French never built and preliminary designs since 1880

gollevainen

gollevainen

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Hello

As part of my shipbucket hobby, I've been collecting as much references as possible of french never-build and preliminary ship designs. I must say that its not been an easy task, sometimes I think that french stuff is more mystical and hard to find than Russian/soviet stuff of which i've been collecting since I've been here in Internet.

So I decided to post some of the stuff that I've found here. I will post those stuff which I haven't seen here before and mostly focusing on stuff that is not that well known. I will post these here alongside as my shipbucket project of drawing them proceeds.

I warmly welcome others to post their findings of french naval neverwheres here as well.

Cruisers 1880-1900:
Forbin pre.png
Preliminary version of Forbin with only two mainguns and 4 masts

Davout pre.png
Preliminary design of Davout with only 4 mainguns and 4 masts.
Cecille.jpg
Original design of Amiral Cecille lacking the center gun sponsons.
Alger pre.png
Preliminary design of Alger without the military masts and full sailing rig instead.
Jean Bart pre.png Preliminary design of Jean Bart without the military masts and full sailing rig instead.
 
Friant 1.jpg Friant 3.jpg
Original design of Friant with military main- and foremast.
Chatorenou pre.png
Preliminary design for a fast commerce raiding cruiser that evolved into Châteaurenault and Guichen.
Jean D'arc pre Trebulja .png
Original Jeanne d'Arc, a station cruiser designed by Tréboul which was to follow D`Entrecasteaux. Canceled in favour of Bertin's armoured cruiser by the same name.
 
Battleships 1880-1900:
Hoche pre 1.png
Original design from 1880 by Huin. Envolved into Neptune, Marceau and Magneta.
Brennus pre 1.jpg
de Bussy's original battleship design for Brennus. Featured en-enchelon turrets for the main guns and mixed boiler machinery.
Brennus pre 4.png
Simplified version of the de Bussy design with direct fire boilers.

Brennus pre 5.png
Competitive design for Brennus by Huin with the traditional french lozenge arrangement for main guns.
Hoche pre 2.png
Initial variant of the Hoche design with sailing rig.
 
1890 270mm.png
Battleship designed by Huin in 1890 that preceded Charles Martel . Was considered too large and expensive and thus not accepted. 340mm guns in centerline, 274.4mm in the sides.
1890 340mm.png
Lighter and smaller variant of the previous, 4 274.4mm mainguns.
2_Huin_reduce_displa_77D0C0.jpg
Even further reduced displacement variants of the 1890 Huin's design.
Charles martel pre 3.png
Preliminary design for Charles Martel with 2 305mm and 2 274.4mm, designed by Huin.
 
2-0 (1).png
Preliminary design for Charlemagne.
Carnot pre.png
Original design for Carnot, with full military masts.
305mm Emil Bertin.png
Cuirasse-croiseur 1.png
Planned battleship-cruiser advocated by Naval minister Lockroy, was to be 3 knots faster than contemporary battleships and armed with 2 305mm guns and 14 164mm guns. Designed by Bertin. Similar in concept to later Japanese Tsubuka class armoured cruisers and Italian Regina Elena class battleships.
1753151391c6-680x414.jpg
Initial design for Bertin's 15,000t battleship that envolved into Patrie and Démocratie Class.
 
During WWII:

1. The twin-mount Hotchkiss 37mm auto-cannon Mle 1935 mounted to aviso (sloop) Amiens in 1939, with power remote azimuth (but gunner elevation), fast remote controlled pipper driven by an aim-predicting computer utilizing a dedicated remote rangefinder, and dedicated ammo chain-elevator, was intended to be a prototype installation for expected mounts on several ships, including France's battleships and a possible carrier.

Useful information is available on the Amiens prototype, but I don't know of any surviving drawings of the further intended installations.

2. The Le Hardi destroyer class was planned pre-war to have its insufficient AA armament (a pair of obsolescent double 13.2mm Hotchkiss HMGs, a pair of obsolete single Mle 1927 semiautomatic cannons, and an obsolete double Mle 1933 semiautomatic cannon mount) replaced with a greater number of naval versions of the Hotchkiss single 25mm Mle 1940/double 25mm Mle 1940J auto-cannons. Those latter guns were evolved, much-faster-firing versions of the mid-1930s Hotchkiss design (similar to the Mle 1938) that Japan licensed, and extensively utilized as their Type 96.

Late-1941 modifications were made to some ships of the class...not the same as the pre-war intended mods: the Hotchkiss HMGs were moved to the quarterdeck, a pair of Fabrique Nationale (Belgium) Browning-type single 13.2mm HMGs were added aft, and a pair of Hotchkiss single Mle 1939 25mm auto-cannons were added in the prior locations of the forward Hotchkiss HMGs.

Information is available on the various guns intended in the pre-war plans to be fitted, but I don't know of any surviving drawings of the intended installations.
 
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Do you have actual data for these proposals? dimensions, displacement, engines, armament etc?
 
I'm gonna love this thread. Congrats for the kid and also for all that eye candy.

One can feel the Jeune École catastrophic influence only by looking at the 1890 era blueprints. Worst thing ever happened to the Marine Nationale between Trafalgar and MEK 1940.
 
Archibald said:
I'm gonna love this thread. Congrats for the kid and also for all that eye candy.

One can feel the Jeune École catastrophic influence only by looking at the 1890 era blueprints. Worst thing ever happened to the Marine Nationale between Trafalgar and MEK 1940.
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Be grateful that Gollevainen only had a written description of the preliminary design for the Léger class torpedo cruiser, and not an actual sketch.
 
OMFG. Don't tell me it was SUCH MONSTROSITY ? I'm remembered of that (silly) Spongebob meme "My eeeeeeyeeees !"
 
Dilandu said:
gollevainen said:
Preliminary design of Dupuy de Lôme, Barbettes and casemates in place of turrets of the definitive version.
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Very interesting! So she was envisioned basically as cruiser version of Marceau? What kind of armament was planned at this stage?
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The guns were to be the same as were eventually fitted, they were only in different mounts in this version.

Thanks for comments, the child is now 1 day old and doing fine and i try to sneak here and then check these forums.

As for the Leger preliminary, is there a actual scetch available of the premilinary layout? I’ve only heard written description of it but weren’t able find any drawings
 
gollevainen said:
As for the Leger preliminary, is there a actual scetch available of the premilinary layout? I’ve only heard written description of it but weren’t able find any drawings
Click to expand...
I don't know anything more than you do, I can find a description in French Warships in the Age of Steam 1859-1914, and that's it (I don't have any of the French or Russian-language sources that you have) plus I've seen your interpretation of the design for your Aravala AU.

Context for those who don't know is that two of the preliminary designs for the Léger class had a pair of 15-metre tall funnels on which topmasts with observations posts were stepped, which would have created an unusual silhouette given the Léger class were 62.08-metres long overall and 60.92 metres between perpendiculars. The ships as built had a single smaller funnel and two small masts.
 
So a year have passed and yet another child...

Anyways continuing this thread, here's some lesser known French destroyer designs, dating mostly from Vichy era and couple pre-war and post-war designs as well. They are all taken from an article "Du Volta au Surcouf" from french magazine Marines & Forces Navales no110 and 111.

First pic is a data from various designs described in the article. Next presents the pre-war designs (Last ship in the bottom is the E42A, the lable is worn out in the scan). Third shows the various alternatives of the E43 design, Fourth image shows post-war heavy destroyer/light cruiser design preceding the T47 design and the fifth image shows T47 Surcouf preliminary designs. At last there is a table of the various E43 characteristics. (Sorry about the confusing order of images)
table.jpg projet10.jpg

projet12.jpg projet13.jpg t-47b_10.jpg E43 stats.jpg
 
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No, its after the armistice, the 42 stands for 1942 when the design was planned. First the Vichy France planned to build the T41 design, which was somewhat enlarged Le Fier in terms of size and capability. The T stands for torpilleur but it was replaced in the designboard by larger E42, with the new Escourter classification and that path culminated in the E42A which was the only one with drawing in the article.
 
gollevainen said:
So a year have passed and yet another child...

Anyways continuing this thread, here's some lesser known French destroyer designs, dating mostly from Vichy era and couple pre-war and post-war designs as well. They are all taken from an article "Du Volta au Surcouf" from french magazine Marines & Forces Navales no110 and 111.

First pic is a data from various designs described in the article. Next presents the pre-war designs (Last ship in the bottom is the E42A, the lable is worn out in the scan). Third shows the various alternatives of the E43 design, Fourth image shows post-war heavy destroyer/light cruiser design preceding the T47 design and the fifth image shows T47 Surcouf preliminary designs. At last there is a table of the various E43 characteristics. (Sorry about the confusing order of images)
View attachment 742561View attachment 742562

View attachment 742563View attachment 742564View attachment 742565View attachment 742566
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Any chance you could snap phone pics of the full article? I really need it.
Many thanks if you would help!
 
Hello!

Many, many years ago I've found this site:
Which collected the various ship classes of all navies in one place including built and only designed ships as well, though in a bit of difficult to read format, but after figuring out the logic you can easily read the required data.

Of which of relevancy is this "article" or page, describing a French Destroyer Project from around 1940 called the Hoche class:
Destroyer classes sub page:

The site states these data: (apparently an Improved or Modified Mogador type:
Dimensions: 131 (pp) x 137,5 (oa) x 13 x 4,65 meters
Displacement: 2.930tons (Empty), 3.750tons (standard), 4.180tons (full load)
Engines: 100.000shp likely Rateau-Bretagne Steam Turbines, probably around 6x Sural-Norguet Boilers, 2-Shafts
Speed: 72km/h (39knots)
Range: 3600km at 56km/h (probably?)
Armaments:
4x2 139mm/50 Modèle 1934 Guns or a new /45 calibre gun? or error
2x2 100mm/45 Modèle 1933 DP-AA Guns
4x2 13,2mm/76 Hotchkiss Modèle 1929 AA Guns
2x3 550mm Torpedo Tubes
4x Depth Charge Racks and 2x Launchers

Apparently originally 10 ships were ordered:
Hoche
Desaix
Kleber
Marceau
plus 6 unnamed (Similar ships)
but later 4 more were re-ordered from the L'Intrepide class:
L'Eveille
L'Alerte
L'Inconstant
L'Espiegle

Does anybody know more about this class? The data described above does not fit well to either of the destroyer projects of this post:
 
Improved Mogador ("Project Kléber") from Warship 1984 Vol VIII.
Improved Mogador type.png
plus 6 unnamed (Similar ships)
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In the same article, first two of new six super-destroyers have their name given as Bruix and Bayard.
 
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Is likely an error from the article, these old Warship books have some minor typo and errors.
 
Thanks!
So the official name of the class is Kléber correct?
 
gollevainen said:
So a year have passed and yet another child...

Anyways continuing this thread, here's some lesser known French destroyer designs, dating mostly from Vichy era and couple pre-war and post-war designs as well. They are all taken from an article "Du Volta au Surcouf" from french magazine Marines & Forces Navales no110 and 111.

First pic is a data from various designs described in the article. Next presents the pre-war designs (Last ship in the bottom is the E42A, the lable is worn out in the scan). Third shows the various alternatives of the E43 design, Fourth image shows post-war heavy destroyer/light cruiser design preceding the T47 design and the fifth image shows T47 Surcouf preliminary designs. At last there is a table of the various E43 characteristics. (Sorry about the confusing order of images)
View attachment 742561View attachment 742562

View attachment 742563View attachment 742564View attachment 742565View attachment 742566
Click to expand...
The guns on these Vichy designs like the 115mm ( E42A I presume from 1942 ) and 120mm guns ( E43A/B I presume from 1943 ) are own French designs or Import ones like German or Swedish?
 
From John Jordan and Jean Moulin's French Destroyers: Torpilleurs d'Escadre & Contre-Torpilleurs, 1922–1956:
An order to resume construction was issued in 15 April 1940, acceptance trials being rescheduled for September 1942 (Marceau), June 1943 (Desaix), September 1943 (Kléber) and December 1943 (Hoche). Two weeks previously, a supplementary programme for a further six ships of a modified design, Type 1940, had been passed. The names submitted to the Navy Minister on 15 May 1940 (Circular 1138 FMF/3) were: Bayard, Du Guesclin, D’Assas, La Tour d’Auvergne, Turenne and Bugeaud. There was no time for a formal response, as the project was overtaken by events. With the defeat of France in June 1940 the orders for all these ships were cancelled.
 
Just came across some versions of the Commandant Rivière class. The heli versions are quite interesting, but probably for an Alouette III only, Lynx being too big/heavy.(?)

forummarine.forumactif.com

Avisos-escorteurs classe COMMANDANT RIVIÈRE

Les avisos-escorteurs de type AE 54 étaient à l'origine prévus en deux versions, modifiables. Une version avec trois pièces d'artillerie de 100 mm Une version a
forummarine.forumactif.com forummarine.forumactif.com
 

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