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Avro 730 and other OR.330 Reconnaissance/Bomber designs

overscan (PaulMM)

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From "Were the Wrights Right?" by B R A Burns in Air International December 1983

The Avro design is the late 730 design, the other two designs were labelled as Handley Page and Vickers, but transposed (the Handley Page design is known from Secret Projects: Jet Bombers). The third design doesn't match the Vickers design from there however.
 

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Archibald

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Hello!

The vickers design you mention is also in B.S.P (bombers) but not in the Avro 730 chapter... it is on the apendix. It seems it was a private venture, and performances are below the specs of the 730...
I have to check
Hmmm I'm fascinated by the English Electric P.10. This "ramjet wing" was very impressive...

Pics of the vickers project (or it's siblimg, the two are very similar)
 

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Akaikaze

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Does anyone know of any pictures of the Avro 730 bomber? No, I'm not talking about drawings or models. The actual aircraft. Several sources state the construction on the first machine was well underway when the axe fell and the body was cut up and used as scrap bins. But before it was hacked to pieces, did anyone photograph it? I would love to see just how far it was along... :p
It took me ten years to find out just what it looked like and I have a great interest in it's history, but this is one item missing from my research...
Anyone?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

English Electric P.10 patent.
 

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Archibald

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Akaikaze said:
Does anyone know of any pictures of the Avro 730 bomber? No, I'm not talking about drawings or models. The actual aircraft. Several sources state the construction on the first machine was well underway when the axe fell and the body was cut up and used as scrap bins. But before it was hacked to pieces, did anyone photograph it? I would love to see just how far it was along... :p
It took me ten years to find out just what it looked like and I have a great interest in it's history, but this is one item missing from my research...
Anyone?

I'm backing your request!

Is there any photos of the sole Avro 730 ever build ? ???

Maybe there's no photos at all because the plane was highly secret, it represented the most advanced technology in GB (and maybe in the world)
 

Archibald

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ingenious.org.uk/media/4.0_SAC/webimages/1023/7/10237469_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ingenious.org.uk/See/Transport/Aeronautics/%3FpageNo%3D14%26s%3DS1%26viewby%3Dimages%26&h=104&w=128&sz=4&hl=fr&start=24&tbnid=hi9LqBQFhhNckM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAvro-730%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN

Found that on the web...
 

TinWing

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Archibald said:
Is there any photos of the sole Avro 730 ever build ? ???

Maybe there's no photos at all because the plane was highly secret, it represented the most advanced technology in GB (and maybe in the world)

It is odd that that no photos of the partially complete Avro 730 have come to light?

I assume that the first Avro 730 prototype was at least partially complete because there is a reference to the stainless steel fuselage being cut into sections, which were turned into large rubbish bins for scrap metal.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

From Tony Buttler

Someone on the forum was asking about photos of the Avro 730 prototype. I am
pretty sure that photographs would have been taken of the progress being
made for such an important aircraft, but the work would have been very
secret and so prints would probably only have been sent to the Ministry. You
may know that in the late 1950s, after the 730 had been cancelled, the Avro
photographic archive, will all of its negatives, was destroyed in a fire.
That would have included any 730 images, and I am pretty certain after that
only the odd print in the hands of the Air Staff or a designer might have
survived.

British Ministry files, after they are finished with by their creators, are
passed into store. Then, after a certain time period, they a weeded out. The
best are held back to go into the National Archives and the rest are
destroyed. I think I have been through all of the 730 files held at Kew and
I have never come across any photographs of the prototype. It seems to me
that the chance of any original prints now turning up is very very small
indeed. There are prints around of the project model made for the original
proposal, but again no company pictures have been seen for a model of the
730 in the form it was to be built.
 

Archibald

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Thank you Overscan (and, tant qu'on y est, thanks Mr Buttler for all the details and its marvellous books. ;) )

I suppose this damned fire also explain why there's no detail on Avro 732 (and Supersonic Vulcan :mad: )
Damned fire!!!
 

smurf

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

This may be the nearest we shall get (from Avro by Harry Holmes) though IIRC there were some similar ones in colour in Air Enthusiast some years ago.
 

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borovik

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Jan Velek said:
Vickers OR.330.
from: V.Nemecek "Vojenska letadla" Vol.5
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Handley-Page HP.100
Vickers R.156T
English Electric P.10
Avro 730 (2 variants)
Short PD.12
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Shorts project, from Chris Gibson's Skomer website
 

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lark

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

and:

Saro P.188-1
P.188-2

mentioned in Tony Buttler's magnificient article:

AVRO 730 : Britain's still-born spy-plane : Air Pictorial. March 2002
 

mrdj

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Avro 730

I seem to recall reading that the Avro 730 prototype was being built at the time of cancellation. How far along was the construction, and are there any pictures of the airframe? Thank you for any help you can provide.

DJM
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Avro 730

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,905.0.html

See Tony Buttler's reply...
 

JohnR

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Re: Avro 730

Apparently its fuselage was cut up into sections and used as scrap metal bins!!!!
 

zebedee

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Re: Avro 730

Lets look at the problem another way...

Does anyone have pics of the rubbish bins...?

Zeb
 

mrdj

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Re: Avro 730

I missed the earlier reply, thank you for the link.

That answers the pictures portion, are there any indications of how far along the project was? Was the fuselage complete, or wings?

DJM
 

Skybolt

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Miles! Wasn't Miles already part of Hadley-Page ?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

According to Project Cancelled, Miles was liquidated in 1947, certain programs and assets were transferred to Handley Page becoming HP Reading, then in 1951 a new company (F.G. Miles) was formed which became Britten Norman in 1964, went into receivership in 1972 and transferred aircraft interest to Fairey Group in 1973.
 

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

I didn't think that Vicker's Wild Goose/Swallow was refined by then to become a submission - The unmanned wild goose tests were conducted in 1955 ;OR.330 was 1954?

Vickers conducted a lot of investigation into VG around 1956, and considered it for the TSR.2. The design team for Vicker's TSR.2 specification (Type 571) were headed up by Supermarine people, so favored the blown flaps they have developed on the Scimitar to unproven VG. Vicker's first VG design was the Type 581 in about 1959.


I do have real question about the two aircraft banded about for Vicker's OR330 submission.

The slender delta - called the SP4, Type 799, or R.156T in various sources - seems a far more likely contender for the time. It shares the lack of windscreen with the Avro 730 and its design themes can be clearly seen in the later Vickers-Supermarine Type 559 interceptor. The trapezoid winged aircraft looks a lot more modern. It is smaller than OR.330 submissions and does not have any lineage with any other Vickers Aircraft -most of Vicker's aircraft seem to have swept wings? It also appears to have a cockpit for 1 - which still would not be feasible for a bomber?

Any thoughts?
 

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Barrington Bond

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Re: Avro 730

Flight 13 September 1957.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

UK P10 patents:

813692, 829873, 844847, 846382, 854859, 899625, 906499, 910350 and 965371.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

more
 

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Michel Van

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Wat the Pilot move up and Down with seat !? :eek:

up position seem for Take of and Landing
down position for cruse to target, or Wat ?

and Wat happen if seat is stuck in the middle wen hydraulic fail ? ::)

is looks cool idea in first place
but second look only a nuts idea
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

From Stafford
 

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Barrington Bond

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Re: Avro 730

Wind tunnel model in the Science Museum, Kensington, London.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: OR.330 Bomber Projects

Merged topics - added photos of English Electric P.10 model from Stafford.
 

Pirate Pete

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Avro 730

My apologies if this has been covered already, but.....

Was a name allocated to the Avro 730 "Recon" Bomber????
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Avro 730

Not that I'm aware of. Just so that everyone knows what we're talking about, the Avro 730 was a supersonic stainless steel high-flying reconnaissance aircraft conceived to specification number R.156T (OR.330). Enclosed is a 3-view from the web (if this topic duplicates some other thread, sorry about that).
 

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Zoo Tycoon

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Re: Avro 730

When I was working with/at Woodford in the late 1990's I was very interested in the question of how far along did the 730 progress. Hence I sought out and talked to a number of employees from the period in the Avro club/Avro heritage, including a former draughtsman who had been drawing the 730 center fuse. The unanimous reply came back that no bits of flying prototype were built or even came close to being built. At the time of cancellation many elements of the basic detail design were still experiencing considerable change as a result of optimisation in line with a significant weight challenges. One estimated that at the time of cancellation approx 150 engineers (Woodford/Chad and London) were full time with quite a considerable ramp up underway.
A full size wooden mock up was reported at Woodford South Site.
Also another recalled seeing large volume vacuum brazing furnaces being installed in Chadderton together with large stainless steel honeycomb compound both curved/barrel generic sections (Chadderton Manf, Woodford South Site AC test)
None could recall actually seeing the "730 scrap bins" but most seem to have heard the story.

I would really like to known more about this project but most of the period detail work seems to have been lost in the late 1970's early 80's due to the Chadderton site archivist attitude towards classified information.
 

royabulgaf

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Also another recalled seeing large volume vacuum brazing furnaces being installed in Chadderton together with large stainless steel honeycomb compound both curved/barrel generic sections (Chadderton Manf, Woodford South Site AC test)
None could recall actually seeing the "730 scrap bins" but most seem to have heard the story.

Perhaps those honeycomb sections are where the urban legend started.
 

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As research aircraft and aerodynamical testbed for the 730 the Type 731
was designed by Avro, powered by Bristol Orpheus or Rolls Royce RB.108 engines
 

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Triton

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Model of English Electric P.10 on display at RAF Museum Cosford.

Source:
http://www.warbirdsnews.com/avaition-museum-news/raf-museum-cosford-exhibits-models-cancelled-concept-aircraft.html#more-5849
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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English Electric P.10 model at RAF Museum Cosford, 2013. Photos by forum member Hobbes.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Avro 730 model at RAF Museum Cosford, 2013. Photos by forum member Hobbes.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Avro 730 at RAF Museum Cosford, 2013. Photos by forum member Hobbes.
 

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pedrospe

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Great models,thanks Paul for sharing this beautiful images.


best regards


Pedro
 

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Although we havbe seen a few mentions of the possiblility of completed Avro 730 sections, was there any photographic evidence of the mock up that was reported at Chadderton. Similarly there was either a full or at least partial mock up of the HP.100 completed, dependant on which sources you believe. is there any photos of this around?
 
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