French never build and preliminary designs since 1880

[gollevainen]

Hello

As part of my shipbucket hobby, I've been collecting as much references as possible of french never-build and preliminary ship designs. I must say that its not been an easy task, sometimes I think that french stuff is more mystical and hard to find than Russian/soviet stuff of which i've been collecting since I've been here in Internet.

So I decided to post some of the stuff that I've found here. I will post those stuff which I haven't seen here before and mostly focusing on stuff that is not that well known. I will post these here alongside as my shipbucket project of drawing them proceeds.

I warmly welcome others to post their findings of french naval neverwheres here as well.

Cruisers 1880-1900:

Preliminary version of Forbin with only two mainguns and 4 masts


Preliminary design of Davout with only 4 mainguns and 4 masts.

Original design of Amiral Cecille lacking the center gun sponsons.

Preliminary design of Alger without the military masts and full sailing rig instead.
Preliminary design of Jean Bart without the military masts and full sailing rig instead.

 

[gollevainen]

Original design of Friant with military main- and foremast.

Preliminary design for a fast commerce raiding cruiser that evolved into Châteaurenault and Guichen.

Original Jeanne d'Arc, a station cruiser designed by Tréboul which was to follow D`Entrecasteaux. Canceled in favour of Bertin's armoured cruiser by the same name.

 

[gollevainen]

Armoured cruisers 1880-1900:

Preliminary design of Dupuy de Lôme, Barbettes and casemates in place of turrets of the definitive version.

Original design of Bertin's Jeanne d'Arc

Preliminary design of Dupleix class armoured cruisers.

 

[gollevainen]

Battleships 1880-1900:

Original design from 1880 by Huin. Envolved into Neptune, Marceau and Magneta.

de Bussy's original battleship design for Brennus. Featured en-enchelon turrets for the main guns and mixed boiler machinery.

Simplified version of the de Bussy design with direct fire boilers.


Competitive design for Brennus by Huin with the traditional french lozenge arrangement for main guns.

Initial variant of the Hoche design with sailing rig.

 

[gollevainen]

Battleship designed by Huin in 1890 that preceded Charles Martel . Was considered too large and expensive and thus not accepted. 340mm guns in centerline, 274.4mm in the sides.

Lighter and smaller variant of the previous, 4 274.4mm mainguns.

Even further reduced displacement variants of the 1890 Huin's design.

Preliminary design for Charles Martel with 2 305mm and 2 274.4mm, designed by Huin.

 

[gollevainen]

Preliminary design for Charlemagne.

Original design for Carnot, with full military masts.


Planned battleship-cruiser advocated by Naval minister Lockroy, was to be 3 knots faster than contemporary battleships and armed with 2 305mm guns and 14 164mm guns. Designed by Bertin. Similar in concept to later Japanese Tsubuka class armoured cruisers and Italian Regina Elena class battleships.

Initial design for Bertin's 15,000t battleship that envolved into Patrie and Démocratie Class.

 

[JWilly]

During WWII:

1. The twin-mount Hotchkiss 37mm auto-cannon Mle 1935 mounted to aviso (sloop) Amiens in 1939, with power remote azimuth (but gunner elevation), fast remote controlled pipper driven by an aim-predicting computer utilizing a dedicated remote rangefinder, and dedicated ammo chain-elevator, was intended to be a prototype installation for expected mounts on several ships, including France's battleships and a possible carrier.

Useful information is available on the Amiens prototype, but I don't know of any surviving drawings of the further intended installations.

2. The Le Hardi destroyer class was planned pre-war to have its insufficient AA armament (a pair of obsolescent double 13.2mm Hotchkiss HMGs, a pair of obsolete single Mle 1927 semiautomatic cannons, and an obsolete double Mle 1933 semiautomatic cannon mount) replaced with a greater number of naval versions of the Hotchkiss single 25mm Mle 1940/double 25mm Mle 1940J auto-cannons. Those latter guns were evolved, much-faster-firing versions of the mid-1930s Hotchkiss design (similar to the Mle 1938) that Japan licensed, and extensively utilized as their Type 96.

Late-1941 modifications were made to some ships of the class...not the same as the pre-war intended mods: the Hotchkiss HMGs were moved to the quarterdeck, a pair of Fabrique Nationale (Belgium) Browning-type single 13.2mm HMGs were added aft, and a pair of Hotchkiss single Mle 1939 25mm auto-cannons were added in the prior locations of the forward Hotchkiss HMGs.

Information is available on the various guns intended in the pre-war plans to be fitted, but I don't know of any surviving drawings of the intended installations.

 

[Tzoli]

Do you have actual data for these proposals? dimensions, displacement, engines, armament etc?

 

[gollevainen]

Most of them are preliminary layouts of existing ships, mostly the cruisers. I have some data on some of the battleships, but not from all. I'll try to find time at some point to dig them up. Our second child is about to born in any given moment so I'm bit occupied atm

 

[Antonio]

Our second child is about to born in any given moment so I'm bit occupied atm

congrats!

 

[Dilandu]

Preliminary design of Dupuy de Lôme, Barbettes and casemates in place of turrets of the definitive version.

Very interesting! So she was envisioned basically as cruiser version of Marceau? What kind of armament was planned at this stage?

 

[Archibald]

I'm gonna love this thread. Congrats for the kid and also for all that eye candy.

One can feel the Jeune École catastrophic influence only by looking at the 1890 era blueprints. Worst thing ever happened to the Marine Nationale between Trafalgar and MEK 1940.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

I'm gonna love this thread. Congrats for the kid and also for all that eye candy.

One can feel the Jeune École catastrophic influence only by looking at the 1890 era blueprints. Worst thing ever happened to the Marine Nationale between Trafalgar and MEK 1940.

Be grateful that Gollevainen only had a written description of the preliminary design for the Léger class torpedo cruiser, and not an actual sketch.

 

[Archibald]

OMFG. Don't tell me it was SUCH MONSTROSITY ? I'm remembered of that (silly) Spongebob meme "My eeeeeeyeeees !"

 

[gollevainen]

Preliminary design of Dupuy de Lôme, Barbettes and casemates in place of turrets of the definitive version.

Very interesting! So she was envisioned basically as cruiser version of Marceau? What kind of armament was planned at this stage?

The guns were to be the same as were eventually fitted, they were only in different mounts in this version.

Thanks for comments, the child is now 1 day old and doing fine and i try to sneak here and then check these forums.

As for the Leger preliminary, is there a actual scetch available of the premilinary layout? I’ve only heard written description of it but weren’t able find any drawings

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

As for the Leger preliminary, is there a actual scetch available of the premilinary layout? I’ve only heard written description of it but weren’t able find any drawings

I don't know anything more than you do, I can find a description in French Warships in the Age of Steam 1859-1914, and that's it (I don't have any of the French or Russian-language sources that you have) plus I've seen your interpretation of the design for your Aravala AU.

Context for those who don't know is that two of the preliminary designs for the Léger class had a pair of 15-metre tall funnels on which topmasts with observations posts were stepped, which would have created an unusual silhouette given the Léger class were 62.08-metres long overall and 60.92 metres between perpendiculars. The ships as built had a single smaller funnel and two small masts.

 

[gollevainen]

Ah ok

Indeed that book is must-have for all who are interssed of french fleet of that period.

 

[gollevainen]

So a year have passed and yet another child...

Anyways continuing this thread, here's some lesser known French destroyer designs, dating mostly from Vichy era and couple pre-war and post-war designs as well. They are all taken from an article "Du Volta au Surcouf" from french magazine Marines & Forces Navales n 110 and 111.

First pic is a data from various designs described in the article. Next presents the pre-war designs (Last ship in the bottom is the E42A, the lable is worn out in the scan). Third shows the various alternatives of the E43 design, Fourth image shows post-war heavy destroyer/light cruiser design preceding the T47 design and the fifth image shows T47 Surcouf preliminary designs. At last there is a table of the various E43 characteristics. (Sorry about the confusing order of images)

 

[YourChair]

Great find! Too bad the French archive site isn't up anymore, cause they had a copy of that article...

 

[ptdockyard]

So the E42A was a pre-war design?

 

[gollevainen]

No, its after the armistice, the 42 stands for 1942 when the design was planned. First the Vichy France planned to build the T41 design, which was somewhat enlarged Le Fier in terms of size and capability. The T stands for torpilleur but it was replaced in the designboard by larger E42, with the new Escourter classification and that path culminated in the E42A which was the only one with drawing in the article.

 

[BROF]

Slight correction: "escorteur". Good work!

 

[gollevainen]

Yeah pardon my french