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WW2 German "Ursel" Underwater Rocket

moin1900

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Hi everybody

I am searching more informations about the german Project "Ursel".
It should be a anti-destroyer rocket for the XXI submarines !

This is the only drawing I have found
http://www.whq-forum.de/invisionboard/lofiversion/index.php/t21854.html
Sorry for this strange source !

Many greetings
 

Orionblamblam

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moin1900 said:
Hi everybody

I am searching more informations about the german Project "Ursel"....
Sorry for this strange source !
In all probability, its completely fictitious. The source does not inspire confidence.
 

moin1900

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Hi everbody

German Underwater Rockets and Projekt Ursel
http://www.uboataces.com/articles-rocket-uboat.shtml

Many greetings
 

Wurger

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Hello :),

it is not fictitious. Eberhard Roessler, the greatest authority in german submarines ( what better source would you have?) tells it`s story in his book about the Type XXI U-boat. It would be 1,80m long and would be fired from a movable launcher ( with, I believe, 4 of them ) directed at the pursuing destroyer by the sophisticated SP-Anlage. Interestingly, it would be a supercavitating design, using exhaust gases coming out of the nose to produce an air bubble between the rocket and the seawater ( I remember this is called "bugbelufttung" in the book ). A WW2 ancestor to the russian "Shkval", but with a projected range far below the modern one. Cheers.
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

Here more info about the Project Ursel
http://forumarchiv.balsi.de/marine/71471/index.html

Many greetings
 

overscan

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Please do not throw around the Nazi term lightly as it can be very offensive to be labelled a Nazi, especially in Germany. Wurger has cited a serious source for his information. Eberhard Rossler has written extensively on German u-boats, and a translation of his work has been printed by the Naval Institute Press, who are not in the habit of printing neo-Nazi propaganda. Rossler does include numerous projects within his books, which is a good thing for us. If other less reputable authors have repeated his information that does not make the information wrong.

This is a serious point, I ask that everyone in this topic be more careful in future.
 

overscan

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Removed various off-topic posts. Please be more respectful of others in future.
 

Orionblamblam

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overscan said:
Please do not throw around the Nazi term lightly as it can be very offensive to be labelled a Nazi, especially in Germany.


Nobody was labelled a Nazi... except for the Nazis.

Reading comprehension is kinda important, especially when dealing with *this* sort of stuff:
 

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overscan

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Scott, the picture appears to be of a projected modification of type XXI U-boat with a "Ursel" rocket launcher. Have you read the book Wurger cited? I'm certainly not an expert in submarines but there seems to be a fair amount of evidence for the "Ursel" projects existence. The artwork might perhaps be fanciful but that doesn't disprove the existence of the project.
 

Orionblamblam

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overscan said:
Scott, the picture appears to be of a projected modification of type XXI U-boat with a "Ursel" rocket launcher. Have you read the book Wurger cited? I'm certainly not an expert in submarines but there seems to be a fair amount of evidence for the "Ursel" projects existence. The artwork might perhaps be fanciful but that doesn't disprove the existence of the project.
You misunderstand my point. While there may well have been a sub-launched rocket project named "Ursel" (hell, I've got drawings from the NASM of a German sub-launched anti *aircraft* rocket), these things seem to grow in the telling, so that now it's a Shkval prototype linked to a purely fanciful Nazi atomic submarine project.

If I made a claim that the Germans had an anti-aircraft rocket called "Taifun" that featured three stages, a ramjet cruise stage, a thermonuclear warhead and combined infra-red/radar seeking/trained chimp control system, the existince of an actual flak rocket named "Taifun" doesn't mean that the description I gave is unworthy of being questioned.


Further note: "Nazi atomic submarine project" does not imply that someone writing about submarines is a Nazi, but, instead, that the sub project was produced - at least supposedly - by Germans working for the German government during WWII. If people are so damned twitchy about Nazis that they can't even stand to read the word in the proper context, that's a little slice of too damned bad in my book.
Vaguely relevant to this side-discussion: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article37267.ece
 

overscan

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I don't see where anyone suggested it was an atomic sub, except perhaps in the filename. Type XXI was a well-documented conventional submarine.
 

overscan

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Michel Van suggested that WW2 era German atomic submarines were fictional, but that has no bearing on this other than the source of the scan being slightly dubious. The actual drawing only refers to a Type XXI with a type of underwater rocket and makes no reference to atomic power at all.
 

Orionblamblam

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overscan said:
Michel Van suggested that WW2 era German atomic submarines were fictional, but that has no bearing on this other than the source of the scan being slightly dubious. The actual drawing only refers to a Type XXI with a type of underwater rocket and makes no reference to atomic power at all.
Yes, it does. Look at the *whole* drawing, not just the snippet I re-posted.

And beyond: the drawing of the "Ursel" certainly does not seem to show an underwater rocket, rather something a lot more like the "Hawk" SAM.
 

overscan

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Well, yes, the original drawing also shows a largely fictional atomic submarine, but Moin1900 posted it for the drawing of a real project, the XXI with Ursel. Now we can debate whether its a realistic depiction of the project (given the artists track record, perhaps not) but that is different from dismissing the existence of the project. Confusing the work of a fantasist with Mr Rossler isn't very helpful.

Perhaps we can get back to this topic? I don't have a copy of the book in question, perhaps Wurger can elaborate on what is said about Ursel, or is it just a minor mention? Any drawings?
 

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Antonio

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I don't see where anyone suggested it was an atomic sub...


That's what happens when posts vanish...
It was my post which was deleted where I cited the original source for this scanned pic (Friedrich Georg's "Hitler's Miracle Weapons" books) and labeled the "atomic u-boat" profile as fictional. BTW, the word "nazi" was not included in my text so I don't know what was wrong to be deleted.

Wow, I guess I`m a bit lost since my last visit to this topic... :)
 

Antonio

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Think I understand...

That three submarine profiles are not coming from Eberhard Roessler book but from Friedrich Georg. Mr Eberhard Roessler is an authority on the U-Boot topic while I'm not 100% confident on Mr Friedich Georg books. I think Justo and Boxkite can confirm it too.

The XXI is obviously a real design but not the same for the nuclear powered Typ XXVI drawing. That is fictional.

The XXI Lafferenz is real and the drawing is right.

About the XXI Ursel I have no idea if it is an accurate drawing of the real thing or not. However I agree with Scott that looks more a Hawk than a German WWII rocket.
 

Jemiba

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Don't know, if someone noticed, that the profile with the Ursel/Hawk is carrying
the description " für VERGELTUNGSWAFFE Ursel" (retaliation weapon). To my opinion,
just this word severly lessens the credibility of the source. "Ursel" may well have been
the code name for an underwater rocket, such systems are mentioned in many sources,
but, as we already discussed in another thread, the german term "Vergeltungswaffe" had
quite a special meaning, mainly derived from the ministry for propaganda.
So, it seems to me, that the author didn't know about this, nevertheless, he used it in the
description.
And so there are doubts remaining, where he may have used other terms or informations , he
didn't know enough about ... ::)
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

I do not know a drawing of this rocket ! Maybe there are not any drawings ?

Many greetings
 

Speedy

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Hi

I found this in one old Polish book by T.Burakowski, A.Sala "Rakiety i pociski kierowane" (Rockets and guided missiles) published in 1960. Probably this is "Ursel":


I try to translate text:
Pic.354. Unguided rocket missile cal.165 mm "underwater-to-underwater" class: 1 - warhead; 2 - solid rocket fuel; 3 - tube for directing forward the combustion gases for reducing the friction of water; 4 - exhaust holes for combustion gases; 5 - nozzle; 6 - fins; 7 - fuselage

Very short description is in the text on the same page:
The picture 354 shows the typical unguided missile this kind. His lenght is 1,8 m, diameter 0,165 m, fins span 0,3 m. It could be stress that for reduction of friction between the missile's fuselage and the water in which the missile move, a part of combustion gases is directed forward by a special tube; on the top of ogival missile are small exhaust holes for these gases. When the missile move in the water, between the fuselage and water arise a thin layer of combustion gases.

And this is picture from the other book by Burakowski and Sala, "Rakiety bojowe" (Combat rockets) from 1972:


The text is:
Caliber 165. Germany - 1-stage rocket missile, submarine-launched, against submarines and surface vessels, underwater-to-underwater and underwater-to-surface class. Unguided. Warhead: conventional. Engine: solid rocket. Dimensions: L=1,8 m, D=0,165 m, B1=0,3 m. Probably not used in combat.

Although Burakowski and Sala do not mentioned the name "Ursel" anywhere, looks that it could be this missile. Dimensions are correct and the technical details (gas tube for drag reduction) are consistent.
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

To Speedy
WOW WOW I thought there are no drawings !
Thank you so much ! I found this !
http://www.eksplorator.com/73.htm
I think this is the rocket !

Compared with the Data from here !
http://forumarchiv.balsi.de/marine/71471/index.html

lenght is 1,8 m, diameter 15 cm ? , range 300m, speed 60kn, warhead 15kg

I think "Ursel" is the name of the whole program ! "Submarine Missiles"
The Missile was made by Rheinmetall-Borsig or WASAG ?

Many greetings and Thanks a lot
 

RP1

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The atomic powered design is in Polmars Cold War Submarines. It is a 1946 proposal by Ross Gunn and Philip Abelson for an atomic submarine based on the Type XXVI Walter-propelled submarine hull.

The report was submitted in March 1946, and was American, not German. The two authors had worked in the Naval Research Lab on atomic power during the war. No secret German project there.

RP1
 

Orionblamblam

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RP1 said:
No secret German project there.
Indeed. Whenever "German atomic..." appears, I get twitchy. Heisenberg, either intentionally or not, so completely fouled the German atomic program that not only was a bomb completely unrealistic, so was a reactor. The Germans were in essense still futzing around with basic physics when the war ended, nowhere near engineering. A "German atomic powerplant" in 1945 would be as grounded in reality as an "American warp drive" would in 2008.
 

Antonio

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Thanks a lot RP1

the powerplant drawing is on page 52.

Typ XXVI was unknown to me :eek:

In fact, according to "US Submarines since 1945 by Norman Friedman", Typ XXVI was considered in 1945 as the ideal model for future USN attack submarine designs in preference to Typ XXI.

A link with some Typ XXVI drawings:

http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30035

Speedy, thanks a lot for that probable Ursel info!
 

Wurger

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To settle this subject for good, here comes some interesting additions from an allied intelligence report. Hope you like it. More to come.
 

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moin1900

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Hi everybody

To Wurger: These drawings are GREAT ! Thanks a lot for sharing !

Many greetings
 

Wurger

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As I`ve promised, here follows more on the Ursel project. These and the previous images were taken from an allied report dated 1945, "German Underwater Rockets", produced by the "U.S. Naval Technical Mission in Europe".
As you could see, of the twelve experimental rockets, five were fitted with the "bugbeluftung", a device set at the rocket nose meant to create a layer between water and the rocket body. That was made with exhaust gas ( a small fraction diverted, like the present russian "Skhval" ). According the report the latter designs were functioning well. Range and speed were enough for the purpose initially in mind, to defend the submarine from attacking ships. Mind the sketch, with instalation aboard a U-boat. It was to be trained and launched automatically by the SP-anlage.
All this matches perfectly what was said before on this matter, based on Eberhard Rössler`s books. Mr. Rössler, you are THE expert. This report, made by unsuspected allied intelligence officers, just confirms your knowledge.
To those who believe in reliable sources, enjoy.
 

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Longshaor

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Thought this might help, there was a Kreigsmarine project known as the Type XXVI U-boat which comprised at least 4 sub-designs, HOWEVER none of them were atomic. Three were Walther turbine driven (a closed cycle internal combustion engine using high-test peroxide as an oxidiser) while the remaining design was conventional deisel/electric.
 

moin1900

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Hi
Drawing of U-Rakete Ursel CPVA 1944.
http://www.supercavitation.net/2reichardt.htm
http://www.supercavitation.net/rei9430823.htm
 

Wurger

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Excellent stuff, thanks for sharing! The great Fritz Hahn had, as back as 1963, stated a "neuartiger Kurzstreckentorpedo, der raketengetrieben Geschwindigkeit bis zu 300 km/h erreichte...", probably also intended to be aircraft launched. Science-fiction for the other powers...
 

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what was the diameter of the tube supposed to be use for launching the rocket?
 
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