Pershing 2 is the main reason for the INF. Consider all that the USSR gave up to get rid of them. (Yes, I know there were 464 Gryphons as well.) It's short time of flight, range, and accuracy could launch a decapitating strike. (Yet, for some reason, we've never worried about a Russian SSGN sitting off Virgina and doing the same with nuclear-armed, supersonic cruise missiles. No, the recent news doesn't count.)
 
Pershing 2 is the main reason for the INF. Consider all that the USSR gave up to get rid of them. (Yes, I know there were 464 Gryphons as well.) It's short time of flight, range, and accuracy could launch a decapitating strike. (Yet, for some reason, we've never worried about a Russian SSGN sitting off Virgina and doing the same with nuclear-armed, supersonic cruise missiles. No, the recent news doesn't count.)
Why does cruise missile air defence consist of around silos and important sites?
 
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“The best initial candidate would most likely be a system I will call the Pershing
III, an upgrade of the
1980s Pershing II missile re-engineered for anti-ship warfare. The Pershing II was a Mach 9 missile that could deliver an 880-pound warhead out to ranges of 1770 kilometers within minutes. Fired from a mobile TEL”
————-
Seems to be the authors designation. There was an actual possible Pershing III a similar but larger missile in the SICBM competition
 
“The best initial candidate would most likely be a system I will call the Pershing
III, an upgrade of the
1980s Pershing II missile re-engineered for anti-ship warfare. The Pershing II was a Mach 9 missile that could deliver an 880-pound warhead out to ranges of 1770 kilometers within minutes. Fired from a mobile TEL”
————-
Seems to be the authors designation. There was an actual possible Pershing III a similar but larger missile in the SICBM competition
There were 2 Pershing III proposals:
Post #25
 
What is the basis for that rather bold assertion?
If the Soviets had launched a surprise attack, even if the missiles weren't destroyed at their bases, the Russian brass wouldn't be twiddling their thumbs in Moscow, they'd have decamped far to the east or gotten on planes a la looking glass. So they were useless for their officially stated role. The only way they could be used was in a first strike, which of course was very dangerous for MAD.
 
Pershing II needlessly aggravated Cold War tensions without really contributing to NATO's defense.

Pershing II was treaty bait. Also, it wasn't an *American* idea, either.

The Soviet Union had developed a road-mobile MIRV-capable solid-fuel missile in the 70s, that could hit basically anywhere in Europe but not across the Atlantic. If used, they'd give ten to fifteen minutes of warning before the nukes started raining across military bases (at best) or population centers (at worst) from Trondheim to Inverness to Gibraltar, and the missiles could reach that far from Kazakhstan. If they were parked in Belarus, they could hit Reykjavik.

Carter wasn't worried, he originally decided that bombers would be enough, but the German chancellor proposed developing a NATO counter to the SS-20, which was agreed to by the rest of NATO and took the form of the two-track system - IRBMs based on the Pershing in Germany, and cruise missiles based on the Tomahawk in Germany, England, Italy, Belgium, and Netherlands. The idea was, if the Soviet Union was going to threaten every base or city in Europe with nukes, NATO would respond in kind.

I'm not sure that both sides weren't involved in covertly managing the massive anti-nuke protests - the Soviets because they thought that riling the public up against nukes might cause the western democracies to fold; and the local governments because if the protests were big enough and they *didn't* fold, they'd look more resolute.

As for how destabilizing they were? In four years of operational deployments and only three quarters or so of the planned missiles even reaching Europe; they got the Soviet Union to get rid of *two and a half thousand* nuclear missiles whose only purpose was turning Europe into a wasteland. Just to get those missiles off their doorstep.

Pershing II and GLCM made the world more safe, not less. Which was their *entire point*. It was not the first time the US pulled this particular trick either, they did the same in the 1920s with the Washington Naval Treaty - start a huge batch of big scary warships and then go to the other naval powers and say "you know what, if you stop building yours, I'll stop building mine".

Anyway, I forgot what I came to the thread for because of the bad take. So here's my question:

I'm building a Pershing II battery in 3D, but after scouring all the documents I could find, I still haven't found anything that looks like a TO&E for anything beyond the Firing Platoon level - stuff like "how radio trucks" and "how many cargo trucks".

The point of the exercise is to make complete emplaceable firing, resupply and command positions for a video game, as well as a full vizualization of what a complete Pershing Battalion looks like. I've got most of the hardware built already, but I need to know how many of each truck beyond the launchers went with each unit.

I've already read FM 6-11 (Pershing II Firing Battery) and the Pershing II Missile System Description (the latter is where I got most of my reference drawings), but the former doesn't go into the rest of the unit beyond the sharp end, and the latter describes what kinds of specialized trucks and equipment are in the unit but not their quantities.
 
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Oops. Missed this part.
So here's my question:

I'm building a Pershing II battery in 3D, but after scouring all the documents I could find, I still haven't found anything that looks like a TO&E for anything beyond the Firing Platoon level - stuff like "how radio trucks" and "how many cargo trucks".

The point of the exercise is to make complete emplaceable firing, resupply and command positions for a video game, as well as a full vizualization of what a complete Pershing Battalion looks like. I've got most of the hardware built already, but I need to know how many of each truck beyond the launchers went with each unit.

I've already read FM 6-11 (Pershing II Firing Battery) and the Pershing II Missile System Description (the latter is where I got most of my reference drawings), but the former doesn't go into the rest of the unit beyond the sharp end, and the latter describes what kinds of specialized trucks and equipment are in the unit but not their quantities.
That's weird, because the FM usually has the full list of all the supporting gear for a battery.
 
Oops. Missed this part.

That's weird, because the FM usually has the full list of all the supporting gear for a battery.


See if you can spot it better than I can. I did find that there's three recovery vehicles assigned to a battery and that they're usually deployed with the firing platoons to expedite recovery if necessary (since the heavy wreckers are specifically to unwreck the missile tractors), but this manual does not mention the BCC trailer, the CAS trailer, or the maintenance trailers. Or how many cargo trucks (only that it takes two flatbed trailers to move all the components for a missile in their containers).


TM 9-1425-386-10-1 (Operators Manual Pershing II Weapon System) has all of the pieces of hardware described, but no mention of distribution.
 
Hmm. The Russian wikipedia article goes into greater detail about the twists and turns of the INF treaty than the English one, and it confirms entirely that the Pershing II was treaty bait. The Soviet Union had deployed SS-20 which could hit all the ports in Europe, and had conventional superiority on top - the war was basically won, why would they withdraw their missiles just because NATO asked nicely? And up until the missiles were actually deployed, the Soviet price for withdrawing the SS-20 was the elimination of all NATO tactical nuclear weapons in Europe, *just* for the SS-20. That wasn't going to fly either.

Also, Dmitry Ustinov kept going full send on trying to get as much as possible for the removal of his missiles. All tactical nuclear bombs *and* the SDI *and* Pershing2/GLCM. It wasn't until he died near the end of 1984 that the Soviet Union were willing to entertain a deal that didn't involve killing multiple US programs (as well as the British and French programs)
 
I've got a copy of the Pershing II TM 9-1425-10-1 manual which I bought about 11-12 years ago.
 
For anyone who lived through the 80s the Pershing along with the Tomahawk Glickm Cruise Missile was never out of the headlines and popular culture. The film "Weird Science" from 1985 had a scene where some nerdy teenagers try to create their ideal woman but their gadget is left on a Time Magazine cover and they make a Pershing instead.
I remember, as a kid I was with my parents at a demonstration against stationing Pershing II in Germany....
 
As for how destabilizing they were? In four years of operational deployments and only three quarters or so of the planned missiles even reaching Europe; they got the Soviet Union to get rid of *two and a half thousand* nuclear missiles whose only purpose was turning Europe into a wasteland. Just to get those missiles off their doorstep.
Shhh. Don’t let the disarmament crowd discover this!

Seriously though. I agree. When you have a big bang, the other guy has a big bang too and both comes to a mutual agreement that we won’t kill each other and have puppets do that job. Just look at free gun states in the Southern US. Even throughout early history, bandits know to avoid and turn to trade with well defended tribes.
 
Before Pershing II & GLCM deployment massive Soviet intermediate nuclear arsenal after deployment.

“The Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces Treaty negotiated by U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987 not only eliminated an entire class of nuclear weapons but also broke new ground in arms control verification, according to declassified documents on INF negotiations published today by the National Security Archive.”
 
If used, they'd give ten to fifteen minutes of warning before the nukes started raining across military bases (at best) or population centers (at worst) from Trondheim to Inverness to Gibraltar, and the missiles could reach that far from Kazakhstan.
Except that that has been a risk since ICBMs first arrived in the 1950s.
 
Couldn't NATO have fielded a shorter range missile that would be able to hit Soviet FOBs without threatening Moscow?
Couldn't WARPAC have fielded a shorter range missile that could only hit targets in the FRG? Lol.
Except that that has been a risk since ICBMs first arrived in the 1950s.
Intentionally misleading. The level of risks are *incomparable. Also, ICBMs take far more than 15 minutes, whereas SS-20 is a theater asset.
 
Except that that has been a risk since ICBMs first arrived in the 1950s.

Not even close.

Early missiles were liquid fueled, and the really early ones were cryogenically fueled. The whole rigamarole with hours of preparation from when the rocket is put on the pad that we have with space launch rockets now? They had to do that for all the ballistic missiles back in the 1950s. It was super obvious, for hours or even days ahead of time, that missiles were being prepped for launch. And anything that would be coming down in Europe could be *seen* from Europe, by aircraft.

Switching to storable liquid propellants in the 1960s cut the prep time by a fair chunk, but there was still prep time, and it was still obvious enough to be seen on satellites. Now you had a couple of hours warning that the missiles were being prepped.

Switching to solid fuel in 1976 meant that there was next to no prep time. You'd know the missiles were being prepped to launch when you couldn't find them in their garrison parking lots, because they'd dispersed into the forest, and when the missiles were detected in the air.

Of course, the US had adopted solid fuel missiles in the 60s instead of going with storable liquid propellants, but the number of missiles they had in Europe was relatively tiny - there were only 180 Pershing I launchers total, but they were based in Germany and couldn't hit Russia at all (Belarus, Ukraine and Poland, yes, but not Russia). The Soviets started out deploying 300 SS-20s with three warheads each - five times as many warheads as the Pershings, and they could hit all of Europe, all the way to Iceland.
 
Interesting I have this book and can’t recall reading about the “Advanced Mobile ICBM Warhead” at 500kt. Cannot find any other references to this weapon.
Sounds like Midgetman, but that was to be fired from CONUS.
That's just the original W87-1, which was actually literally just a reimplementation of the initial version of the original W87-0 design prior to it being forcibly converted to use a non-HEU secondary.

Yield is thought to be in the 455–475 kt range (most estimates cite 475 kt), but it is also considered a 500 kt nominal warhead, the same as the W88, which is probably why it's listed as 500 kt. Originally not a lot of information was known about the exact expected yield, so many earlier estimates simply called it a 500 kt warhead (which technically wasn't even all that far off from the mark either).

Basically, it's what the W87 was originally supposed to be.

Couldn't NATO have fielded a shorter range missile that would be able to hit Soviet FOBs without threatening Moscow?
Ironically this is exactly what the Pershing II was. It was never even close to being capable of hitting Moscow, but the Soviets had done their own technical analysis on the Pershing II's capabilities, and had somehow arrived at the (wholly inaccurate) conclusion that the missile had a 2500 km range and could therefore be used to hit Moscow when fired from within Western Germany, when in fact it only had a 1770 km range and was incapable of hitting Moscow when fired from Western-controlled soil.

They also thought that Pershing II had been deployed with an earth penetrating warhead, which was also false – we were working on developing a new warhead for the Pershing II which would have some level of earth penetrating capability, but this warhead was never completed and its development program was terminated before it could be deployed. The only warhead that was ever actively deployed on the Pershing II was wholly incapable of being used for earth penetration.

And even the one under development wasn't really much to write home about – it was a pretty good EPW design, but the warhead yield was extremely low, so it wouldn't have been very useful against many types of deeply buried targets. I guess it could have possibly posed a threat to Moscow if they had extremely shallow bomb shelters with the exact position known super precisely, but the yield was so comedically low that you'd have had to use a salvo of them just to have a somewhat plausible-ish chance of cracking a single shelter, and that's assuming unrealistically good accuracy, targeting knowledge, and penetration.

Also it overlooks the whole issue that it'd be impossible to hit Moscow from Western-occupied territory in the first place, which makes this a pointless exercise to begin with – by the time the Pershing units have moved close enough to attempt that kind of decapitation strike, we'd be deeply embroiled in a conventional war which would probably have already long since gone nuclear given American and Soviet doctrine at the time, and therefore the politburo would have had plenty of forewarning to evacuate Moscow long before any Pershing unit got anywhere near being within range of Moscow.

IMO the W86 was kind of pointless – the EPW research was certainly quite useful down the line, but the utility of such a low yield EPW warhead is very limited against many deeply buried targets. It could be useful for cracking open extremely shallow bunkers, but that's about it.

I can kind of see why they funded it given the other zany stuff that was still considered reasonable back in that era, but there were better ways to spend that money. Then again, I suppose it could have been intended from the start as a bargaining chip to apply pressure against the Soviets with.

Or maybe there truly were a lot of shallowly buried command posts scattered across Eastern Europe that the Pershing II EPW would have been ideally suited for taking out. Idk. It's somewhat plausible I suppose.

If nothing else, it could simply have been intended as a vehicle to get funding to conduct more R&D on nuclear EPWs, in which case I suppose it did its job reasonably well.

Not even close.

Early missiles were liquid fueled, and the really early ones were cryogenically fueled. The whole rigamarole with hours of preparation from when the rocket is put on the pad that we have with space launch rockets now? They had to do that for all the ballistic missiles back in the 1950s. It was super obvious, for hours or even days ahead of time, that missiles were being prepped for launch. And anything that would be coming down in Europe could be *seen* from Europe, by aircraft.

Switching to storable liquid propellants in the 1960s cut the prep time by a fair chunk, but there was still prep time, and it was still obvious enough to be seen on satellites. Now you had a couple of hours warning that the missiles were being prepped.

Switching to solid fuel in 1976 meant that there was next to no prep time. You'd know the missiles were being prepped to launch when you couldn't find them in their garrison parking lots, because they'd dispersed into the forest, and when the missiles were detected in the air.

Of course, the US had adopted solid fuel missiles in the 60s instead of going with storable liquid propellants, but the number of missiles they had in Europe was relatively tiny - there were only 180 Pershing I launchers total, but they were based in Germany and couldn't hit Russia at all (Belarus, Ukraine and Poland, yes, but not Russia). The Soviets started out deploying 300 SS-20s with three warheads each - five times as many warheads as the Pershings, and they could hit all of Europe, all the way to Iceland.
Storable liquids did not have any significant or detectable prep time. As long as the guidance systems were kept spun up, then the only limiting factor was the time to open the silo door and go through the launch sequence, which was extremely short for both storable liquids and solid propellants.

For example, the (storable liquids) Titan II could be hot launched from within the silo in under 60 seconds (some sources say under 58 seconds).

Similarly, the (solid propellant) Minuteman III can also be hot launched from within its silo in under 60 seconds.

The Soviets developed the technique of "ampulization" of their storable liquids ICBMs to allow leaving them fueled for extended periods of time (initially 5 years, then 10 years, and eventually as high as 15 years). This was deployed starting with the second generation of Soviet ICBMs, which were deployed in the 1965–1973 period.

There was no "couple of hours" warning once solids and ampulized storable liquids became mainstream, which happened quite rapidly.

For the Soviets, their ampulized storable liquid missiles were every bit as good as a solid propellant missile when it came to missile launch times.
 
That's just the original W87-1, which was actually literally just a reimplementation of the initial version of the original W87-0 design prior to it being forcibly converted to use a non-HEU secondary.

Yield is thought to be in the 455–475 kt range (most estimates cite 475 kt), but it is also considered a 500 kt nominal warhead, the same as the W88, which is probably why it's listed as 500 kt. Originally not a lot of information was known about the exact expected yield, so many earlier estimates simply called it a 500 kt warhead (which technically wasn't even all that far off from the mark either).

Basically, it's what the W87 was originally supposed to be.
This was a1984 publication that mentions the MX/W87 so not sure why they wouldn’t mention it again in the context of a warhead for this missile.

It may very well be the W87 but Munster and Calmendro were floating around figured this might denote an additional possible warhead specific to this missile.
 

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