BAC TSR2

I'd love to see what this could do with a couple of Olympus 593's in place of the Mk 320's
 
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ciTlr3KBdJA


Sorry I am unsure how to properly link YouTube videos here.

But this was a good video that popped up in my feed. 2 points that I didn't know that came up in the video.

1) there was a lot of cross polonation between the tsr2 and f111 when it came to the ground turran computer and a lot of the tsr computer ended up in the f111

2) the tsr was no were near completion and properly wouldn't have been ready for production until 1970 at the earliest. There was pretty severe buffering and landing gear issues that hadn't been fixed by cancelation, but more importantly both the computer program and the engines were in such bad shape that when the program was canceled the air ministry had zero idea when the plane would possibly be ready and based on other programs (namely the f111) it probably wouldn't have been until 1970 at lest before the engines and computer was in a condition that production could start and at that point you have to wonder just how much this plane would have cost at that point.
 
I still do not understand why these planes were considered competitors. From my undestanding the TSR2 was a fast recon/interceptor type aircraft like the Mig-25, while the F-111 was a supersonic bomber/strike aircraft, like the Su-24 and 34. I guess they had some capability to do each others' jobs, but it feels to me they were very much not replacements.
 
Elysium said:
I still do not understand why these planes were considered competitors. From my undestanding the TSR2 was a fast recon/interceptor type aircraft like the Mig-25, while the F-111 was a supersonic bomber/strike aircraft, like the Su-24 and 34. I guess they had some capability to do each others' jobs, but it feels to me they were very much not replacements.
Click to expand...

You're massively wrong...

TSR - Tactical Strike Reconaissance (Strike in UK nomenclature at the time was specifically nuclear)

No air to air role whatsoever. Closest F-111 variant in practice to TSR2 was FB-111.
 
Last edited:
timmymagic said:
You're massively wrong...

TSR - Tactical Strike Reconaissance (Strike in UK nomenclature at the time was specifically nuclear)

No air to air role whatsoever. Closes F-111 variant in practice to TSR2 was FB-111.
Click to expand...
I may be massively ignorant about it, but just taking a general look at the aircraft, it feels like a supersonic strike plane, with turbojets, relatively small delta wings, designed around the doctrine of avoiding air defenses via speed, something that fell increasingly out of favor by the 80s and later. It seems the general concept of a strike aircraft or (fighter-bomber) has proven itself in modern conflicts, but the supersonic strike has not. The F-111 was a prolific tank killer in the Gulf War and later middle eastern conflicts, and the Su-34 has similarly seen a lot of use. Most of these aircraft fly their missions subsonic, and are either expected to operate with no anti-air threats, or with SEAD performed by other means.
 
Elysium said:
Most of these aircraft fly their missions subsonic, and are either expected to operate with no anti-air threats, or with SEAD performed by other means.
Click to expand...

Which wasn't the case in the Cold War...which is what both F-111 and TSR.2 were designed for.

F-111 was more easily adaptable to other tasks, particularly conventional....but it was retired very quickly after the end of the Cold War...1996 was the last strike variants in USAF Tac Air, SAC got rid of FB-111 in 1991....
 
Elysium said:
I still do not understand why these planes were considered competitors. From my undestanding the TSR2 was a fast recon/interceptor type aircraft like the Mig-25, while the F-111 was a supersonic bomber/strike aircraft, like the Su-24 and 34. I guess they had some capability to do each others' jobs, but it feels to me they were very much not replacements.
Click to expand...
Consdering the f-111 boming requirement matches the tsr-2 almost exactly i would say yes they were competitors. The f-111 just had the misfortune of having a navy interception mission taked on.
 
Cjc said:
but more importantly both the computer program
Click to expand...
I'm assuming you mean the 'sysem' as a whole. The computer worked. It was actually US made and came from the North American Vigilante.
 
timmymagic said:
I'm assuming you mean the 'sysem' as a whole. The computer worked. It was actually US made and came from the North American Vigilante.
Click to expand...
It's in the video, but there was a lot more cross work on with these computers then I expected, and a lot of the computer systems on the tsr 2 ended up in the f-111.
 
timmymagic said:
You're massively wrong...

TSR - Tactical Strike Reconaissance (Strike in UK nomenclature at the time was specifically nuclear)

No air to air role whatsoever. Closest F-111 variant in practice to TSR2 was FB-111.
Click to expand...
I watched the linked video, and it kind of matched my recollections - the idea of dealing with enemy air defense via low-altitude supersonic dash with terrain following took until the late 70s and mid 80s to manifest as a real capability - not only in the F-111 but the B-1. By the time, more effective methods, such as EW, stealth and anti radiation missiles have also entered service. Not to mention the Soviets figured out how to deal with low-altitude threats in the form of those mast-mounted radars that allowed the system to shoot down targets flying just above the treetops. Considering the enormous strain on pilots and other problems with low-altitude flight, it was decided that sort of flying is more suited to cruise missiles anyway, which also advanced massively by the 80s.
So really, even in the ideal world, the time window between the TSR-2s entry to service, and the time by which it became conceptually outdated (replaced by things liket the Tornado) is maybe half a decade?
 
I always grouped the TSR2, CF-105 Arrow and the XB-70 as great aircraft to be cancelled due to political and changed requirements .... and they happened to be painted white in colour .....

By the time TSR2 was cancelled, other than technical issues, think the British was facing economic difficulties, so continuing development would be a strain on the coffers .... so buying an off-the-shelf solution looked attractive ....
 
timmymagic said:
F-111 was undertaking combat missions in North Vietnam in 1968...
Click to expand...
Not hugely well. Took until the F-111D to get the strike systems working almost right, and even then the Mark 2 systems weren't particularly reliable.

F-111s weren't solid till the -F model. (E model was simplified -D stuff, but was reliable)
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom