Taildog / SRAAM / ASRAAM family

What are the odds of an air-launched version of Sea Ceptor being developed?
 
NMaude said:
What are the odds of an air-launched version of Sea Ceptor being developed?
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Asraam Block 6 (also known as CSP - Capability Sustainment Programme) includes a technology refresh re-using CAMM (Ceptor) components.

It's unlikely that MBDA will sell an RF seeker version of ASRAAM (or indeed an IR version of Land/Sea Ceptor). They're more likely to focus on other projects like the ASRAAM lookalike ground launched anti-armour weapon (and even then its regretably, increasingly unlikely to see the light of day). I have wondered if a CAMM-ER might arrive on aircraft as it would make a very good medium range BVR between ASRAAM and Meteor in the MBDA line up (easily outclass AMRAAM C's in range), but it is 30cm longer than Amraam so could cause an issue with conformal carry on some platforms, does look doable on Typhoon though....ITAR free however...which for sales, particularly in the Gulf, is increasingly a big thing.

Suspect MBDA's main focus for their future weapons (the increased calibre and drop launched smaller concepts for Tempest and FCAS) will be on Dual-Mode seekers to deal with LO threats more effectively. They've said as much at trade shows.
 
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I was wondering if anyone knew or could point me to a source. How did the missile the UK adopted differ from the 80s multinational, if it did so at all? I’ve only ever seen the Dummy missiles on the EAP which look more or less the same to me.


Seems to imply some prototypes where built. If the eastern block didn’t fall this probably would be the main western missile.
 
Here's an advert for the Taildog missile. It comes from British Defence Equipment Catalogue - Third Edition - October 1970

Edit: Only half the image appears to be there. Here's an Imgur link until I can workout how to get the image to upload properly (images often seem to get stuck at 100% uploading for me): https://i.imgur.com/rUefqaY.png
Edit 2: Looks like the upload somehow fixed itself
 

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Flame2512 said:
Here's an advert for the Taildog missile. It comes from British Defence Equipment Catalogue - Third Edition - October 1970

Edit: Only half the image appears to be there. Here's an Imgur link until I can workout how to get the image to upload properly (images often seem to get stuck at 100% uploading for me): https://i.imgur.com/rUefqaY.png
Edit 2: Looks like the upload somehow fixed itself
Click to expand...

If you use a mobile sometimes the first pic in a post only partly downloads - this is a known bug. Other than that, not seen a problem, though if your image is very high resolution it stops at 100% a while as it calculates the thumbnail.
 
This thread has stirred a deep and distant memory. I recall getting chased out of a hanger at Brawdy and seeing a "foreign"' (RAF but not one Brawdy's), Hunter with what looked like twin drainpipes on the outboard pylons. I found out afterwards it was a trials aircraft for something called "Taildog". I reckon it must have been around 1977/78.
 
read more and pic here
www.google.com

Two air-to-air missiles that time forgot: Taildog & Tiamat

Hughes JB-3/M-X750 Tiamat (1945) August 6 1945 is an infamous day in history, as it was the date that a USAAF B-29 dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. The very same day marked another significant …
www.google.com www.google.com
 

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Thought I'd have a go at updating the ASRAAM family tree...since the last one was in 2008 and there have been some developments since then.

Let me know what you think, any errors, missing info, incorrect dates etc. No copyright on it, feel free to tear it to bits...
 

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timmymagic said:
Thought I'd have a go at updating the ASRAAM family tree...since the last one was in 2008 and there have been some developments since then.

Let me know what you think, any errors, missing info, incorrect dates etc. No copyright on it, feel free to tear it to bits...
Click to expand...

Going to update this shortly to straighten some of the photos out, thinking of adding the image of the E/O Land Indirect Fires proposal alongside the Brimstone seeker headed variant, probably some minor tweaks on text formatting.

Does anyone have any info or views on the dates for SRARM and SHIELD? Searched high and low and I've struggled to get any better than the current guesstimates....grateful for anyones thoughts...
 
timmymagic said:
timmymagic said:
Thought I'd have a go at updating the ASRAAM family tree...since the last one was in 2008 and there have been some developments since then.

Let me know what you think, any errors, missing info, incorrect dates etc. No copyright on it, feel free to tear it to bits...
Click to expand...

Going to update this shortly to straighten some of the photos out, thinking of adding the image of the E/O Land Indirect Fires proposal alongside the Brimstone seeker headed variant, probably some minor tweaks on text formatting.

Does anyone have any info or views on the dates for SRARM and SHIELD? Searched high and low and I've struggled to get any better than the current guesstimates....grateful for anyones thoughts...
Click to expand...

Have you seen this thread? It seems to put the beginning of SHIELD in the Hawker-Siddeley Dynamics era (pre-1977):


It appears to contain all the info on SHIELD that is in BST4.
 
TomS said:
Have you seen this thread? It seems to put the beginning of SHIELD in the Hawker-Siddeley Dynamics era (pre-1977):

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hawker-siddeley-dynamics-shield.5010/
It appears to contain all the info on SHIELD that is in BST4.
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Yes had a look at that, but I completely and utterly missed the Hawker Siddeley reference though...thanks for that.

By the sounds of it it started under HSD but potentially carried into British Aerospace's era, but definitely was ended pre-Falklands. I'll adjust the timeline from 78-80 to an earlier start date within HSD's era, closer to the SRAAM inception date, it will still be guestimate though, unless we can find some clear dates (same for SRARM unfortunately, all I can see is a Nat Archives reference in 1982, and even then I'm not 100% that its the same thing), pickings are fairly thin on it. Really fascinating concept though, in hindsight it looks like it could have been a real winner.

As an aside I wonder if the MONTANA concept had any bearing on the Ferranti ADAD?
 
timmymagic said:
Does anyone have any info or views on the dates for SRARM and SHIELD?
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I was just thumbing through Bill Gunston's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft Armament and found an entry for SRARM as a seven-nation (US, UK, Germany, Italy, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium) program to consider a smaller ARM to replace/improve upon Sidearm. This was a 15-month study beginning in September 1985, so that's a bit later than your chart. But I'm not sure if it's necessarily the same program; it could just be a recycling of the obvious acronym.

Also, I see in Jane's Air-Launched Weapons a mention of an ASRAAM derivative for the Project Horizon frigate Inner Layer Missile System called NM21 with "an additional boost motor and TVC assembly for vertical launch." Obviously, this evolved into CAMM, but it sounds like NM21 had the IIR seeker rather than active radar. This was 1998.
 
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SRARM is mentioned a few other places in the 1986-1990 timeframe (apparently it was a NATO Armaments Cooperation project), but again this might be more of a generic term than a specific missile. It seems to have been done at the level of a feasibility study, rather than more detailed hardware. None of these links talk about technical issues, but they might be useful finding aids for further research.

UK involvement:

USAF interest:
books.google.com

Department of Defense appropriations for 1987

books.google.com

German Archives:
 
TomS said:
SRARM is mentioned a few other places in the 1986-1990 timeframe (apparently it was a NATO Armaments Cooperation project), but again this might be more of a generic term than a specific missile. It seems to have been done at the level of a feasibility study, rather than more detailed hardware. None of these links talk about technical issues, but they might be useful finding aids for further research.

UK involvement:

USAF interest:
books.google.com

Department of Defense appropriations for 1987

books.google.com

German Archives:
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Sorry missed this...many thanks, I'll do some digging see if I can turn anything up.

I'll update the timeline chart when I get some free time.
 
aonestudio said:
www.thinkdefence.co.uk

Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile (ASRAAM) - Think Defence

The AIM-132 ASRAAM is a high-speed, highly manoeuvrable, heat-seeking, air-to-air missile.
www.thinkdefence.co.uk www.thinkdefence.co.uk
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TD even included my Asraam history chart in the article...

In other news it appears that Asraam Block VI went operational with the RAF on 01/04/22

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519986431430737920
View: https://twitter.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1519986431430737920?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1519986431430737920%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
 
Finally got around to updating it...thanks to TomS for providing some more detail around dates and NM21.

As usual no copyright, do with it as you will, feel free to tear to bits, let me know of any thoughts/ any omissions in particular around dates or better images..

Update is a little general tidying, changed a couple of images (one was duplicated, so looked better without), added NM21, lengthened the date for SRARM pending any exact information as this appears to be our best guess at present, moved SHIELD into the HSD era as well. Opted not to include the second Future Land Indirect Fires Concept E/O homing head variant as felt like overkill. Apart from firming up some dates for the earlier stuff would like to get a better image for CAMM-ER and definitive images for Blk.6, P3I and NM21 (although I suspect for the latter 2 none actually exist).

https://imgur.com/4EAObHp
View: https://imgur.com/4EAObHp
 
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Wyvern said:
What exactly is the FLIS system, may I ask?
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Do you mean Future Land Indirect Fires? (FLIF I guess...)

If so it is/was a concept shown to the British Army of a missile system taking elements from CAMM and Brimstone to meet a requirement. It's not a CAMM with Brimstone head though. It's actually the same calibre as Brimstone (178mm) rather than the smaller calibre of CAMM (166mm) to enable easy integration of the Brimstone 2 or 3 seeker head.

Brief write up here...
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/mbda-future-land-indirect-fires

Additional imagery here....from clockwise top left; Boxer launcher, E/O seeker head variant, Dual Mode Brimstone seeker head variant....and a green painted (i.e. ground launched) Meteor that no-one has ever really gotten any details on...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1042453708011921408
View: https://twitter.com/bymbda/status/1042453708011921408?lang=en-GB


The work is ongoing (there was an industry/ministry conference a couple of weeks ago) but its not clear if its been subsumed into the Battlegroup Organic Anti Armour (BGOAA) work. Hopefully, the Ukraine war has shown the need for increased precision strike range.
 
Jason Dykstra (Wyvern) said:
Quite an interesting proposal that I've never heard of. Hopefully it has not been cancelled. That Meteor is quite interesting though, maybe a tentative SAM?
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I'm holding out hope, but I suspect its in vain. The BGOAA programme is more likely to use standard Brimstone 3, as will the Polish tank destroyer. It could be interesting post Ukraine if a longer ranged option is considered though as greater range is crucial (makes me wonder if the UK's JAGM purchase for Apache E might get reconsidered as well...but MoD/HMT are not renowned for their sanity...).

As for green painted Meteor....no-one asked for details at the time, and its not been seen since so I suspect its disappeared into the ether...
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Length: 2.724m
Diameter: 165mm
Speed: Mach 3

IMI Summerfield produced the solid motor with control actuation by Sperry Gyroscope.

Used a lightweight twin-tube launcher whose adaptor shoe housed the fire control system. The missile tube had nose doors, which opened during firing then closed immediately to reduce drag.

Off boresight capability of 90 degrees.
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I wonder how they managed that 90 degree off boresight capability, agile was developed around the same time and from what I can find only managed 45 degrees, and I don't think a >90 degree missile came together until after 2000.
 
Cjc said:
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Length: 2.724m
Diameter: 165mm
Speed: Mach 3

IMI Summerfield produced the solid motor with control actuation by Sperry Gyroscope.

Used a lightweight twin-tube launcher whose adaptor shoe housed the fire control system. The missile tube had nose doors, which opened during firing then closed immediately to reduce drag.

Off boresight capability of 90 degrees.
Click to expand...
I wonder how they managed that 90 degree off boresight capability, agile was developed around the same time and from what I can find only managed 45 degrees, and I don't think a >90 degree missile came together until after 2000.
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Please consider reading the topic on Agile before making baseless statements.

The Agile was equipped with a sophisticated, high tech (at the time), Gallium-arsenide infrared band seeker by Hughes. The seeker head had a large off-boresight capability (0 to +/- 165 degrees practical) lock-on capability. The pilot targeted it by using a Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS). A solid-state missile rocket engine was used to provide the go power. Control was achieved by thrust vectoring giving it superior turning capability over the Sidewinder. This combination of greatly improved IR sensor, large off-boresight acquisition and thrust vectoring control would allow Agile to be fired at targets which were not directly ahead•thus making it far easier to achieve a firing position.
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Making an IR seeker with 90 degree off boresight capability is a trivial engineering ask solvable in 1950. But what use is it? The challenge is how the pilot can designate a target at 90 degrees off boresight.

Most radars prior to AN/APG-65 scanned to only 60 degrees at most, so the radar can't help you locate a target that wide. The HUD covers only a narrow forward view.

The breakthrough allowing high off-boresight capability IR AAMs was the HMS, which only became somewhat practical in the late 1960s.

The USAF passed on the first generation HMS technology and stuck with AIM-9L while investing heavily on AMRAAM (kill from a distance, avoid the close fight) and developing more advanced HMD and, eventually, advanced high off boresight weapons.

The USSR decided to implement the basic HMS and combined it with a reasonably high off-boresight missile, the R-73. The US could have had the same capability in service in 1975 on the F-15 had it been deemed a priority.
 
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NMaude said:
overscan (PaulMM) said:
the R-73. The US could have had the same capability in service in 1975 on the F-15 had it been deemed a priority.
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Weren't there some F-4s equipped with a basic HMS in the late 70s?
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About 500 navy/marine F-4 had VTAS. Interestingly I also have seen references to an early DASH helmet used on the F-14 in some capacity but I can’t find much.

During the 70s early 80s the Elbit Systems and Protection Inc. developed one of the first type of operational Helmet Mounted Displays (HMD's) based on a Gentex PRK-37 shell. This type of helmet was used operationally in the late 70s early 80s with the AIM-9L missile on the US NAVY F-14's and MARINES Corps F-4's to function as a helmet mounted targeting system between the pilot and the aircraft weapons system.

This helmet was intended to replace the VTAS and it utilises a magnetic tracker instead of the VTAS/IHADSS IR tracking nodules. This very first DASH helmet and the technology and lessons learned from this type of helmet mounted display system paved the way for such current fleet operational helmets like the US Air Force and Navy's JHMCS , TopSight , Agile Eye and the Israeli Air Force DASH.
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timmymagic said:
I'm holding out hope, but I suspect its in vain.
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Turns out I was wrong....MBDA are still pushing it for the UK military.

Now called Land Precision Strike as a concept.. (I'll post the Brimstone related news from DVD and the press release on that thread, although its clear that LPS includes some Brimstone/Spear technology in the seeker head amongst other things).

www.mbda-systems.com

Land Precision Strike | Innovation | MBDA

Land Precision Strike Innovation PRECISION SURFACE ATTACK FOR THE DIVISIONAL BATTLE | Land Precision Strike will rapidly engage relocatable high value targets in warfighting and lower intensity operations | Precise, low collateral effect against moving, relocatable, fleeting high value and high...
www.mbda-systems.com www.mbda-systems.com

MBDA Press Release Text

MBDA unveils Land Precision Fires Family

MBDA’s new surface-to-surface fires capabilities for the British Army are being showcased for the first time at Defence Vehicles Dynamics (DVD) 2022.
www.mbda-systems.com www.mbda-systems.com

MBDA’s new surface-to-surface fires capabilities for the British Army are being showcased for the first time at Defence Vehicles Dynamics (DVD) 2022.

MBDA’s ‘Land Precision Fires Family’ comprising Surface-Launched Brimstone and Land Precision Strike (LPS) are weapons that provide precision at layered ranges, operating 24/7 with low collateral effects across a wide range of operational scenarios, from peer conflict to a limited sub threshold operation. They will help commanders to win the deep fight and shape the close fight.

Land Precision Strike​

Land Precision Strike (LPS) responds to the emerging artillery need to defeat high-value targets in the deep battle; targets which may be relocatable and fleeting in nature. So achieving a disproportional operational effect on the adversary.

MBDA is working closely with MOD stakeholders on LPS weapon system concepts that will offer land commanders a step change in capability against armour at range – achieving highly discriminate, highly precise and low collateral effects for both peer and sub-peer conflicts. The plan is to be able to fire the LPS missile from a range of launchers including M270 MLRS, satisfying MOD’s “one platform, many weapons” objective.

Boxer LPS - Previously seen as Future Land Indirect Fires
https://imgur.com/1XnfKBg
View: https://imgur.com/1XnfKBg



MAN based Land Ceptor Launcher based...new...if its compatible with Land Ceptor....its compatible with Sea Ceptor...
tMPrvRz.jpg


M270A2 launcher based...new...Bushmaster variant with what appears to be the Ceptor Common Data Link (CDL) behind.
oSwvslW.jpg


Datasheet - Some interesting detail here...

kT1meRU.jpg


cS7VBcR.jpg

<a href="
https://imgur.com/1XnfKBg
View: https://imgur.com/1XnfKBg
"><img src="
https://imgur.com/1XnfKBg
View: https://i.imgur.com/1XnfKBg.jpg
" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
 
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Bugger....that means I need to change the Asraam history chart again....

I'll put the M270 detail over there as well...

Add in MBDA's proposed JFS-M missile for use in M270/HiMARS, and the UK's desire to increase its M270 holdings by 50-100% that came out today and it looks like its the platform to be involved in for the future, hardly surprising given its war winning success from GW1 onwards.
 

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