OMG. Are we discussing the Bolton version of How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb? Yes, it's John Bolton, not Timothy Burton.

It's not that I don't want to talk about nuclear war, but we've strayed too far from "USN Missions around Taiwan."

All you Bolton fans, please calm down. If somebody wants to say something, post a new thread.
 
The orbital ABM from USSF and Fort Greely can attrit incoming warheads sufficiently to reduce losses to a couple of cities in the counter value strike, at most, or a handful of ports or silos. The Jins are not a serious threat and likely won't fire more than a couple missiles before being sunk since they're routinely tailed by USN SSNs. The 096 will be more credible, but it doesn't exist yet, and it'll still need to break out from the South China Sea to fire on CONUS. JL-4 may solve this when it's more widespread.
Wrong, JL-3 already has the range to hit CONUS from effectively inside their ports. Whatever western sources call "JL-3" right now is not the actual JL-3 which is expected to be shown this year. Also, what? Orbital ABM?? what are you smoking the system doesn't even exist yet, there's far greater chance that PLAN get it's 096 in service before that system ever gets completed. You are high on hopium for the US side while assuming the Chinese side will not advance nor increase in numbers in the next what 10 years? Also, how exactly would USN submarines operate safely in SCS and be allowed to tail PLAN SSBNs when China will operate dozens of its own SSNs in the near future?
With SDB carriage, you have a superhard target killer that is packed 80-100 into a single jet. With 12-16 B-2s, and a loss rate of 20-30%, you have more than enough weapons to completely annihilate the silo based force of the PLARF with glide bombs and almost 2:1 ratio of weapons to targets except at the very lowest end (1/3rd loss of sortie with 12 available B-2 means 7-8 B-2 with 560-640 weapons) which is enough to make the PLARF land based force very very sad.
Where would your B-2s even take off? PLARF would have reduced most airfields in second island chain to rubbles by then, B-21 don't even have the range to strike Chinese mainland from beyond the second island chain without tanker support which will be dangerous in contested airspace.
 
That is the same thing that Saddam thought before invading Kuwait, but since Hitler annexed Czechoslovakia there is an unwritten rule that consists of stopping the aggressor's, to prevent him from daring to continue invading other countries. This history lesson is very much alive in the consciousness of all Western leaders. The world cannot afford to happen again.:(
Ohmy, you really don't need to justify military action purely for national interests with such words, especially when discussing this topic: after all, I am really Chinese. I grew up in Yancheng, Jiangsu, China, where there have been many airspace violation in the last century. One of them even directly invaded the airspace over my hometown - I really don't think those EA-6Bs did it out of kindness to help PLA training.:confused:I have no intention of continuing to discuss politics, but please, no historical revisionism.
 
Erm, Chinese use dense pack system.
I don't think 2-4km really counts as dense pack.

But let's say it does count.

We're still staggering impacts between silos, far enough that there's no fratricide risks. Might have to assign any given B-2 to a 4x4 block of silos, so the closest impacts are ~6km apart. If 6km is still too close, well, we're going to have to assign pairs of B-2s to a 4x8 block of silos in passes maybe 30sec-1min apart over target. Lead B-2 hits rows 1 and 3, trail B-2 hits rows 2 and 4.

Unlike Kat, I don't believe that SDBs can pop a silo muzzle door. Be really nice if they could, because nothing says "screw you" like a B-2 dropping 80x weapons (or more).

On the other hand, how many 1000lb weapons can a B-2 carry? 36? Because if you can stuff 36x JSOW-Cs with BROACH warheads in there, that's almost as good as B61-12s for silo-busting.



Where would your B-2s even take off? PLARF would have reduced most airfields in second island chain to rubbles by then, B-21 don't even have the range to strike Chinese mainland from beyond the second island chain without tanker support which will be dangerous in contested airspace.
Whiteman AFB, where the B-2s live. 6000nmi combat range means they're refueling somewhere over Alaska (gotta love great-circle routing)
 
Unless China managed to keep SK and Japan neutral, those are some relatively powerful navies holding down the East China sea.

South Korea has no interest to intervene against China, not only because they're on rather decent terms all things considered, but also because if the ROK threatens them, the PRC would let the DPRK off the leash. And that would, at the very least, lead to Seoul being reduced to rubble, even without use of nuclear warheads. That's hundreds of thousands if not millions of civilian casualties right there.

Japan could essentially be disarmed by the PLAAF and PLARF alone. And a handful of SSKs would probably survive but ultimately they're running on borrowed time.

Japan is an inconvenience for China, but not a threat, it's a obstacle to get rid off early and geographic realities make this relatively easy. The biggest threat remains the USN submarine force and to a degree Australian subs when they get their hands on SSNs. But I doubt Australia would do much aside from blockading sea lanes critical to reach Australia. I doubt the population in Australia would be keen on virtually declaring war on China. While ensuring Australian sovereignty is something that everyone could get behind.
 
Considering their experiments with searching submarines by orbiting lasers, they may just think boomers would not be such a good idea anymore.

China is developing a successor to their current 094s and 094As though. The latter being allegedly a big improvement over the previous version.

Difference is that China isn't putting all eggs in one basket though, unlike the US which essentially relies completely on the old and venerable Ohio-Class (to be replaced by the brand new Columbia-Class in the near future). The silos get little love in the US, the debate of getting rid of them popping up every other year. They don't have TELs and the survivability of USAF bombers is questionable (until the B-21 comes into service, but even they are vulnerable on the ground).

China very much has a fondness of having many different kinds of missiles being potential platforms for nuclear delivery, be it in Silos or various TELs. They disperse their growing stockpile more, albeit favoring the land leg of the triad as of now.
 
The U.S. can afford to lose a few more cities
Now tell that the people in said US cities and see how they react. Treating your civilian population as expendable isn't a viable strategy for a country that relies on said population for support in democratic elections.

"Yeah guys, y'all will die terribly agonizing deaths in a huge nuclear firestorm, but what are a couple million people, at least we destroyed these Chinese missile trucks! Why are y'all looking so angry? What's up with the pitchforks?"
 
China very much has a fondness of having many different kinds of missiles being potential platforms for nuclear delivery, be it in Silos or various TELs. They disperse their growing stockpile more, albeit favoring the land leg of the triad as of now.
Exactly. They are working to have reliable deterrence - and not keen of "putting all eggs in one backet".
 
Alas, peoples wanted to believe that there is magical simple solution to complex problems. It's perfecfly natural, i suppose.
It's not a simple solution, but it is worrisome that certain segments of American thinkers are memeing themselves into thinking it is so. Even if you take conventional counterforce at face value, the end result is still the classical "ten-to-twenty million dead tops", as per Doctor Strangelove, and the probable end of US global leadership. If the outcome is the end of US global leadership either way, what's the point of waging this war with such ferocity? Offshore balancing can be achieved with far less drastic measures than limited or unlimited thermonuclear warfare over Taiwan!

"Yeah guys, y'all will die terribly agonizing deaths in a huge nuclear firestorm, but what are a couple million people, at least we destroyed these Chinese missile trucks! Why are y'all looking so angry? What's up with the pitchforks?"
In WW2, the US Navy did not believe US resolve could be sustained for the four years needed to build a fresh fleet to go after the IJN, which was why they initially took a dim view of the long-war strategy. This turned out to be not the case, in particular thanks to Yamamoto's missteps in striking first at Pearl Harbor, which provided grist for the mill of anti-Japanese feeling.

The resolve of the American people is very difficult to gauge; in the event of a war, US public opinion might shift dramatically, and there is no reason to believe that US national mood is necessarily fully rational, or that the US body politic has necessarily a well-refined and constructive grasp of its own long-term national interests, given recent convulsions in the domestic situation. That is not to say Chinese resolve is fully understood (although the eyeball estimate, and the Core National Interest messaging promogulated by Beijing is that China will go nuclear over Taiwan should the need arise), but Red Team simply cannot reliably count on the asymmetry of Red and Blue resolve to win the war for it.

Now, since the assumption from Red Team is that Red Team is not in this to actively foment a war on a specific timetable, this is probably an acceptable risk, but one can only conclude that risks are being taken to balance costs and benefits to the national economy and development trajectory.

=/=

More broadly, Blue Team's desire to prepare for everything and defend everything at or beyond the limits of its actual power, while apparently having difficulty having a detailed analysis of the risks and benefits or a novel global strategy, is what has created this air of unreality around the USN's missions around Taiwan, making it very difficult to discuss the specifics of a Taiwan contingency.

The USN cannot properly defend Taiwan, that much is clear, it's stuck with submarine operations which would seem grossly incapable of fully defeating any conventional invasion of Taiwan from magazine depth issues alone (even with tiny torpedoes and some AUVs), although large costs would doubtless be imposed on the PLAN and invasion shipping. It would be relatively easy for the PLAN to seal off at least the straits from submarines with giant minefields and suchlike, and the volume of shipping and attack aviation, large and small, that can be mobilized seems overwhelming.

Even if heavy armor cannot be landed due to the loss of large numbers of ferries and suchlike (and total defeat of the landing seems unlikely), there is sufficient slack in maritime militia forces and increasing mass production of helicopters that significant forces could be landed piecemeal and supported extensively and lavishly by artillery and airpower and resupply drones and suchlike even with a heavy reliance on relatively low level communications (e.g. drone repeaters, floating fiber optics) thanks to successful US space superiority. A few dozen infantry companies hugging the coast of Taiwan may not sound like much, but with artillery support and air support and follow-on forces they can cause quite a problem for Taiwanese defenders and buy significant time and options!

Admiral Paparo has come out and noted that the US has lost air superiority within the 1st Island Chain; they can surge the flattops and push heavily SEAD-supported strike packages through with time and acceptance of attrition, but in a sustained fight they will lose, and a sustained fight is what will be necessary for invasion defeat.

The distant blockade is very feasible, but that's beyond the scope of this.
 
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I think China will not invade Taiwan
because Taiwan government made everything ready to leave scorch earth in case of Invasion
China losing everything they try to gain: the semiconductor industry

but why is China focus for moment on Taiwan that USA start to intervene ?
Distraction !
China has almost 5000 years of Military doctrine, compare to Russia and Wester World
the Chinese General Sun Tzu say once:
A military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent.
Though effective, appear to be ineffective.
That's why China if focusing on Taiwan, to deception from real goal RUSSIA
Putin "little war" turn out to be disaster, Strategic bomber down to 15%, Pacific Fleet harbour damage by Tsunami.
almost 1 million soldiers stuck in Trenches in Ukraine

the Chinese General Sun Tzu about that:
What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations.
There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare.
Who benefiting from Situation is China !
while Russia forces are stuck in Ukraine, the Strategic weapons cripple and Moscow losing control over Siberia.
Is perfect moment for China to take with ease Russia Manchuria and parts of Siberia !
Russia Manchuria was once Chinese until Russia annexed it in 1859.

it would not only be huge National Victory for China
They gain needed resource like Water and coal also Infrastructure.
 
I think China will not invade Taiwan
because Taiwan government made everything ready to leave scorch earth in case of Invasion
China losing everything they try to gain: the semiconductor industry
With all respect, but I think you underestimate the psychological factor. Taiwan is basically a rebellous province of China, which - absolutely illegally - got protection from foreign power, which doesn't even recognize it officially. For basically any nation it's a tremendous insult and serious challenge for its sovereignity. For Chinese, this is especially insulting, since Taiwan is basically the only remnant of a "bad old days" when China was weak and bullied by colonial powers.

Bringing Taiwan back into Chinese direct control isn't about semiconductors or even ambitions of Chinese government. It's essentially a popular consensus amongst the majority of Chinese population. And while before populations was forced to admit that "China isn't strong enough yet", now China is "strong enough" in its population eyes.
it would not only be huge National Victory for China
They gain needed resource like Water and coal also Infrastructure.
Following that logic USA should annex Canada long ago, since Canada didn't even have nuclear weapons.

On practice, China is not interested much in Siberia. While Taiwan as a historical Chinese territory, Outer Manchuria was nothing more than Chinese Empire sphere of interest. It was NOT Chinese domestic territory. If anything, it was part of Qing Dynasty domestic territory, and Qing Dynasty... isn't exactly popular in Chinese historiography (they are presented as invaders and oppressors - and essentially they were).
 
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@Michel Van the idea of a Sino-Russian conflict has to be one of the biggest delusions peddled by US sponsored think tanks and outlets since 2022.

The Taiwan Question isn't one of economic factors, the Chinese semiconductor industry is well on the road to be superior to their southern neighbors not only in scale but also expertise. The PRC pours money into that sector with regards to research, development and industrial capacity that would make the eyes of many water. The Sino Defence Forum has an entire thread, if not multiple, dedicated to it.

The matter of fact is that de jure Taiwan isn't an independent country (legal definition, I won't enter the debate about the reality of it being an independent state and the nationalistic mudslinging associated with it). For the PRC they're a rebellious, technically illegal government that broke off from China proper following the Chinese Civil War. A rebelling province, led by the remnants of the enemies of a Civil War that led to many casualties. The Taiwanese government is a stain on the concept of modern Chinese national identity. Their proximity to the US just amplifies that.

For the PRC this can go two roads:

> the PRC continues as is and in a couple decades they're so much more prosperous that the Chinese on Taiwan want to willingly re-join the PRC.

Or

> If that is considered too lengthy of a process, they'll just crush the Taiwanese military and government with outright force and purge associated elements. Integrating the Island and population into the PRC anyway.

This is an ideological thing for them, a comparison easier to understand for the US would be if Confederate resistance established an independent state on Cuba. Sooner or later they would have been brought into the fold, for various reasons, mostly ideological though. Same thing here.

On the delusions of a Sino-Russian War, the idea of China attacking Russia is pretty deluded when one thinks for a second and realizes that the resources Russia has are something China can just buy on favorable terms on the market without having to start hostilities which would cost them more than they'd gain.

Both Russia and China are further unified by a single perceived, outside threat, being US led NATO, which makes no attempt to veil their goal of dismantling the ruling governments in Moscow and Beijing. And both are aware that if one falls the other will follow shortly. Which is why they support each other in numerous fields and proxy warfare.
 
Now tell that the people in said US cities and see how they react. Treating your civilian population as expendable isn't a viable strategy for a country that relies on said population for support in democratic elections.

The part of the U.S. government that plans to fight and win strategic nuclear wars isn't elected, thankfully.

Where would your B-2s even take off?

Whiteman. Tankers launch from Elmendorf-Richardson. Ingress leg over the Bering Sea into Manchuria and Mongolia through to Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia. Hit the silos. Turn around. Leave basically the same way you came in. Penetrating Counter Air/NGAD keeps the air corridor open. At the same time, every Jin and Tang at sea gets hit by its trailing SSN from SUBPAC.

Present an ultimatum to the CPC: we have destroyed your land and sea based missile forces. In 24 hours we'll start deleting cities. There's no real counter to this because the PRC doesn't believe in first use and still invests to minimum deterrence. This might be a strategic misstep.

PLARF would have reduced most airfields in second island chain to rubbles by then,

Yeah that'll be like the first 96 hours big whoop.

B-21 don't even have the range to strike Chinese mainland from beyond the second island chain without tanker support which will be dangerous in contested airspace.

In a war where you're readying for strategic nuclear combat, you pretty much expect a one way mission, and the return leg is mostly theoretical. Yeah they can probably land at Elmendorf or back at Whiteman or something. Maybe just bail out over the Bering Sea or Canada and we'll (probably) pick you up. Good luck airman!

If the outcome is the end of US global leadership either way, what's the point of waging this war with such ferocity?

Well, there's probably a less than even chance of Taiwan actually getting invaded, since the U.S. is matching Chinese buildups tit for tat (for now). One of the best outcomes of the 2023 wargames ran by DOD was that since it projected an escalation to nuclear use within a few weeks it ultimately spurred DAF to triple its missile inventory and increase production rates to arrest this.

You go from 4,700 missiles to ~11,000 missiles and from about 30-40 missiles/month to ~100 missiles/month. hat'll give a magazine depth of roughly three or four months, which should be enough to see trickle back from wartime production, and maybe even enough to preclude the allowing of tactical nuclear weapons against Chinese airbases. Who knows.

Whether that holds or not is an open question, but regardless the U.S. would be the first to use nukes in theater, and as time goes on that becomes increasingly less likely as the production rates and inventory of cruise missiles increase and conventional weapons proliferate to the point that it's unnecessary. JASSM is a pretty producible weapon and DAF is seeing a trebling of its inventory of them in about as many years (well, it would have, but JASSM has seen some delays).

As of about a week ago or so Lot 22 was signed which will see AGM-158D (JASSM-XR) entering production. The big multi-year procurement won't be finished before 2032 I think which will leave U.S. inventory at 10,950 JASSMs of varying ranges though. Still a goodly little number.

I think China will not invade Taiwan
because Taiwan government made everything ready to leave scorch earth in case of Invasion
China losing everything they try to gain: the semiconductor industry

It's more of a moral victory than an economic one.

That's why China if focusing on Taiwan, to deception from real goal RUSSIA

It's going to do this when it already has the trans-Siberian railroad and free trade on its side? It's far more likely the PRC tries (and perhaps succeeds?) to economically integrate the EU and Russia to form a coherent free trade bloc to rival NAFTA. This is what the U.S. admin fears most of all. Thankfully, the huge gaps in policy preferences that the EU and PRC face are insignificant compared to the "hard ball" diplomacy of USTR and The Hon. Scott Bessent it seems.

Naturally, if a small victory is good, we must seek a bigger one. Which is why we're back to talking about tariffs on the EU after the big deal. Keep that up and the Eurocrats might find reconcilliation with China over trade preferable to constantly losing money on U.S. sales.

while Russia forces are stuck in Ukraine, the Strategic weapons cripple and Moscow losing control over Siberia.
Is perfect moment for China to take with ease Russia Manchuria and parts of Siberia !

They can trade openly with the Russians. They're already wrecking Kamaz in its own backyard with cheap imports anyway.
 
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The matter of fact is that de jure Taiwan isn't an independent country (legal definition, I won't enter the debate about the reality of it being an independent state and the nationalistic mudslinging associated with it). For the PRC they're a rebellious, technically illegal government that broke off from China proper following the Chinese Civil War. A rebelling province, led by the remnants of the enemies of a Civil War that led to many casualties. The Taiwanese government is a stain on the concept of modern Chinese national identity. Their proximity to the US just amplifies that.
Exactly. And from Chinese point of view, the fact that USA didn't even recognize Taiwan anymore is especially egregious; essentially it's like "we admit that it's absolutely illegal, but you know what? We didn't care" attitude.
 
They can trade openly with the Russians. They're already wrecking Kamaz in its own backyard with cheap imports anyway.
They could but, not on long therm.

The reason is what Chinese call The Century of Humiliation 1850-1950
the Opiums wars, colonialism of wester powers (Hong Kong, Macau), Lost of Territory (Manchuria)
even down fall of Qin dynasty and Chinese Civil War and Invasion by Japan.
only under Mao Zedong, China return to Military power and since 1980s became a economic Super power.

But they never forgot the century of humiliation and they want pay back...
 
They could but, not on long therm.

I guess if Russia joins the EU they'll have a credible alternative. Ukraine is already a BRI hub anyway. Have the Europeans considered this?

Exactly. And from Chinese point of view, the fact that USA didn't even recognize Taiwan anymore is especially egregious; essentially it's like "we admit that it's absolutely illegal, but you know what? We didn't care" attitude.

I'm not sure what the point of saying this is since the PRC is a very easy scapegoat for a lot of U.S. domestic issues, much like how the U.S. is an easy scapegoat for Chinese domestic issues, so they seem mutually destined to at the very least stare at each other until someone breaks. More than likely one or the other will push the issue to war before that happens simply because Taiwan isn't Germany. It's not a foreign entity to both, like Korea would be, but rather an integral part of the PRC's national identity and the U.S. simply likes poking them about it.

War is likely inevitable, if not imminent, since there are a few windows. 2027-2032 is the upcoming one. The next one is probably 2037-2042 if nothing substantial changes, like the PRC has a Japan style economic growth collapse or the U.S. has a secession crisis, since that will be about when the USN's submarine forces hit their hull cliff.

Who knows what all the PRC's weaknesses are because successful autocracies are good at hiding those. They seem decent at deflecting or deferring them for now anyway, almost as good as the United States is at combating its own weaknesses, at least. The biggest hurdle they have to overcome is that they don't have any good modern military experience to draw on. They're a bit like North Korea in that regard.
 
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Well, there's probably a less than even chance of Taiwan actually getting invaded
The Taiwan battle is just the opening salvo, the problem is the long war or the nuclear war as the case may be. The US can match China missile for missile for now, but the Chinese can also match the US missile for missile, and possibly moreso. 10,000 JASSM is not going to meaningfully change the military balance across the strait given the scale of forces potentially arrayed against Taiwan; by the 2030s, the archers except B-21 are mostly going to be supremely vulnerable; multi percent sortie loss rates within the second island chain will be a given, so the planes won't last that much longer than the stockpile. At that point also the Chinese submarine force is also likely to markedly improve, and Chinese space-based megaconstellations will start coming online.

China declared its willingness to go to war over Taiwan even at the nadir of its relative power in the early 2000s, and it went through decades of diplomatic and economic isolation in defense of the One China policy through the 50s and 60s. I am not convinced that China will not attack just because the military balance is slightly less favorable, the political requirements to prevent "Taiwanese secessionism" are too great.

Overall, I am not convinced that a landing or blockade can be deterred as to give Taiwan unlimited freedom of political action, or conventionally defeated to the extent of rapid war termination. Beyond Taiwan, the game is much more in the USN's ballpark.

In the traditional conception of the Taiwan War, the Chinese invade Taiwan, the US blockades China from beyond the 1st and 2nd ICs, the experiment of reform and opening up ends, and China goes back to 1962 as the world's biggest Hermit Kingdom--this is presumably considered an acceptable political outcome by Beijing. Now if you go nuclear, all bets are off, and improving Chinese conventional forces and industrial mobilization capacity give China additional options.
 
Everything that is said here is also applicable to the invasion of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Sudetenland, Gibraltar, Texas, California... absolutely illegal? Are you kidding?

No invasion of this type is profitable if the opposition is determined enough and if the rest of the countries are scared enough to SERIOUSLY sanction the aggressor's economy.

Invading the weak neighbor with historical, religious or linguistic pretexts is always a sign of weakness (Falklands) of a political system with serious internal problems.

The best thing for the world is that these problems remain internal.
 

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Whiteman. Tankers launch from Elmendorf-Richardson. Ingress leg over the Bering Sea into Manchuria and Mongolia through to Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia. Hit the silos. Turn around. Leave basically the same way you came in. Penetrating Counter Air/NGAD keeps the air corridor open. At the same time, every Jin and Tang at sea gets hit by its trailing SSN from SUBPAC.

Present an ultimatum to the CPC: we have destroyed your land and sea based missile forces. In 24 hours we'll start deleting cities. There's no real counter to this because the PRC doesn't believe in first use and still invests to minimum deterrence. This might be a strategic misstep.
And then you woke up?

Your simply assuming PLA is simply just going to let these bombers fly in? or the PLAAF do nothing? Wow surely the entire PLAN is basically taking a nap right. Oh, and China's massive surveillance satellite and AEW network is just gone. Judging by the fact you assumed NGAD will be in service in big enough numbers to be relevant here hence it'll be the mid 2030s, how'd you intend to counter PLAN's 093B/095(Even if 095 does not appear for some reason and PLAN does not increase 093B construction rates there'll be ~40 of these by 2035) swarm in SCS or the AIP swarm? How'd you intend to counter PLAAF again? Are you assuming a smaller force of NGAD is somehow going to hold for useful amount of time against a numerically superior enemy with heavy backend support? or how'd you counter a possibly numerically and technologically superior PLAN surface fleet with massive underwater support? Chinese nuclear weapon stockpile is projected to reach 1000 warheads by 2030 with possibility of increasing beyond that how'd you intend to take all of these out in a single strike? Their system and doctrine rely on second strike survivability yet you're assuming all of their planners are idiots and didn't think of this or possible counters?

Also, if since we are already in the 2030s, what's stopping swarms of H-20s from counter bombing the US? From that statement by a PLAAF official last year, he said H-20s will be procured in large numbers very soon after the reveal.
 
For the PRC this is an internal, inner-Chinese problem that they plan on solving one way or another.
The Soviet Union had numerous internal problems that the party's doctrine could not solve, so one of the oldest members of the politburo took out of his pocket an old revolutionary manual and on page 193 read: "if all else does not work it will be necessary to internationalize the conflict." Then they made the decision to invade Afghanistan.

The rest of the planet does not care whether it is an internal problem, if a large country eats a defenseless neighbor everyone will shout: Hitler! Because they have been well trained in pattern recognition.

Is it worth making a senseless display of brute force to subdue thousands of people who do not want to belong to a dictatorship?

What do you think you are going to achieve with that?

The countries surrounding the invader are already scared enough and of course they are not going to form any kind of military coalition that is too obvious.

What they will do is take all kinds of economic measures so as not to depend on the exports of the invading country and censure the attitude of any country that does not support this policy of containment.

Then the only two alternatives will be: implosion or continue invading. That takes us to Japan in the 30s and everyone knows how this story ended.
 
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It does look like some countries cannot solve their own problems and have to intervene in the behavior of rival countries, of course, I am not talking about the United States. In addition, with a little friendly reminder, this is just a preset scenario that has already started a war, and it is better to talk about the measures that the U.S. Navy may implement and China's possible actions. It is also very good to point out the equipment that the United States and China may use.
 
What they will do is take all kinds of economic measures so as not to depend on the exports of the invading country and censure the attitude of any country that does not support this policy of containment.
If forced to choose between Taiwan and the world, it is not improbable that Beijing will choose Taiwan, because that's what it did from the 1950s through to the late 1960s until the Nixon era, during which time it had no formal relations with the United States. Its return to relations with the United States was predicated on the One China policy being accepted by Washington. China survived thirty years of isolation at near-subsistence levels while diametrically opposed to the "Soviet Revisionists", with modern technology, reasonable weapons and adequate relations with the Russians, surely it will survive thirty years more (at least, so goes the propaganda line).

The decades will pass, the world will turn, the alignments will shift, the global balance of power will tilt, and the day will come when the world needs China once more. There will always be more Nixons, more Kissingers - if not from the West, then from the North, South and East. China can wait.

I think Beijing knows the score, and the immense costs of taking Taiwan by force. It is probably willing to bear those costs if it appears that the political situation is untenable or red lines are irrevocably crossed, or at least gives strong signals to that effect as part of its posture and messaging.

An invasion of Taiwan cannot possibly be profitable, it is just regrettably politically necessary. Ultimately, it depends on the DPP and the people of Taiwan.

=/=

Now, this calculus is dramatically affected by US willingness to go nuclear over Taiwan. China can survive decadal blockade; it cannot survive decadal blockade and nuclear war.
 
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The rest of the planet does not care whether it is an internal problem, if a large country eats a defenseless neighbor everyone will shout: Hitler! Because they have been well trained in pattern recognition.
I think you're missing the point so I'll reiterate a bit more clearly now:

For the PRC and to most countries from a legal POV this isn't "a neighbor", Taiwan is China. And not in "yeah, duh it's the Republic of China", no. The People's Republic of China is the widely recognized "China" and not even the US themselves views Taiwan as an independent, sovereign state from a legal point of view.

De jure this wouldn't be an invasion of a sovereign neighbor, it would be the PRC dealing with separatists more or less. And in a way that's rather apt because because the nationalist government on Taiwan are more or less seperatists, with the socialists that rule in mainland China holding more legitimacy in representing the Chinese people. Both claim to be China, but only one is widely recognized as such, and it isn't the small island nation.

That's what makes this case rather different from many others around the world. The closest thing is recent memory might be Ukrainian Forces trying to put down the separatist movements in Donetsk and Luhansk. Where that ended, well, we all know. And the Taiwan question has similar blow-up potential. Just that Taiwan themselves have a derelict military infested by spies and small in size. So Taiwan is at more of a disadvantage than Ukraine was, while China is in a better position than Russia was. And geography is also playing into the hands of the PRC. That overwhelming advantage is why the US has to make thinly veiled threats and commit to the bit. Otherwise it's a clear signal to everyone that China has enough muscle to just force the US out of a potential involvement. That pressure on the US is what makes the whole Taiwan thing primed to one day blow up if military intervention is chosen over simply outliving the ROC from a mainland Chinese POV. And that POV isn't to be underestimated imo. The Chinese are very familiar with the concept of patience, it's an old nation.
 
Your simply assuming PLA is simply just going to let these bombers fly in?

You don't really stop them unless you launch first with a strategic attack on the U.S. heartland.

Last I checked the PRC has a explicit no first use policy.

or the PLAAF do nothing?

Who said they would do nothing? The point is whatever they do likely won't matter.

Oh, and China's massive surveillance satellite and AEW network is just gone.

Iran had a substantial one too. It didn't really help even against the fairly weakly stealthy F-35.

Judging by the fact you assumed NGAD will be in service in big enough numbers to be relevant here hence it'll be the mid 2030s, how'd you intend to counter PLAN's 093B/095(Even if 095 does not appear for some reason and PLAN does not increase 093B construction rates there'll be ~40 of these by 2035) swarm in SCS or the AIP swarm?

I suspect the war will happen long before 2035, and likely within the next few years, actually.

How'd you intend to counter PLAAF again?

That's not the right question.

The question is what capabilities does the PLAAF have, that other air defense forces like the Soviet PVO didn't, that lets them stop the B-2s. The answer is "not much". A large orbital layer of SBIRS-LO type sensors may be effective, unless the B-2 does that thing it is designed to do and flies very low to the ground below the clouds, I guess. Orbital and over-the-horizon detection systems were factored in when B-2 was designed.

Are you assuming a smaller force of NGAD is somehow going to hold for useful amount of time against a numerically superior enemy with heavy backend support? or how'd you counter a possibly numerically and technologically superior PLAN surface fleet with massive underwater support?

"Technologically superior" it isn't. In some areas, it's parity. In most, it's behind. But not by much. Only about 30 years or so.

Chinese nuclear weapon stockpile is projected to reach 1000 warheads by 2030 with possibility of increasing beyond that how'd you intend to take all of these out in a single strike?

With a lot of small bombs that can be packed in large numbers in a big stealth bomber. You don't need to take them all out. You simply need to destroy enough that when they launch, and they will, the ABM system in place can degrade it enough to make your losses less than the enemy's. That's how you win a strategic nuclear war, which is the end point of escalation between a US-PRC war over Taiwan, and a pretty slim possibility (but possible nonetheless).

There isn't really anything the PRC has that keeps the U.S. from "escalating to de-escalate" to put it another way.

Their system and doctrine rely on second strike survivability yet you're assuming all of their planners are idiots and didn't think of this or possible counters?

I think they'll eventually get there but not in the next couple of years. We can check back in 10-15 years when the U.S. has more B-21s.

Also, if since we are already in the 2030s,

I think as time goes on the risk of war between the US and PRC will drop, as the PRC gains capabilities closer to the U.S., thus raising the costs of war. For now it's a very rough window because the PRC is reaching parity with the U.S. in a lot of areas like hull numbers and regional fleet strength. In the latter half of the next decade, the U.S. will be dipping below parity, which is the other dangerous period.

Right now the USN can only meaningfully contribute to the joint battle using submarine forces and missiles like LRASM or CPS. In the future it may not contribute with submarine forces in the SCS, or it may only provide strategic nuclear capability with the SSBNs, depending on how developed the PLAN gets. It will still have a lot of horizontal escalation capability, that the PLAN will never be able to match because it lacks the global empire of the U.S., though.

The horizontal escalation capacity likely won't disappear until after the war since a stronger China is frightening to its neighbors.

Now this could all be irrelevant if, say, the ROC surrenders after a week while the U.S. waits and watches (al a successful Ukraine SMO) or it peacefully merges with the PRC. Then the U.S. retreats to the Second Island Chain and the PRC does...whatever the PRC is going to do when it achieves victory, I'm not sure even they really know, tbh. They'll have a lot of military muscle to throw around and not much to point it at if they don't have a Gotterdammerung with the U.S.

what's stopping swarms of H-20s from counter bombing the US?

That would be an excellent counterweight on the "balance of terror" and effective deterrent. Shame they don't exist!
 
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Everything that is said here is also applicable to the invasion of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Sudetenland, Gibraltar, Texas, California... absolutely illegal? Are you kidding?
There is a big difference between invading a disputed territory - and suppressing a rebellion on the territory that EVERYONE agrees is rightfully yours. Basically all of the world (including USA) recognize Taiwan as part of China. Which turn the situation from international conflict into internal one.
 
If forced to choose between Taiwan and the world, it is not improbable that Beijing will choose Taiwan, because that's what it did from the 1950s through to the late 1960s until the Nixon era, during which time it had no formal relations with the United States. Its return to relations with the United States was predicated on the One China policy being accepted by Washington. China survived thirty years of isolation at near-subsistence levels while diametrically opposed to the "Soviet Revisionists", with modern technology, reasonable weapons and adequate relations with the Russians, surely it will survive thirty years more (at least, so goes the propaganda line).

The decades will pass, the world will turn, the alignments will shift, the global balance of power will tilt, and the day will come when the world needs China once more. There will always be more Nixons, more Kissingers - if not from the West, then from the North, South and East. China can wait.

I think Beijing knows the score, and the immense costs of taking Taiwan by force. It is probably willing to bear those costs if it appears that the political situation is untenable or red lines are irrevocably crossed, or at least gives strong signals to that effect as part of its posture and messaging.

An invasion of Taiwan cannot possibly be profitable, it is just regrettably politically necessary. Ultimately, it depends on the DPP and the people of Taiwan.

=/=

Now, this calculus is dramatically affected by US willingness to go nuclear over Taiwan. China can survive decadal blockade; it cannot survive decadal blockade and nuclear war.
According to an ancient Greek fable, Helios and Aeolus argued over which of the two was more powerful. Athena, goddess of wisdom, strategy and just war proposed the following challenge.

From the heights of Olympus he pointed to a lone traveler walking in the rain and said, "The mightiest among you will be the one who succeeds in snatching the cloak from that mortal."

Aeolus blew and blew but the traveler only reacted by wrapping himself more tightly in his cloak, then Helios shone with all his glory and the traveler, grateful, took off his cloak.
 
Aeolus blew and blew but the traveler only reacted by wrapping himself more tightly in his cloak, then Helios shone with all his glory and the traveler, grateful, took off his cloak.
Indeed, that would be the ideal outcome, and Chinese policy has long been geared towards it as Plan A.

But when the traveller is unwilling to take off his cloak regardless of the radiance of the sun, what can you do but blow harder?
 
Iran had a substantial one too. It didn't really help even against the fairly weakly stealthy F-35.
I can't even start to explain you, how wrong is to compare Iranian air defense network (which NEVER was advanced or tight) with Chinese...
 
There is a big difference between invading a disputed territory - and suppressing a rebellion on the territory that EVERYONE agrees is rightfully yours. Basically all of the world (including USA) recognize Taiwan as part of China. Which turn the situation from international conflict into internal one.
That is not entirely accurate, first the international community, including the United States, recognized Taiwan and then reluctantly accepted that China was part of Taiwan. That is the way for the United Nations to "solve" the serious problems of the world. Pretty stupid stuff, don't you think?
 
The question is what capabilities does the PLAAF have, that other air defense forces like the Soviet PVO didn't, that lets them stop the B-2s. The answer is "not much". A large orbital layer of SBIRS-LO type sensors may be effective, unless the B-2 does that thing it is designed to do and flies very low to the ground below the clouds, I guess. Orbital and over-the-horizon detection systems were factored in when B-2 was designed.
You have no real idea how stealth worked, aren't you?
 
and it is better to talk about the measures that the U.S. Navy may implement and China's possible actions.

Retreat out of missile range and hope of not being in a port somewhere in Japan. Rather easy, innit?

On a more serious note, warplanning for that sort of thing is pretty complex, especially depending on where you set the time frame, as that will have you work with different assets. Generally speaking however the further down the timeline we go, the bigger becomes the advantage the PLAN has. And it already could operated from an advantageous position now. I can't emphasize enough what an outrageous advantage and outright luxury it is for them to threaten plenty of immediate and intermediate targets with the PLAAF and PLARF as well. It equates to a lone (partial) USN and the remnants of the JMSDF having to face off against the entire PLAN (not split up around the world like the USN), the entire PLAAF (we're talking several hundred Flankers, several hundred J-10, several hundred J-20s right now, tankers, AEW&C, ELINT you name it!) and the PLARF and the colorful arsenal of missiles of various ranges, flight envelopes and speeds they operate.

It's like trying to break into someone's backyard, expecting perhaps a golden retriever but instead you broke your ankle climbing the fence and now you are being mauled by three Rottweilers that are on a crystal meth and raw meat diet.

Unless the US pumps out AB Flight IIIs like crazy now, we're talking like getting 2-3 perhaps even 4 ships into the water per year to make up for retirements and growing the fleet. Gets DDG(X) rolling, gets the Fords done quicker and finally get F-35s on them, get the Virginia's upgraded, gets the Columbias into the water (less relevant unless all out nuclear war tbh), pulls their head out of their ass with regards to F/A-XX, gets the MQ-25 onto carriers, shipyards going, maintenance on schedule, more recruits, retaining more personelle. If all of that happen, then the USN might have a chance to come out of such an ordeal in a manner one would call victorious. If they drag their feet further, the fleet getting smaller, older, worse in shape, ships taking longer to construct, more expensive, fewer people signing up, more leaving, the necessary programs not approved or funded...well then they might as just stay home and stop pretending, it's embarrassing.
 
That is not entirely accurate, first the international community, including the United States, recognized Taiwan and then reluctantly accepted that China was part of Taiwan. That is the way for the United Nations to "solve" the serious problems of the world. Pretty stupid stuff, don't you think?
The whole point is, that they did not recognize it NOW. Past recognition means nothing.
 
Pretty stupid stuff, don't you think?
And yet the One China policy was a precondition for Chinese diplomatic relations with the world at a time when China was much, much poorer and weaker than today, and the Chinese have applied immense diplomatic and economic pressure to defend the One China policy for the past fifty years.
 
Indeed, that would be the ideal outcome, and Chinese policy has long been geared towards it as Plan A.

But when the traveller is unwilling to take off his cloak regardless of the radiance of the sun, what can you do but blow harder?
Ask the traveler why he does not want to take off his cape, in the West we call that elections.
 
I am also concerned about that, possibly some leaders think that the case of Ukraine should be considered a civil war rather than an invasion of a neighboring country.
Don’t want to get into politics, but, unfortunately it is also a civil war.

The west of Ukraine is mostly pro-West, however the 4 regions that Russia is looking to annex (and not only those), they are the ones that are all mainly filo-Russians.

Doesn’t help that the last choices of Zelenskyy greatly reduced even more his popularity
 
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And yet the One China policy was a precondition for Chinese diplomatic relations with the world at a time when China was much, much poorer and weaker than today, and the Chinese have applied immense diplomatic and economic pressure to defend the One China policy for the past fifty years.
If during the last fifty years they had devoted all that pressure to internal reforms, millions of people throughout the world would want to be incorporated into the celestial empire. But the persistence in maintaining and exporting economic and internal security systems that have been failing for more than seventy years in all their forms, in all countries and in all cultures cannot end well.
 
The question is what capabilities does the PLAAF have, that other air defense forces like the Soviet PVO didn't, that lets them stop the B-2s.
With all due respect, I think you're putting too much trust and emphasis on less than 20 aircraft from the 1980s in a theoretical peer conflict where you have a, excuse my wording here, metric fuck ton of radars on the ground, air and sea, all operating at different levels, frequencies, bearings, power etc. etc.

The likelihood of getting one of these 19 (are even all 19 operational at a given time? I'd expect availability would be below 100% tbh) through to any important target is unlikely, the network of sensors, radars and assets buzzing around, especially near anything valuable, would be just way too dense. The best bet would be just launching AGM-158s at stand off ranges, but then the missiles themselves would have to make it through. China isn't Iran, China isn't even Russia, which is as far removed from Iran as Russia itself is from China in that regard. I cannot stress this enough what an absolute uphill battle that would be right now. And less than 20 B-2s are a drop on the hot stone. That fact is also known to the USAF, which is why they want preferably over 100 B-21s. I still wouldn't fly these over a peer adversary, but with well over 100 more capable aircraft you can at least generate usable sortie rates for closer and thus more useful missile launches, which exerts more pressure.
 
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