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"Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor" book

Skybolt

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Well, what about "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor. Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter", by Aronstein, Hirschberg and Piccirillo, AIAA, 1998 ;)
Not perfect, but nevertheless useful in reconstructing programs and requirements lineage...
 

sferrin

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Re: "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor" book

Skybolt said:
Well, what about "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor. Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter", by Aronstein, Hirschberg and Piccirillo, AIAA, 1998 ;)
Not perfect, but nevertheless useful in reconstructing programs and requirements lineage...

Have that one. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (Wasn't anything new in there that I hadn't read somewhere before).
 

flateric

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Re: "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor" book

sferrin said:
Have that one. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (Wasn't anything new in there that I hadn't read somewhere before).

Hmm, I would argue that if you will look at publication date, you will understand that 99% you have read of _real_ pre-ATF and ATF itself multimegastage history before WAS in fact taken from Aronstein, Hirschberg and Piccirillo. I bet that this trinity allowed to clearly understand all the milestones of the program, especially its early stages, from the first hands. Pricetag is weird, but the book costs every cent.
 

lantinian

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Re: "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor" book

I would join flaterick in his opinion.

"F-22 Raptor. Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter" is simply the single most rich source of information about the ATF program until the first flight of the Raptor. Not only that but if you just look at the reference after each chapter you will be literary swamped with link to follow.

lantinian
 

sferrin

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Re: "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor" book

flateric said:
sferrin said:
Have that one. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (Wasn't anything new in there that I hadn't read somewhere before).

Hmm, I would argue that if you will look at publication date, you will understand that 99% you have read of _real_ pre-ATF and ATF itself multimegastage history before WAS in fact taken from Aronstein, Hirschberg and Piccirillo. I bet that this trinity allowed to clearly understand all the milestones of the program, especially its early stages, from the first hands. Pricetag is weird, but the book costs every cent.

I don't doubt that. Thing is I bought the book after I'd already seen most of the info elsewhere. Got it oh, four or five years ago.
 

Sundog

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Re: "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor" book

The only problem with "F-22 Raptor. Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter" is the info in it on the YF-23's performance. It seems they were trying to rewrite history as the info in that book directly contradicts what the engineers reported and what was reported in Aviation Week as well. Other than that, I think it's a must have book simply for all of the information on all of the programs that eventually became the ATF program as we know it. It put's all of those "fighter" concepts from the late 70's and early 80's into proper context.

But back on topic, thanks for the letting me know that's probably just a working cover and not the final cover.
 

lantinian

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Re: "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor" book

Sundog, can you please be a little more specific regarding exactly how the stats on the YF-23 in the Aronstein/Piccirillo book contradict the other popular sources? Anything about the YF-23 with F119 achieving its hightest supercruise of 1.43 in its first supersonic flight? ;)

thanks,
lantinian
 

Sundog

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Re: "Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor" book

The highest supercruise of the YF-23 with the P&W engines was Mach 1.8 and with the GE engines was Mach 2.2+. In fact, with the GE engines, it was said that the YF-23 was the fastest tactical fighter ever built which tells me it was probably M=2.8+ and possibly near M=3. It's a known fact that in a drag race the YF-23 would leave the YF-22 in the dust.

In fact, it was the YF-22 that had a supercruise speed of M=1.4 with the P&W engines and required AB just to go supersonic with those engines, whereas the YF-23 didn't have any problems going supersonic in dry thrust with the P&W engines.

It was also reported, but I can't confirm, but in one of those "zoom" climb tests at Edwards where the pilots do a "tower run" at max speed (For alt) and then go into a vertical climb that the GE powered YF-23 went straight up to 100,000 ft, but I can't confrim that. In the same run, the production F-22 could reportedly go straight up to 60,000 ft in the same maneuver with a full weapons load and fuel, which is quite remarkable.

I'd be willing to bet a standard production F-22 in operational condition could break the time-to-climb records by at least half, but I'm sure the USAF doesn't want to give out too much info on it's actual performance by doing that. ;)
 

flateric

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Guys, YF-23 PAV-2 flying at Mach 3, even at Mach 2,5 seems rather unrealistic figures for me.
Northrop/MDC team has prominent problems with composite materials aerodynamic heating even at Mach 1,5-1,7 frame (even more problems, btw, caused engines that grilled carbon/bismaleide engine cowls 'DAMN HOT', aircraft smelled as a chemical factory after landing. If you will carefully look at recent pictures of both prototypes, you will notice something bad hapenning with its Herculite(TM) canopy windshield, another big heating problem of ATF-23 team.
 

lantinian

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Yes, flatercik is right. The PAV-2 Supercruise testing was definitely hurt by problems with the canopy and current LO materials tend to lose their cabability and melt above Mach 2.4. So the YF-23 was overdesigned in a sense. Also I am not sure what is the maximum speed of weapons bay operations. I hope its as high as the YF-12 ;)

Otherwise, thanks Sundog. It seams you are one of the few (me included) that support the idea that YF-23 was just as fast over the YF-22 as the YF-22 is faster than the F-15C. I am glad that the Raptor is caching up. And I also share your feeling about the altitude records taken from the F-15 by P-42 (Su-27). I guess that a note is the Guinness book is not as important as a note in the enemy intelligence books ;)

lantinian
 

elmayerle

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All the comparative YF-22/Yf-23 that was shared within Northrop Engineering when the YF-23 was in flight test showed that the YF-23 definitely had better performance than the YF-22. I was there, on TSSAM, at the time. As to LO materials being adversely affected by high temperature, some are but there are others....

Seriously, I don't doubt but what the Northrop/MDC team could've resolved any problems that the flight testing showed, I knew some folks on that team.
 

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If you guys like this one, check out Aronstein & Picirillo's book on HAVE BLUE and the F-117. That one has some great backstory in there and some amusing details of the SENIOR TREND test program (like AIM-9s).
 

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