-173 Zimmer Skimmer design of 1939, with U.S. Navy financing and Chance Vought Aircraft Division-Stratford workmanship.

The prototype Bu Aer no. 02978 was constructed with wood framework, plywood/fabric covering and powered by two 80 hp. Continental C-75 engines driving 16 foot 6 in three-bladed, variable pitch propellers, rotating in the opposite direction. These large propellers demanded a long fixed landing gear gave the V-173 a 22.15 degrees nose-high ground angle. Most of the airframe was the wing, which had an aspect ratio of 1.275, with semi-elliptical leading edge and trailing edge joined at a straight quarter-chord line.

The plane was test flown at Stratford on November 23, 1942 performing a take-off run of only 200 ft. at 29 mph, controlled flight at a 45 degrees angle-of-attack and landing in 20 ft. and 15 mph. The propellers were fitted in the wingtips, retaining the high-pressure air below the wing, actively cancelling the drag tip vortex, and providing uniform airflow over the entire wing, for exceptional ‘parachute lift’ effect.

Engine power was delivered to the propellers via a complex set of shafts with right angle gear drives, and a power cross shaft with over-running clutches, that ran behind the cockpit, connecting the engines gearboxes to ensure both propellers turned in a single engine scenario.

Each horizontal stabilizer acted as both aileron and elevator (ailevator).

Originally the pilot was lying in prone position, to promote streamlining, with glazed panels in the lower leading edge but this was changed to an upright seat because of his marginal comfort.

Chance Vought V-173 technical data

Wingspan: 23 ft. 4 in. (7.11 m), ailevators span: 34 ft. 9 in. (10.6 m), length: 26 ft. 8 in. (8.13 m), height: 12 ft. 11 in. (3.94 m), wing area: 427 sq. ft (39.67 sq. m) max weight: 3,050 lb., max speed: 138 mph, power plant: two 80 hp Continental C-75 fan-cooled engines driving three-bladed airscrews via extension shaft.

By the end of 1941, the U.S. Navy had just entered a war in which the German and Japanese bombers had demonstrated great efficiency in destroying all kinds of Allied ships. It was necessary to protect the few warships that had survived the Pearl Harbor disaster against airstrikes, but the Pacific Fleet only had three aircraft carriers and the MAC ships were too slow to be used in combat operations.

The battleships and battlecruisers used to transport small reconnaissance floatplanes Curtiss SOC-3 and Vought OS2U-1 that were launched from steam catapults and could be recovered after each mission, but a fighter fitted with floats would have been an easy prey for the Mitsubishi Zero-Sen.

The U.S. Navy needed an air-superiority fighter with extreme short-take-off-and-landing (STOL) capabilities, slow-flight performance, and hovering ability, able to operate from the rear decks of the warships, but this airplane did not exist until the BAE Sea Harrier entered service in April 1980.

On January 19, 1942 Vought-Sikorsky submitted to the U.S. Navy the VS-315 proposal for a 425 mph STOL fighter. In February, the Navy requested a 1/3 scale wind-tunnel model, the VS-315 receiving the official designation XF5U-1 on September 10, 1942 and the wooden mock-up VS-313 was finished in June 1943.

The projected naval fighter had a lightweight aluminum structure with Metalite/ balsa/aluminum sandwich skin, 20 times as much power that the V-173 and increased top speed/landing speed ratio from a typical 4:1 to 10:1. Using two Pratt & Whitney R-2800-7 radial engines, rated at 1,350 hp. each, was expected a landing speed of 40 mph, a top speed of 425 mph. and a zero-roll take-off with a 25-knot headwind.

Powered by two 1,600 hp. P&W R-2000-2(D) turbo-supercharged engines with water injection, it was expected to reach 20 to 460 mph and 0 to 550 mph using two General Electric T31-GE-3 turboprops with 2,300 shp+600 lbf residual thrust and greater power-to-weight ratio. The proposed turbine-powered model was designated VS-341. With sufficient power, both rotors could generate more lift than weight for vertical take-off and landing operation, just keeping up with the warship forward speed. Powered by two turboprops, the airplane would hover motionless hanging under its rotors like a helicopter.

On July 15, 1944, the Navy signed a contract for two prototypes: one for static testing (Bu Aer nº 33959) and one (Bu Aer nº 33958) for flight evaluation. The XF5U-1 was completed on June 25, 1945 with retractable landing gear, catapult bridle hooks and arresting hook for carrier operation. Their R-2000-7 engines were buried into the wing, two circular air intakes with cooling fans were placed in the wing leading edge and four air exit flaps were opened on both upper and lower wing surfaces.

A pair of Hamilton Standard Hydromatic propellers from two F4U-4 Corsair fighters were installed, but the vibration tests performed on June 29, 1945 showed excessive mechanical vibration between the engine-propeller shafting, gear boxes, and airframe structure.

It was necessary to develop a new type of propellers, with articulated blades, like those used on helicopters. Each rotor consisted of two pair of wooden blades, one mounted ahead the other, that could flap fore and aft to alleviate the vibration at a high angle-of-attack, but the articulated rotors were not available until 1947.

The airplane was taxi tested on February 3, 1947 at Stratford, Connecticut, but, again, showed destructive cyclic forces and heavy loads that had not been acceptable with conventional rigid airscrews. Full flight tests were scheduled for December 1948 at Edwards AFB, but the development of the two-speed gearboxes delayed the program and the U.S. Navy suddenly cancelled the contract on March 17, 1947, with orders to destroy the prototype.

Chance Vought XF5U-1 technical data

Ailevators span: 32.5 ft. (9.9 m), width at the prop tips: 36.3 ft. (11.06 m), length: 28.6 ft. (8.7 m), height: 14.8 ft. (4.5 m), wing area: 475 sq. ft (42.7 sq. m) max weight: 18,917 lb. (8,569 kg), estimated max speed: 504 mph (811 kph), estimated range: 910 miles (1,464 km), estimated initial climb rate: 3,950 ft/min (1,204 m/min), estimated service ceiling: 32,000 ft. (9,756 m), estimated take-off run: 710 ft (216 m), nose-high ground angle: 18.7 degrees, proposed armament: six 0.50 cal Colt-Browning heavy machine guns of four 20 mm cannons.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The Dark Side​

The official explanation of the Navy was that they could already operate jet fighters from its 98 aircraft carriers. But the irrational decision to destroy all traces of the XF5U is only comparable to the destruction of all Northrop's flying wings produced and, in both cases, there were powerful political reasons.

Year 1947 was incredibly special. Just five days before the cancellation of the program, the Truman Doctrine to contain the Soviet expansion was announced to Congress by President Harry S. Truman.

The Cold War had started.

In May 22, the President signed an Act of Congress that implement the Truman Doctrine.

On June 4, the first Mogul balloon was launched, five days later the U.S. attaché in Moscow informed the War Department that the Soviets had begun the serial construction of the Horten Ho VIII flying wing bomber.

In June 26, the U.S. newspapers first began using the term flying saucer.

The Roswell incident occurred on July 8.

In July 26, the President signed the National Security Act (NSA 47) creating the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the National Security Council (NSC).

The first North American F-86 swept wing fighter was flown on October 1, thirteen days later the Bell X-1 experimental rocket plane flew faster than the speed of sound, but it was a record that was kept secret.

In December 30, the Soviet swept wing fighter MiG-15 makes its first flight.

During the invasion of Japan ‘Operation Olympic’, planned for May 1946, the Allies expected to suffer a high number of causalities caused by the suicide jet bombers of second generation Kawanishi Baika (740 kph-460 mph) and Kugisho Ohka 43 (596 kph-370 mph).

The U.S. Navy needed fast interceptors to protect the invasion fleet, but the high fuel consumption, low power at take-off and poor reliability of early jet engines did not make them attractive for use in carrier-borne planes.

On May 28, 1945, the Navy approved a production contract for 100 North American FJ-1 Fury jet fighters. The XFJ-1 prototype was flown on September 11, 1946 powered by one General Electric GE-2 (TG-180) axial flow turbojet rated at 1,730 kgp (3,820 lbf) thrust. The first production FJ-1, with 4,000 lbf Allison J-35 axial flow turbojet, was delivered in October 1947 but only 30 airplanes were built.

On March 10, 1948 one FJ-1 made the first carrier landing in the U.S.S Boxer (CV-21). Five months later the Fury entered service with the VF-5A (VF-51) naval squadron for a jet familiarization program. In May 1949, the VF-51 started an operational training trip aboard the U.S.S. Princeton (CV-37), the results were not good, one of the aircraft was destroyed and the rest were damaged.

The disastrous evaluation led to a quick retirement from active service by July 1949. The Essex-class carrier deck was 862 feet long and the Fury had a take-off run of 840 ft.

The U.S. Navy concluded that slower acceleration by jets during the take-off was not recommended and catapult departures became standard practice.

Vought also offered its VS-340 model in the fall 1944 competition; the design proposal was accepted, and the Navy ordered three prototypes under the denomination XF6U-1 Pirate. The first prototype was flown on October 2, 1946, underpowered by one Westinghouse 24C axial turbojet with 3,000 lbf static thrust, and 30 production aircraft were ordered in February 1947.

The development was slow, the first production airplane was flown on July 29, 1949 powered by one J 34-WE-30 axial turbojet, rated at 4,224 lbf, with afterburner and excessive fuel consumption rate. The Pirate was not feasible for combat because its low performance and its 0.3:1 thrust-to-weight ratio made it entirely inadequate for carrier operation.

The introduction to squadron service of the McDonnell FH-1 Phantom on August 11, 1947 could have solved the problem. The FH-1 was a very safe airplane, powered by two J 34-WE-30 turbojets, with 370 ft take-off run and 360 ft took-off run. The Phantom could fly at low speed for carrier operation but had a top speed of 485 mph only, against the 647 mph of the MiG-15 Soviet fighter. All the 62 airplanes produced were taken out of service in 1949.

The Soviet Union started the first major crisis of the Cold War with the Berlin Blockade on June 24, 1948.

Confronted with the Chinese revolution, the 1948 presidential election and the end of American atomic monopoly in 1949, the Truman administration moved to escalate its containment doctrine and quadrupled its spending on defense.

On July 29, 1948, the President approved construction of five supercarriers, with 68,250-ton displacement and 1,090 ft (330 m) length, able to carry a group of large nuclear bombers, the most effective weapon of the day, and a new type of swept wing fighters of the F-86 class.

The construction of the USS United States (CVA-58) started on April 19, 1949 with an estimated cost of US $ 189 million, but the USAAF managed to cancel the entire program in favor of the B-36 intercontinental bomber, at the cost of US $ 5.76 million for each plane.

With this operation, the Strategic Air Command kept its monopoly on nuclear weapons delivery until the approval by the Congress of the new USS Forrestal (CVA-59) in April 1950.

During that time, the US Navy was forced to operate with the Essex and Midway-class carriers, straight wing fighters and Lockheed P2V-3C Neptune medium bombers.

After the failure of the Pirate and trying to keep alive its 15 years of work project, Zimmerman proposed to Vought an increased performance version of the XF5U, (labelled as Jet Skimmer in the specialized literature) powered by two Allison J33-A-23 turbojets, rated at 5,400 lbf with water injection. Those huge centrifugal engines, with 50.5 in (128.3 cm) of diameter could not be installed in any naval fighter in service, but they could be buried into the wing/body of the XF5U.

Doubling the power of the F-80C Shooting Star fighter and flying without the extra drag and weight of rotors and gearing, the new plane might have been a 20 per cent faster than the XF5U, but still inferior to the MiG-15 top speed, because the drag penalty induced by their wingtip vortex.

The Jet Skimmer would have retained some of the STOL of the XF5U capability thanks to the special design of its exceptionally low aspect ratio wing. Fitted with the original landing gear and tail hook equipment it might have been able to operate from any escort carrier, but Vought preferred to continue with the development of the V-346 Cutlass, a decision that the Navy would soon regret after the loss of 78 airplanes in accidents.

 

[Ivan Culjak]

I find the level of emotion and quick dismissals on the internet odd and unprofessional. Research is difficult, dismissals are easy.

What you consider "unprofessional" is actally basic and proper science. As Sagan said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Dismissals are easy. Sadly, wild claims are even easier. And thus society gets saddled with conspiracy theories up the wazoo.

Acording to Jack (Joachim Kuettner, a Luftwaffe test pilot), who flew some of these advanced craft, they included saucer-shaped vehicles with double intakes and counter-rotating fans and disks and some with advanced propulsion systems. Jack said they had flown successfully.

That's nice. Where' the *evidence*?

If you said you had bacon and eggs for breakfast, I can believe you without any difficulty. If you said your grandfather flew an antigravity Luftwaffe saucer to Mars in 1943, I'd need more than just your word on that.

Sorry, but aren't you overreacting a bit, edwest was not talking about antigravity saucers, not even close..
It was about counterotating rotors packed in circular body, nothing extraterrestrial. And he just made a citation from one book...

 

[edwest4]

It's a bit more complicated than that. In a post-war interview, Henri Coanda spoke about his Lenticular Aerodyne. Mr. Coanda was the discoverer of the Coanda Effect. He patented the design in 1938. When the Germans invaded France where he was living and working, they took the idea and developed it further. This was 1940. Development was ongoing when the war ended. Two things occurred with his work. The others working with him were captured by the Russians. He was being sought by the French government for collaboration. An Anglo-American intelligence team located him first, sparing him any further trouble from the French and Russians.

No antigravity involved.

Also in France, Rene Couzinet developed a very similar design and built a scale presentation model. Photographs of this design were published. It was called the RC.360 Aerodyne and patents were filed in France in May 1955.

Later, further work was conducted in Canada and the United States. Various project designations exist. In the U.S., it was Project 1794 (also MX 1794). In Canada, at the A.V. Roe Company, or AVRO, it was designated WS-606A. The full document title is Weapons System 606A and below that, (Supersonic Application), February 1958.

I have seen the original report made by Kenneth Arnold with a note by Astronomer and Physicist, J. Allen Hynek regarding the 1947 report. A private pilot named Kenneth Arnold was traveling near Mount Ranier in Washington state where he claimed he saw nine objects traveling close by. Mr. Hynek criticizes his estimate regarding the actual speed the objects were traveling at. Although some reporter called them Flying Saucers, that was not the shape he drew for Air Force investigators. Eight objects were spade-shaped like the blade of a shovel. The ninth object was a crescent with a projecting triangle in the back middle. Later, he would have a painting done that clearly shows the shape of that ninth object.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Sorry, but aren't you overreacting a bit,

Nope. Note that the post you necroed back into life was from 2009. In the intervening dozen-plus years, no evidence has come to light supporting the idea that *anybody* was flapping around in VTOL saucers of any kind, much less the Germans in WWII. All evidence from the post-war years showed that the United States Air Force was unable to make it happen'.. and that was with:
1) Virtually unlimited funds
2) Research facilities galore
3) An efficient transfer of scientific knowledge from site to site and from government to company
4) A distinct lack of enemy bombers raining incendiaries nightly
5) A distinct lack of the staff getting conscripted to fight at the eastern front
6) Technology (materials, controls, propulsion, etc.) years in advance of what the Germans had
7) Actual capitalism, the greatest driver of technological advancement in history

With all that, the USAF couldn't make it happen. So I'm *less* tolerant now than I was in 2009 of the "Germans succeeded at making miracles booga booga" gibberish. Put up or shut the ᚠᚪᛣᚳ up.

 

[Dilandu]

Well, Germans have ONE disk-shaped aircraft in WW2...




The diminutive Sack AS-6, made in spare time by factory engineers from the parts of damaged Bf-109. The inventor, Arthur Sack was interested in circular wing performance, and with help of Ernst Udet managed to get the prototype craft build.

In testing, it was far from "miracle". In fact, it wasn't even able to fly - just hop, and twice broke its carriage.

 

[dan_inbox]

Also in France, Rene Couzinet developed a very similar design and built a scale presentation model. Photographs of this design were published. It was called the RC.360 Aerodyne and patents were filed in France in May 1955.

Just to avoid misleading people with partial information: Couzinet did work on the Aérodyne and made much noise about it, but it never flew until he passed away. After that the project was abandonned Nobody else believed in it enough to put up dough. (Couzinet was successful once with the Arc-en-ciel, but then a long string of failures).

There are plenty ideas that show some theoretical capability, but just don't scale up into something practical. For ex the Avrocar or XFV-12 twenty years later.

Now is this because the Evil Government is hiding stuff from us? or just because it doesn't work well enough?
I choose Occam's razor, but everybody can believe what they want. Hey, we still have flat-Earthers...

 

[edwest4]

Also in France, Rene Couzinet developed a very similar design and built a scale presentation model. Photographs of this design were published. It was called the RC.360 Aerodyne and patents were filed in France in May 1955.

Just to avoid misleading people with partial information: Couzinet did work on the Aérodyne and made much noise about it, but it never flew until he passed away. After that the project was abandonned Nobody else believed in it enough to put up dough. (Couzinet was successful once with the Arc-en-ciel, but then a long string of failures).

There are plenty ideas that show some theoretical capability, but just don't scale up into something practical. For ex the Avrocar or XFV-12 twenty years later.

Now is this because the Evil Government is hiding stuff from us? or just because it doesn't work well enough?
I choose Occam's razor, but everybody can believe what they want. Hey, we still have flat-Earthers...

American intelligence was quite concerned.



Air Intelligence Digest

February 1956 Volume 9 Number 2

Published by the Directorate of Intelligence UNITED STATES AIR FORCE

SECRET

TECHNICAL BRIEFS​

Couzinet has improved his flying saucer

René Couzinet of France reportedly has improved his original design of a circular planform, vertical take-off-and-landing aircraft. The reported specifications for the improved version are:

Span: 44.6 feet
Lifting surface area: 645.6 square feet
Six Lycoming engines (180 hp each): 1,080 hp
One turbojet (Marcel Dassault Viper): 1,639 pounds thrust
Empty weight: 9,900 pounds
Useful load: 19,800 pounds
Total weight: 27,700 pounds

According to the report, the modified version incorporates a principle of operation similar to that used in Couzinet’s original proposal, that is, two contra-rotating discs superimposed to annul gyroscopic effect. The discs are supported by a fixed central section in which the cockpit, the engines, and landing gear are located. There are now 50 adjustable vanes around the periphery of each disc instead of the 48 in the earlier proposal.

It is claimed that this improved version has already undergone preliminary wind tunnel tests, and is expected to be flown in April. [CONFIDENTIAL] End

 

[Sherman Tank]

Yeah, and I read British wartime intelligence reports from WW1 that the Germans were building three turret battleships. And a US Army document from 1941 that the newest Japanese battleships carried 16" guns and were named Nissin and Takamatu.

Intelligence reports aren't always correct.

 

[Hood]

That's not "concern" - that's just technical intelligence. Air forces do that all the time to keep abreast of technology and generally nosing around to see what everyone is up to (just like we do on this forum). That's why you find clippings from aero magazines and photocopies of Janes entries in official files for example.

You can download the RAF's intelligence summaries, for example this one has 503 pages of all kinds of digest material on NATO, non-aligned or Eastern Bloc topics - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14703217

 

[Ivan Culjak]

Sorry, but aren't you overreacting a bit,

Nope. Note that the post you necroed back into life was from 2009. In the intervening dozen-plus years, no evidence has come to light supporting the idea that *anybody* was flapping around in VTOL saucers of any kind, much less the Germans in WWII. All evidence from the post-war years showed that the United States Air Force was unable to make it happen'.. and that was with:
1) Virtually unlimited funds
2) Research facilities galore
3) An efficient transfer of scientific knowledge from site to site and from government to company
4) A distinct lack of enemy bombers raining incendiaries nightly
5) A distinct lack of the staff getting conscripted to fight at the eastern front
6) Technology (materials, controls, propulsion, etc.) years in advance of what the Germans had
7) Actual capitalism, the greatest driver of technological advancement in history

With all that, the USAF couldn't make it happen. So I'm *less* tolerant now than I was in 2009 of the "Germans succeeded at making miracles booga booga" gibberish. Put up or shut the ᚠᚪᛣᚳ up.

Sorry, but aren't you overreacting a bit,

Nope. Note that the post you necroed back into life was from 2009. In the intervening dozen-plus years, no evidence has come to light supporting the idea that *anybody* was flapping around in VTOL saucers of any kind, much less the Germans in WWII. All evidence from the post-war years showed that the United States Air Force was unable to make it happen'.. and that was with:
1) Virtually unlimited funds
2) Research facilities galore
3) An efficient transfer of scientific knowledge from site to site and from government to company
4) A distinct lack of enemy bombers raining incendiaries nightly
5) A distinct lack of the staff getting conscripted to fight at the eastern front
6) Technology (materials, controls, propulsion, etc.) years in advance of what the Germans had
7) Actual capitalism, the greatest driver of technological advancement in history

With all that, the USAF couldn't make it happen. So I'm *less* tolerant now than I was in 2009 of the "Germans succeeded at making miracles booga booga" gibberish. Put up or shut the ᚠᚪᛣᚳ up.

Yeah, but aren't we talking about Focke Rochen, at least I did, and it was what Justo Miranda posted and Edwest commented, sorry if misunderstood . I didn't know I should reply only new post, and didn't know that you being less or more tolerant over time, sorry for that, too.
So, Rochen is not flying saucer in terms of UFO, this a significant technical development work , an engineering answer to the problem of vertical take off and land, and flying fast. Helicopter can do vtol, and jets can do fast flight. To this day, comunation of it has not been fully implemented, look for example on Darpa Vtol-x plane program https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTOL_X-Plane.
But using compound propulsion as an design approach - rotor for a vertical part, and jet or prop for horizontal flight is extensively used today.
Focke Rochen is circularly shaped only because rotors are making a circle when rotating..

 

[royabulgaf]

Well, Germans have ONE disk-shaped aircraft in WW2...

View attachment 673422
View attachment 673423

The diminutive Sack AS-6, made in spare time by factory engineers from the parts of damaged Bf-109. The inventor, Arthur Sack was interested in circular wing performance, and with help of Ernst Udet managed to get the prototype craft build.

In testing, it was far from "miracle". In fact, it wasn't even able to fly - just hop, and twice broke its carriage.

Well, technically. In Germany, you are correct. However, when you count the underground bases in Antarctica.....

 

[steelpillow]

wasnt the FW a pre war patent design ?

cheers, Joe

Well, the design is dated 1944, the patent was filed in September 1957. But most interesting is that model tests were conducted in Bremen in mid-1950s.

http://www.vstol.org/GermanVSTOLRotorcraft.pdf

Pages 14 & 15.

This url is dead. Luckily we have the Wayback Machine. A fascinating document indeed. (Annoyingly, this site is "smart" (aka dumb) enough to overrule editorial formatting, sorry about that folks.)

Wayback Machine