Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

Big_Zukini said:
I don't know to whom it may be interesting but 11 F-22 already landed in Israel's Ovda AFB and 12 more are en route and set to pass through RAF Lakenheath.

Maybe escort for bombers, but also possibly desperate to score a kill for once in the F-22's record (that isn't a balloon).
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F-4, MiG-29, or F-14 if they are really lucky. That’s assuming IRAF aerial assets actually get off the ground…
 
So the F-22 was going to have an IRST system installed but it was cancled due to the ending of the Cold War and the budget cuts that followed, what a waste of good technology. And they are bringing it back in podded form.
 
FighterJock said:
So the F-22 was going to have an IRST system installed but it was cancled due to the ending of the Cold War and the budget cuts that followed, what a waste of good technology. And they are bringing it back in podded form.
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Not exactly. The IRST was dropped well before the ATF prototype phase, both to cut costs and address the ballooning weight growth. I believe the sensor development continued for eventual inclusion in the NATF.
 
FighterJock said:
So the F-22 was going to have an IRST system installed but it was cancled due to the ending of the Cold War and the budget cuts that followed, what a waste of good technology. And they are bringing it back in podded form.
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It's same line from F-14D IRST to modern Legions ... and whatever is in that pod(which is probably some variant of legion too). It isn't in, but wasted, it was not.
(+a couple export orders - Korea and UAE come to mind).
 
Ainen said:
and whatever is in that pod(which is probably some variant of legion too).
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That was my guess as well -- the LR-IRST in one pod and a Legion-style datalink in the other to share long-range IR track data with other aircraft. Splitting across two pods is probably desirable because asymmetry is bad for stealth and aerodynamics, and there's no centerline pylon on the F-22 to hang a unified pod on.
 
FighterJock said:
And they are bringing it back in podded form.
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When all the other comparable aircraft feature fully integrated solutions. It has the feeling of a band-aid to keep an aging platform relevant, than truly trying to maximize the potential the aircraft posesses. I cannot fault the USAF, given the small fleet size and less than great availability it's not really relevant anyway. Not with the F-35A serving it strong numbers and the F-47 on the horizon.

Now, at this point the question is, why the pods were even pursued when at this point the task could be handed over to the F-35 or unmanned solutions currently in development. Feeding the F-22 with relevant data collected by these platforms, providing situational awareness and possibly even guidance in accordance to the concept of a fully integrated networked air force.
 
FighterJock said:
So the F-22 was going to have an IRST system installed but it was cancled due to the ending of the Cold War and the budget cuts that followed, what a waste of good technology. And they are bringing it back in podded form.
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They also ditched the side arrays it was supposed to have.
 
EmoBirb said:
When all the other comparable aircraft feature fully integrated solutions. It has the feeling of a band-aid to keep an aging platform relevant, than truly trying to maximize the potential the aircraft posesses. I cannot fault the USAF, given the small fleet size and less than great availability it's not really relevant anyway. Not with the F-35A serving it strong numbers and the F-47 on the horizon.
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LMAO! Okay.
 
Sferrin said:
LMAO! Okay.
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You can laugh, but the F-22 suffered from bad timing to make a significant splash with regards to it's operational deployment. It was technolgically advanced and the first fighter jet of it's kind, but low availability, low fleet size, no exports and limitations with regards to true in-depth modernizations without breaking the bank ultimately make it uneconomical to allocate much money and resources towards it. Resources that are better off going towards the F-35, the F-47, B-21 and the various budget hungry programs the USAF has to fund with what's allocated as their budget. And all of that won't change until the type will ultimately be retired. There won't be a chance to truly make an impact because there is either now conflict that truly requires a stealth air superiority fighter, or there will be such a conflict but then the availability and number of aircraft will prevent it from having much influence.

It's cool on posters and as a desk model, and the engineering is fascinating. But the age ATF was developed for never came. It's the US aviations version of Concorde in that regard.
 
EmoBirb said:
You can laugh, but the F-22 suffered from bad timing to make a significant splash with regards to it's operational deployment. It was technolgically advanced and the first fighter jet of it's kind, but low availability, low fleet size, no exports and limitations with regards to true in-depth modernizations without breaking the bank ultimately make it uneconomical to allocate much money and resources towards it. Resources that are better off going towards the F-35, the F-47, B-21 and the various budget hungry programs the USAF has to fund with what's allocated as their budget. And all of that won't change until the type will ultimately be retired. There won't be a chance to truly make an impact because there is either now conflict that truly requires a stealth air superiority fighter, or there will be such a conflict but then the availability and number of aircraft will prevent it from having much influence.

It's cool on posters and as a desk model, and the engineering is fascinating. But the age ATF was developed for never came. It's the US aviations version of Concorde in that regard.
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The F-22 has done far more combat work than most people realize.
 
quellish said:
The F-22 has done far more combat work than most people realize.
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Of course, it saw several deployments. But it never served as the kind of air superiority fighter which it was developed as. Because the scenario outlined through the ATF program, that required this kind of aircraft, never occured. Nowadays it drops bombs, intercepts and escorts bombers and occasionally shoots at balloons.

That's what I meant when I said it never lived up to it's purpose. And in this day and age, in order to be competitive in it's intended role again, things like integrated IRST or the cheek arrays would have been valuable. And this is coming back to my very first point, which was that throwing a large external payload on a supposedly low observable air superiority fighter seems like a band-aid in order to give it some relevance in near peer and peer scenarios. And at that point one just has to ask why even do that, given that the JSF is the actual advanced workhorse and a successor to the F-22 already being deep into it's development. These things are not relevant for peace time and low intensity conflicts and on the other hand won't have the impact that's required for a near peer or peer conflict. I suppose this will trickle down to the F-35 in the near future, and maybe the F-22 is just the guinea pig.
 
Big_Zukini said:
Once the F-47 makes it into service, there's a case for rapid divestment from F-22. But we're obviously not there yet. Let's say about 15 years away. Give or take.
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The F-35 fleet grows and is seeing constant tweaking and updates. The F-47 might enter service in the early 2030s, yes. And now what do you think could happen in 5-6 years that could not be handled by hundreds of F-35s, supported by everything else in the AF, including the aging F-22s?

The bare minimum to keep the Raptors in good condition and in readiness should on paper be enough. But these programs, which take plenty of funding, seem rather odd for an aircraft that's more or less nearing the end of it's frontline service life. Perhaps the USAF isn't confident in the F-47 timeline and/or it's projected capabilities. Because otherwise investing is a low fleet size, low availability, high operating cost maintenance hog seems paradoxical.

I hope that made it a bit clearer on why I find this all very strange (aside from the obvious thing about having external payloads on a stealth aircraft, payloads not meant to be dropped off).
 
Sferrin said:
They also ditched the side arrays it was supposed to have.
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"The avionic requirements were growing and growing," Mullin explains. "Senior USAF officials met in January 1989 and decided on the avionics cap. At the time, we had paper designs of avionic systems that were over $16 million per ship. The cap sent a shockwave through the program, as much through the Air Force as through the two teams. The infrared search and track system bit the dust and so did a lot of other systems, including the side-looking radar apertures. That limit is probably one of the best things that happened to the program. Avionic growth had gotten out of control before that point. The Air Force solved a lot of problems by putting one simple number on the table."

www.codeonemagazine.com

<title>F-22 Raptor Design Evolution, Part 2 | Code One Magazine</title>

Second part in a two-part series on design evolution of F-22 Raptor in Code One Magazine.
www.codeonemagazine.com
 
EmoBirb said:
Perhaps the USAF isn't confident in the F-47 timeline and/or it's projected capabilities. Because otherwise investing is a low fleet size, low availability, high operating cost maintenance hog seems paradoxical.

I hope that made it a bit clearer on why I find this all very strange (aside from the obvious thing about having external payloads on a stealth aircraft, payloads not meant to be dropped off).
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The F-22 was designed and developed for the European theater. Range is certainly not it´s strongest point. So, if the theater it is expected to be needed in the most shifts from Europe´s mainland to the Pacific, having these external tanks available for the F-22 makes a lot of sense. It´s still a very relevant aircraft in all other aspects.
I´m pretty sure the low-drag tanks will be able to be dropped in case they would need to be (in a WVR fight), but one wants to avoid having to do so.
 
quellish said:
As far as I know, nope. There is new tech in the pods, no relation to legion as far as I am aware (I’m no legion expert)
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Thanks. Though I'd still expect broadly similar large lwIR sensor doing cooperative targeting - it's fleet effort for USAF and navair.
 
Big_Zukini said:
Once the F-47 makes it into service, there's a case for rapid divestment from F-22. But we're obviously not there yet. Let's say about 15 years away. Give or take.
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The $12BB F-22 service life extension program is expected to allow the fleet to remain in service for over the next 20 years.
 
What would the service life extension program for the F-22 involve? New avionics? As the current avionics go back to the 1990s.
 
FighterJock said:
What would the service life extension program for the F-22 involve? New avionics? As the current avionics go back to the 1990s.
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It's always about the airframe to increase the flight hours. Everything else is done along because the aircraft is being completely rebuild anyway.
Avionics have been replaced and upgraded like a decade ago. New code and complete conversion to open architecture has been completed recently. So it's whatever else needs replaced or upgraded like cables and tubes etc.
 
i could only imagine that cost is the deciding factor for not making the IRST internal. F35's EOTS seems relatively small and could be modified to fit into the f22's frame
 
JJPET said:
i could only imagine that cost is the deciding factor for not making the IRST internal. F35's EOTS seems relatively small and could be modified to fit into the f22's frame
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IIRC, the space originally intended for the F-22 IRST got taken up by other systems after the IRST was dropped.

F-35 EOTS is literally the guts of a Sniper pod, so that's how much space you need to find in the F-22 airframe.
 
Lockheed Martin f-22 upgrade


+8
Lockheed Martin Plans to Integrate New Defensive System on F ...
The F-22 Raptor is undergoing an $11 billion "Raptor 2.0" modernization program to maintain dominance through the 2030s and 2040s, this YouTube video confirms. Key upgrades include Lockheed Martin's new Infrared Search and Track (IRST) sensors, stealthy 600-gallon drop tanks to improve range, and integration of the AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM). The program also features updated Low Observable (LO) coatings and open-system software for faster, future updates.
Lockheed Martin
Lockheed Martin
+4
Key Upgrade Areas
Sensors & Avionics: Installation of the Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system (also known as IRDS), enabling 360-degree, passive target detection. The cockpit is being upgraded with new displays and an improved Electronic Warfare (EW) suite.
Weaponry & Range: Integration of the AIM-260 JATM and capability to carry hypersonic Mako missiles. New stealthy, low-drag fuel tanks and pylons are being added to extend combat range without sacrificing stealth.
Structure & Maintenance: Upgrades include more durable Radar Absorbent Material (RAM) coatings and improvements to the F-119 engines to enhance reliability and performance.
Software: Adoption of an Open Mission Systems architecture to allow for rapid, agile software updates.
 
I would have thought that LM would have to update the Low Observable coatings on the F-22, I take it that the coatings would come from the F-35? Or even newer LO coatings.
 
missile_man said:
Lockheed Martin f-22 upgrade


+8
Lockheed Martin Plans to Integrate New Defensive System on F ...
The F-22 Raptor is undergoing an $11 billion "Raptor 2.0" modernization program to maintain dominance through the 2030s and 2040s, this YouTube video confirms. Key upgrades include Lockheed Martin's new Infrared Search and Track (IRST) sensors, stealthy 600-gallon drop tanks to improve range, and integration of the AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM). The program also features updated Low Observable (LO) coatings and open-system software for faster, future updates.
Lockheed Martin
Lockheed Martin
+4
Key Upgrade Areas
Sensors & Avionics: Installation of the Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system (also known as IRDS), enabling 360-degree, passive target detection. The cockpit is being upgraded with new displays and an improved Electronic Warfare (EW) suite.
Weaponry & Range: Integration of the AIM-260 JATM and capability to carry hypersonic Mako missiles. New stealthy, low-drag fuel tanks and pylons are being added to extend combat range without sacrificing stealth.
Structure & Maintenance: Upgrades include more durable Radar Absorbent Material (RAM) coatings and improvements to the F-119 engines to enhance reliability and performance.
Software: Adoption of an Open Mission Systems architecture to allow for rapid, agile software updates.
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Where is this from? This is very interesting. Was surprised to see new displays and Mako integration. Would have liked to see a updated APG-77 w/ GaN TR modules but I'm guessing that would be too pricey to develop for a small fleet.
 
JJPET said:
i could only imagine that cost is the deciding factor for not making the IRST internal. F35's EOTS seems relatively small and could be modified to fit into the f22's frame
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What you see on the outside is just part of the entire system. And many people, allegedly knowledgeable, have stated in various contexts that the F-22 is very constrained with regards to internal volume.

Otherwise they wouldn't have swallowed the bitter pill of throwing huge external payloads onto that thing, no matter the cost.
 
BDF said:
Where is this from? This is very interesting. Was surprised to see new displays and Mako integration.
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It's highly suspect. Mako has not been procured by USAF, so F-22/Mako integration is not real. IRDS is not an IRST, it's a missile approach warning system, maybe akin to the F-35 DAS. When they say "displays" I assume they are talking about the Scorpion HMD, because the actual cockpit displays were updated a decade ago from CRTs to LCD screens. Etc.

This looks very much like an AI-generated post that smashes together a bunch of things and loses a lot of fine distinctions in the process.
 
TomS said:
It's highly suspect. Mako has not been procured by USAF, so F-22/Mako integration is not real. IRDS is not an IRST, it's a missile approach warning system, maybe akin to the F-35 DAS. When they say "displays" I assume they are talking about the Scorpion HMD, because the actual cockpit displays were updated a decade ago from CRTs to LCD screens. Etc.

This looks very much like an AI-generated post that smashes together a bunch of things and loses a lot of fine distinctions in the process.
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Yeah I am suspicious too which is why I was asking. Mako doesn't really make any sense for the Raptor and as you stated is not even being purchased currently by the USAF
 
Correct. There are no contracts or requirements for the Mako.

The missile was unveiled in April 2024 at the Navy League’s Sea Air Space exposition in Maryland, with Lockheed Martin pitching it to both the U.S. Navy and Air Force. It has also been considered for deployment on submarines and surface warships
 

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