MBDA Future Cruise / Anti-Ship Weapon (FC / ASW)

TylrrTylrr said:
does anyone else think this is slightly overkill for SEAD? RJ10 is likely to cost a lot so I do not see this swarming a SAM site.
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Depends what SEAD....

If you include shooting down AWACS at extreme range, or destroying a large radar station then no....but these are going to be very expensive and won't be around in large numbers...

But...destroying S-400? You might get 1 of the 2 radars, but without a cluster munition warhead you're unlikely to get much more...

As a 'golden bullet' it makes some sense, but realistically you would need more, and cheaper, missiles/munitions for other targets.

The UK has this covered to an extent with Spear/Spear-EW, but that doesn't give you real speed. Not sure what the French plan is as Smartglider will have too short a range for the sort of AD targets you really want to kill.

Obviously the sensible solution, alongside RJ10 and TP15, would be a new 'Armiger' based on the Meteor propulsion unit.
 
timmymagic said:
Depends what SEAD....

If you include shooting down AWACS at extreme range, or destroying a large radar station then no....but these are going to be very expensive and won't be around in large numbers...

But...destroying S-400? You might get 1 of the 2 radars, but without a cluster munition warhead you're unlikely to get much more...
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Or an pantsir /Buk Unit. There a lot of possible options which could require SEAD or DEAD.
 
timmymagic said:
Depends what SEAD....

If you include shooting down AWACS at extreme range, or destroying a large radar station then no....but these are going to be very expensive and won't be around in large numbers...

But...destroying S-400? You might get 1 of the 2 radars, but without a cluster munition warhead you're unlikely to get much more...
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Yeah, it really takes cluster munitions to effectively SEAD or DEAD these days due to datalinks allowing a distant radar to guide missiles from a whole separate battery.

Okay, thermobarics might work, I doubt many TELs/radars can survive the overpressure.
 
So the supersonic missile is basically a new conventional ASMP, since he specifically mentioned French know-how on this type of propulsion. So it's not Bayern-Chemie's meteor propulsion

Hopefully we'll at least get the subsonic version integrated on F-35 aswell for European users.
 
timmymagic said:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnETaHe0G0c
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Some good detail confirmed, nothing that we haven't surmised or guessed, but its rare for MBDA to actually speak much about FCASW.

So...

Land Attack
Anti-Shipping
SEAD/DEAD
Anti-HVAA (High Value Air Assets)

Video seems to imply multi-fuzed warheads, with airburst capability. 2 way datalink, networked (possibly Orchestrike) for both missiles.

Mk.41 and Sylver (presumably A70 or A70NG) VL integration for the stealthy, subsonic TP15 variant (there has been some confusion around that before) with Passive RF system, penetrating warhead, exceptional range must mean turbofan from RR/Safran. You'd have to think there needs to be an IIR there as well for the networked BDI capability at least...

RJ10 has active radar seeker, no other guidance modes mentioned, this was expected as a result of the anti-HVAA role. Throttleable ramjet?

Typhoon, Rafale, SCAF and GCAP integration. But no mention of F-35...
 
I just realised that with the Anti-HVAA role, we're potentially looking at a 600km range AAM (assuming the range for RJ10 is comparable to ASMPA-R). And given the engine is throttleable, potentially a loitering SEAD missile - ALARM v2.0.
 
timmymagic said:
So...

Land Attack
Anti-Shipping
SEAD/DEAD
Anti-HVAA (High Value Air Assets)

Video seems to imply multi-fuzed warheads, with airburst capability.
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I'm wondering if they're going to need multiple warhead options, you can only get so far with smart fuzing.

Land Attack - they really need a penetrator warhead to match BROACH on Stormshadow.
Anti-Shipping - blast frag, potentially with the radial shaped charges seen on other SSMs.
SEAD/DEAD - needs to be an area-effect, blast-frag can just about cover it, but cluster weapons probably better
Anti-HVAA - frag, or expanding rod

And while blast-frag can just about cover everything, particular with a precursor warhead, the optimal size of fragments and direction of blast are different for the different roles.

I'm reminded that the French did originally want different warhead options on Apache
 
DWG said:
I'm wondering if they're going to need multiple warhead options, you can only get so far with smart fuzing.

Land Attack - they really need a penetrator warhead to match BROACH on Stormshadow.
Anti-Shipping - blast frag, potentially with the radial shaped charges seen on other SSMs.
SEAD/DEAD - needs to be an area-effect, blast-frag can just about cover it, but cluster weapons probably better
Anti-HVAA - frag, or expanding rod

And while blast-frag can just about cover everything, particular with a precursor warhead, the optimal size of fragments and direction of blast are different for the different roles.

I'm reminded that the French did originally want different warhead options on Apache
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Might be able to get away with a frag sleeve around the follow through charge of the BROACHoid and clever fuzing tbh
 
DWG said:
I'm wondering if they're going to need multiple warhead options, you can only get so far with smart fuzing.

Land Attack - they really need a penetrator warhead to match BROACH on Stormshadow.
Anti-Shipping - blast frag, potentially with the radial shaped charges seen on other SSMs.
SEAD/DEAD - needs to be an area-effect, blast-frag can just about cover it, but cluster weapons probably better
Anti-HVAA - frag, or expanding rod

And while blast-frag can just about cover everything, particular with a precursor warhead, the optimal size of fragments and direction of blast are different for the different roles.
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I was thinking probably they'll keep the Broach precursor warhead for the stealthy subsonic land-attack variant (TP15)?

And for the supersonic RJ10 one option might be to replace the Broach precursor with 2 smaller terminally guided submunitions like on the Perseus concept... this would be especially useful for anti-ship and SEAD/DEAD roles.

1335637404_concept-visions-1326365146.jpg
 
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H_K said:
And for the supersonic RJ10 one option might be to replace the Broach precursor with 2 smaller terminally guided submunitions like on the Perseus concept... this would be especially useful for anti-ship and SEAD/DEAD roles.
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I thought the Perseus approach had been dropped.
 
I think that the Perseus missile has been dropped DWG in favour of the FC/ASW.
 
DWG said:
I'm wondering if they're going to need multiple warhead options, you can only get so far with smart fuzing.

Land Attack - they really need a penetrator warhead to match BROACH on Stormshadow.
Anti-Shipping - blast frag, potentially with the radial shaped charges seen on other SSMs.
SEAD/DEAD - needs to be an area-effect, blast-frag can just about cover it, but cluster weapons probably better
Anti-HVAA - frag, or expanding rod

And while blast-frag can just about cover everything, particular with a precursor warhead, the optimal size of fragments and direction of blast are different for the different roles.

I'm reminded that the French did originally want different warhead options on Apache
Click to expand...
Not all of the Land Attack missiles will need the BROACH warhead, but I agree that a fairly large % would.

I believe that all the others could be done with a single blast frag warhead.

If you could put a frag sleeve around the following charge of BROACH, that might allow a single missile to do all the jobs. If given sufficiently smart fuzing.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Not all of the Land Attack missiles will need the BROACH warhead, but I agree that a fairly large % would.

I believe that all the others could be done with a single blast frag warhead.

If you could put a frag sleeve around the following charge of BROACH, that might allow a single missile to do all the jobs. If given sufficiently smart fuzing.
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The shaped charge can also have an frag sleeve .....
 
Sad that Perseus was never picked up by the UK/France as it would have been a phenomenal missile for a potential adversary to try to avoid being that its top speed was to have been hypersonic, obviously now that we have two missiles one with supersonic speed and the other being subsonic and also having stealth capabilities like Storm Shadow that is what the UK/France have now gone for instead.
 
NMaude said:
I think it's a pity that the ANS never went into production.
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I agree. It would have given the european ships an incomparable asset.

Another argument against was that such a missile couldn't be sold to some customers.... reducing the market. So it was decided to developp further the Exocet familly.
 
Smaller than I was expecting, especially since the other mock-ups had a longer, more flattened missile. I wonder about range - is there concrete information on the range expected from the TP15? The Storm Shadow offers 500km of reach, which, whilst decent in an air-launched role, isn't great for a ship-launched land attack missile. I'm interested to see how they've improved the range for this system.
 

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