USS Long Beach Preliminary Studies

[Tzoli]

These are all the preliminary design studies I know of which eventually led to the USS Long Beach Nuclear Powered Guided Missile Cruiser. They are from Friedman't US Crusiers books but even the data in this book was not complete as evident by the missing numbering and lettering variants.
Here is the data table:

https://imgur.com/83FalYl

View: https://i.imgur.com/83FalYl.png


And the various design's drawings:
Pre Scheme A:

https://imgur.com/hXZcYwx

View: https://i.imgur.com/hXZcYwx.png


Schemes D and E:

https://imgur.com/Dihg9rc

View: https://i.imgur.com/Dihg9rc.png


Scheme N:

https://imgur.com/69ottI3

View: https://i.imgur.com/69ottI3.png


Scheme O:

https://imgur.com/3t7k8MW

View: https://i.imgur.com/3t7k8MW.png


Schemes J,P and Q:
https://i.imgur.com/jZjGJLa.png

Scheme Z:
https://i.imgur.com/1Bpm1kY.png

About Pre Scheme A what would be that on top of the aft mast that sorta X or 8 shaped radio antennae?

Also desipite her hull was long gone (Or was part of it (the reactor compartment) still floats? ) there are no decent drawing about this vessel done when she was commissioned?

Also it seems the cube shaped bridge superstructure was appeared in the last part of the design phase as these drawings shows octogonal shape with the horizontal SPS-32's on the parallel and perpendicular sides while the vertical SPS-33's on the diagonal sides though at this time there were multiple sizes considered for these radars as some of the drawings show quite narrow vertical diagonal surfaces for them!

 

[isayyo2]

Interesting as always @Tzoli, great find!

 

[Dilandu]

Very interesting! Thank you for the find!

 

[Dilandu]

About Pre Scheme A what would be that on top of the aft mast that sorta X or 8 shaped radio antennae?

Hm. Looks a bit like SK-2 radar dish.


But for 1956, SK-2 was a bit old...

Maybe its artist impression for AN/SPS-8A?

 

[TomS]

About Pre Scheme A what would be that on top of the aft mast that sorta X or 8 shaped radio antennae?

If you mean the very topmost antenna, i think it looks like some version of high-frequency direction finding.

I think Dilandu is talking about the round "antenna" just below and forward of that (a circle with a cross inside), which is just a space reservation in the drawing -- an antenna of some sort would occupy that volume but the details are omitted. It doesn't necessarily reflect the actual shape of the antenna or radome that would sit there, just a sense of the space it would take up.

 

[Tzoli]

The round antennae just below was an SPS-26 I believe as evident on Scheme D and yes I mean the topmost antennae

 

[Dilandu]

I think Dilandu is talking about the round "antenna" just below and forward of that (a circle with a cross inside), which is just a space reservation in the drawing -- an antenna of some sort would occupy that volume but the details are omitted. It doesn't necessarily reflect the actual shape of the antenna or radome that would sit there, just a sense of the space it would take up.

Ah. Sorry, I misunderstood then.

 

[Tzoli]

That radar dome on Scheme E reminds me of the Radio Star Tracker Dome of the Iowa double ended conversion proposals:

Double Ended Iowa class BBG Version 1 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

I imagine from the shape that it's meant to be a representation of a URN-3 TACAN antenna (There is similar antenna on Design D's mainmast). The dielectric fairings covering the antenna used by US Ships during this period have a similar cross-section, whereas the British version of the URN-3 (known as Type 957) has a straight-sided cylindrical fairing.

 

[TomS]

Yep, that's definitely it.

 

[uk 75]

The US kit manufacturer Revell was quick off the mark to issue a plastic kit of Long Beach with beautiful box art. Note the Regulus 2 amidships instead of ASROC.
The German waterline shipmaker HANSA made the same version in metal in 1/1250 scale.

 

[Tzoli]

I think maybe at least two more pre-schemes exists, both without guns, one a double ended Terrier and another a Terrier (Forward) Talos (Aft) version:
Friedman states the single Terrier version was 8.500tons full load a double Terrier again 8.500tons but saying push up so maybe standard displacement? And the Terrier-Talos 8.850tons again probably standard displacement, but I'm not sure, this second 8.500tons could be a typo.
Question can the Pre-Scheme A hull carry two Terrier or one Terrier one Talos magazines?

 

[Tzoli]

On Schemes D and also on Z Friedman writes that the radars atop the octogonal bridge structure are CW (I assume Continuous Wave? ) illuminators. Does anybody know how these should look like? I thought Terriers only required the SPQ-5 or SPG-55 directors and did not require other radars.

Also on Scheme Z for the Regulus Friedman states that the radars required are SPQ-2 which he gives very limited info in this radars book:

Is there any photo or drawing or description how this SPQ-2 looked like?

 

[Tzoli]

Here is my drawing based on the Pre-Scheme A:

CLGN Pre-Scheme A by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The designs had these characteristics:
Dimensions: 173,73m (oa) x 16,76m
Displacement: 8.900tons (Full Load)
Engines: 80.000shp Westinghouse C1W Nuclear Reactors, 2 shafts
Speed: 59km/h (32knots)
Armaments:
2x1 5"/54 Mark 18 DP-Guns,
1x2 RIM-2 Terrier SAM,
2x2 RAT Launchers,
1x5 533mm Torpedo Tubes
2x3 324mm Torpedo Tubes

Sensors:
SPS-10 - Surface-Search Radar
SPS-12 - Air-Search radar
SPS-26 - 3D Air-Search Radar
SPS-53 - Surface-Search/Navigational Radar
2x SPQ-5 - Terrier Illumination/tracking radars
SPG-25 - Gun Director Radar
TACAN - TACtical Air Navigation System

 

[isayyo2]

The torpedo armament is interesting; probably one the last American surface ships designed with the big tubes?

 

[Tzoli]

Next is Pre-Scheme B based on Friedman's description of the early double ended Terrier version:

CLGN Pre-Scheme B by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had these characteristics:
Dimensions: 173,73m (oa) x 16,76m
Displacement: 8.500tons (standard)
Engines: 80.000shp Westinghouse C1W Nuclear Reactors, 2 shafts
Speed: 59km/h (32knots)
Armaments:
2x2 RIM-2 Terrier SAM,
2x2 RAT Launchers,
1x5 533mm Torpedo Tubes
2x3 324mm Torpedo Tubes

Sensors:
SPS-10 - Surface-Search Radar
SPS-12 - Air-Search Radar
SPS-26 - 3D Air-Search Radar
SPS-53 - Surface-Search/Navigational Radar
4x SPQ-5 - Terrier Illumination/tracking radars
TACAN - TACtical Air Navigation System

 

[TomS]

The torpedo armament is interesting; probably one the last American surface ships designed with the big tubes?

Last would be the Knox and Brooke classes, some of which were actually built with a pair of Mk 25 stern tubes for heavyweight (ASW) torpedoes. The tubes were torn out pretty early on in favor of VDS and a lot of ships probably never had them. I've only ever seen one picture of the tubes, on USS Brooke.

 

[isayyo2]

The torpedo armament is interesting; probably one the last American surface ships designed with the big tubes?

Last would be the Knox and Brooke classes, some of which were actually built with a pair of Mk 25 stern tubes for heavyweight (ASW) torpedoes. The tubes were torn out pretty early on in favor of VDS and a lot of ships probably never had them. I've only ever seen one picture of the tubes, on USS Brooke.

Ah that's right, I forgot I about those stern tubes

 

[Firefinder]

The torpedo armament is interesting; probably one the last American surface ships designed with the big tubes?

Last would be the Knox and Brooke classes, some of which were actually built with a pair of Mk 25 stern tubes for heavyweight (ASW) torpedoes. The tubes were torn out pretty early on in favor of VDS and a lot of ships probably never had them. I've only ever seen one picture of the tubes, on USS Brooke.

Ah that's right, I forgot I about those stern tubes

And dont forget about the Fitted for but not with ones on the California class nuke botes.
They had a room on their stern called the MK48 room, for said torp, up till their decommissioning.

 

[isayyo2]

The torpedo armament is interesting; probably one the last American surface ships designed with the big tubes?

Last would be the Knox and Brooke classes, some of which were actually built with a pair of Mk 25 stern tubes for heavyweight (ASW) torpedoes. The tubes were torn out pretty early on in favor of VDS and a lot of ships probably never had them. I've only ever seen one picture of the tubes, on USS Brooke.

Ah that's right, I forgot I about those stern tubes

And dont forget about the Fitted for but not with ones on the California class nuke botes.
They had a room on their stern called the MK48 room, for said torp, up till their decommissioning.

Fascinating. I’ve never heard that before, is it mentioned in Friedman as well?

 

[Tzoli]

Yes but these were 12'75" ASW torpedoes not 18 or 21" Anti ship ones

 

[Firefinder]

The torpedo armament is interesting; probably one the last American surface ships designed with the big tubes?

Last would be the Knox and Brooke classes, some of which were actually built with a pair of Mk 25 stern tubes for heavyweight (ASW) torpedoes. The tubes were torn out pretty early on in favor of VDS and a lot of ships probably never had them. I've only ever seen one picture of the tubes, on USS Brooke.

Ah that's right, I forgot I about those stern tubes

And dont forget about the Fitted for but not with ones on the California class nuke botes.
They had a room on their stern called the MK48 room, for said torp, up till their decommissioning.

Fascinating. I’ve never heard that before, is it mentioned in Friedman as well?

Believe so. Knew a few of the their crew and all were adamant about there being a room known as the Mark 48 room on theirstern. And the Naval Analyst went into depth on it.

Never had the tubes fit AS far as i know, but the space and bracing was there.

Yes but these were 12'75" ASW torpedoes not 18 or 21" Anti ship ones

Nope the California were to have an 21 inch Anti Surface torpedo system in their stern.

The MK48 was to be the new do all torpedo for both Surface and Sub-Surface ships.

The Navy midway through designing it, decided that surface ships are unlikely to ever make a torp run against Surface ships again so dropped the surface launch variant of the MK48. Apparently it was to have ASW ability too.

Which left the ASW tubes as the only torp system for surface ships.

 

[Tzoli]

Yet the Soviets/Russians had/have 533mm mostly fixed tubes on their ships (Kirov, Slava, Kara, Kresta, Udaloy, Sovremenny, Kanin)

 

[TomS]

Yet the Soviets/Russians had/have 533mm mostly fixed tubes on their ships (Kirov, Slava, Kara, Kresta, Udaloy, Sovremenny, Kanin)

Because the Soviets didn't have an effective surface-launched lightweight torpedo until quite late. Also, on some ships, they used the 533mm tubes to launch the same ASW standoff weapons used on submarines.

 

[Tzoli]

Following with Pre-Scheme C the Talos-Terrier version of A (or B)

CLGN Pre-Scheme C by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had these characteristics:
Dimensions: 173,73m (oa) x 16,76m
Displacement: 8.850tons (standard)
Engines: 80.000shp Westinghouse C1W Nuclear Reactors, 2 shafts
Speed: 59km/h (32knots)
Armaments:
1x2 RIM-2 Terrier SAM,
1x2 RIM-8 Talos SAM
2x2 RAT Launchers,
1x5 533mm Torpedo Tubes
2x3 324mm Torpedo Tubes

Sensors:
SPS-10 - Surface-Search Radar
SPS-12 - Air-Search Radar
SPS-26 - 3D Air-Search Radar
SPS-53 - Surface-Search/Navigational Radar
2x SPQ-5 - Terrier Illumination/tracking radars
2x SPG-49 - Talos Illumination/tracking radars
2x SPW-2 - Talos guidance radars
TACAN - TACtical Air Navigation System

 

[Tzoli]

I will soon finish the preliminary scheme E-3 which seems the first to show the SPS-32/33 radar sets.
Question: do I require the SPS-26 3D Air Search Radar?
What about the SPS-10 Surface and SPS-12 Surface/air search radars?

 

[Firefinder]

I will soon finish the preliminary scheme E-3 which seems the first to show the SPS-32/33 radar sets.
Question: do I require the SPS-26 3D Air Search Radar?
What about the SPS-10 Surface and SPS-12 Surface/air search radars?

I suggest you look up the Long Beach Launch fit out for that.

 

[Tzoli]

Not really helps.
The sensor suite at commissioning in 1961:
4x SPS-32
2x SPG-49 / SPW-2
4x SPG-55
SQS-23

In 1963 added:
4x SPS-33
SPS-10

In 1968 added:
SPS-12

In 1979 removed:
2x SPG-49 / SPW-2

In 1983 added:
SPS-48C
SPS-49
SPS-67
4x SPG-55D replacing the SPG-55
SQQ-23
4x SPS-32/33 removed

In 1985 added:
SLQ-25
SLQ-32

 

[Tzoli]

Scheme A-6 in my interpretation:

Long Beach Preliminary Scheme A-6 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had these characteristics:
Dimensions: 176,78 (pp) 182,88m (oa) x 17,98 x 6,49m
Displacement: 9.170tons (standard) 9.920tons (full load)
Engines: 80.000shp Westinghouse C1W Nuclear Reactors, 2 shafts
Speed: 59km/h (32knots)
Armaments:
2x1 5"/54 (127mm) Mark 18 Guns,
1x2 RIM-2 Terrier SAM,
1x2 RAT Launchers,
2x3 324mm Torpedo Tubes

Sensors:
SPS-10 - Surface-Search Radar
SPS-12 - Air-Search Radar
SPS-26 - 3D Air-Search Radar
SPS-53 - Surface-Search/Navigational Radar
2x SPQ-5 - Terrier Illumination/tracking radars
TACAN - TACtical Air Navigation System

 

[isayyo2]

Very austere looking @Tzoli. Much more like a Destroyer Leader/Frigate than a true Cruiser.

 

[Tzoli]

It is described in the first post attachment the first designs were "Frigates" so Destroyers or in USN practice Destroyer Leaders.... as DL stood for that....
Scheme D-1 will be a Destroyer too but much better looking appropriate for the USN, but E-3 will be the first cruiser, expect it by thursday.

 

[Tzoli]

Next is Scheme D-1 which seems to be the last Destroyer sized variant:

Long Beach Preliminary Scheme D-1 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had these characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, based on the scaling of the drawing: 170,5 (wl) 177,4m (oa) x 17,5m
Displacement: Unknown
Engines: 80.000shp Westinghouse C1W Nuclear Reactors, 2 shafts
Speed: 59km/h (32knots)
Armaments:
2x1 5"/54 (127mm) Mark 18 Guns,
2x2 RIM-2 Terrier SAM,
1x2 RAT Launchers,
2x3 324mm Torpedo Tubes

Sensors:
SPS-10 - Surface-Search Radar
SPS-12 - Surveillance radar
SPS-26 - 3D Air-Search Radar
SPS-53 - Surface-Search/Navigational Radar
4x SPQ-5 - Terrier Illumination/tracking radars
2x Mark 56 - Gun Fire Control System
TACAN - TACtical Air Navigation System

 

[Tzoli]

Question regarding the placement of the SPS-32 / 33 sets:
Which seems to be a better placement? The square arrangement eg on the Long Beach and Enterprise where each pair of sets are on the parallel and perpendicular faces or an octoganal arrangement where the SPS-32 are on the perpendicular and parallel faces and the SPS-33 on the diagonal faces?

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Question regarding the placement of the SPS-32 / 33 sets:
Which seems to be a better placement? The square arrangement eg on the Long Beach and Enterprise where each pair of sets are on the parallel and perpendicular faces or an octoganal arrangement where the SPS-32 are on the perpendicular and parallel faces and the SPS-33 on the diagonal faces?

I suggest using the placement of the designs in question. If the sketch has diagonal SPS-33 faces (or if there is no sketch, if the the design was drawn up around the same time as others with diagonal faces) then use diagonal faces.

 

[TomS]

Question regarding the placement of the SPS-32 / 33 sets:
Which seems to be a better placement? The square arrangement eg on the Long Beach and Enterprise where each pair of sets are on the parallel and perpendicular faces or an octoganal arrangement where the SPS-32 are on the perpendicular and parallel faces and the SPS-33 on the diagonal faces?

I suspect that there is a reason SCANFAR put the antennas for both SPS-32 and SPS-33 in the same planes. Passing targets from search to track sets was hard enough. Doing it without a 1:1 relationship between the antenna scan areas would be harder. Why complicate things?

 

[Tzoli]

I know how to place them that isn't the question, my question targeted the efficiency or the difference in efficiency between the two kinds of placement

 

[Yellow Palace]

From a ship arrangement and a system architecture point of view, having the search and track arrays in the same plane would make life much easier. You'd need a pretty compelling reason not to do so, and I can't really see what that reason might be.

 

[Tzoli]

And now the first true nuclear crusier preliminary design, Scheme E-3:

Long Beach Preliminary Scheme E-3 by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had these characteristics:
Dimensions: 202,4 (pp) 210,0m (oa) x 20,94 x 6,74m
Displacement: 12.450ton (Standard), 13.490tons (Full load)
Engines: 80.000shp Westinghouse C1W Nuclear Reactors, 2 shafts
Speed: 59km/h (32knots)
Armaments:
2x2 RIM-2 Terrier SAM,
1x2 RIM-8 Talos SAM,
1x2 RAT Launchers,
2x3 324mm Torpedo Tubes

Sensors:
4x SPS-32 - Air-Search Radar
4x SPS-33 - Height Finder Radar
1x SPS-53 - Surface-Search/Navigational Radar
4x SPQ-5 - Terrier Illumination/tracking radars
2x SPG-49 - Talos Illumination/tracking radars
2x SPW-2 - Talos guidance radars
4x Illuminator Radars (I've chosen SPG-51 like ones)
1x Radio Star Tracker Dome containing a Transit satellite navigation receiver antenna (Early version of the Global Positioning System)

 

[TomS]

I feel like there are too many radars here.

4x SPQ-5 - Terrier Illumination/tracking radars
2x SPG-49 - Talos Illumination/tracking radars
2x SPW-2 - Talos guidance radars
4x Illuminator Radars (I've chosen SPG-51)
1x TACAN - TACtical Air Navigation System
1x Radio Star Tracker Dome containing a Transit satellite navigation receiver antenna (Early version of the Global Positioning System)

Those four extra illuminators that you have modeled with SPG-51 don't serve any purpose I can see. There's nothing for them to control that doesn't already have another associated radar.

 

[Tzoli]

I feel like there are too many radars here.

4x SPQ-5 - Terrier Illumination/tracking radars
2x SPG-49 - Talos Illumination/tracking radars
2x SPW-2 - Talos guidance radars
4x Illuminator Radars (I've chosen SPG-51)
1x TACAN - TACtical Air Navigation System
1x Radio Star Tracker Dome containing a Transit satellite navigation receiver antenna (Early version of the Global Positioning
Those four extra illuminators that you have modeled with SPG-51 don't serve any purpose I can see. There's nothing for them to control that doesn't already have another associated radar.

Yet they are on the official sketch drawing and subsequent sketches. They are told to be CW illuminators and yes, no associated weapon systems for them to control.