Larger British light fleet carriers?

Instead the Arromanches was kept in service until 1974 as a "swiss knife carrier": LPH, ASW, training, hospital / crisis ship...
David Hobbs makes an argument that it was silly of the Admiralty not to have retained a couple of Colossus/Majestic-class carriers as helicopter carriers instead of the Escort Cruiser concept that he pretty well lambasts on several counts.
There is some merit in that refitting two of these would have been better than converting Tiger and Blake but even so the Centaur Commando conversions were probably still superior given the additional room for accommodation. And given the manpower issues its likely the RN couldn't keep Antique Royal, four Centaurs and two Colossi going through the 1970s so something has to give.
This discussion has come up elsewhere at different times. The problem is that the decision about converting Tiger & Blake to helicopter carriers was taken in 1963. Any decision about retaining the Colossus/Majestic class has to be taken back around 1955/56. Why? Because it was then that decisions were taken about their future and by 1963 many didn't exist or had been sold to other navies or were in such poor state as to make conversion very expensive.

Glory laid up in June 1956 and put on disposal list in 1957
Ocean finished her training ship duties and laid up in Jan 1958, having been put on the disposal list in 1957.
Theseus finished her training ship duties in Jan 1957 and put on the disposal list.
All three scrapped 1961-62.

Warrior sold to Argentina 1958. (Probably the best of the lot as she had been given a strengthened and angled flight deck)
Vengeance sold to Brazil in Dec 1956 (reconstructed in Rotterdam until entering service in Dec 1960)
Triumph converted to a repair ship converted to a repair ship 1958-1965 (completion delayed as conversion of Albion to a commando carrier took precedence)

Magnificent returned from Canada in 1957 and, according to Hobbs, left in unmaintained reserve until put on the disposal list in 1961 and scrapped in 1965.

Leviathan was 80% complete when work stopped in April 1946. She had then spent the next 15 years alongside the harbour wall in Portsmouth until being transferred to a buoy in Fareham Creek in 1961 in unmaintained reserve. Before she lost her boilers and engines to Karel Doorman in 1966 (KD's refit completed in 1968) she had been plundered for spare parts for other ships of the same era, not necessarily via official channels.

Around 1960 questions were being asked in Parliament about Leviathan. That revealed the MoD was spending approx £7k per year on her ( this would seem to be before she transferred out to the buoy). As to future use when asked about using her as a helicopter / commando carrier, the reply was that that was not being considered as the decision had been taken to use Albion as it was larger. Albion’s conversion began in Jan 1961.

The problem with converting these ships was that they lacked the modern radars and command and control facilities present from completion in Tiger & Blake.

Mention is often made of Ocean & Theseus which had been used in the commando role at Suez. This is what I have written about them previously:-

"From July 1954 both ships were training ships, replacing Indefatigable and Implacable respectively in the RN Training Squadron. That involved part of their hangars being converted into classrooms. They were also used as temporary troopships.


At the beginning of 1956 they got a regular 4 month refit that added a limited ability to operate a few helicopters. In mid-June that year they each embarked 4 Sikorsky built Whirlwind HAS.22 of 845 Squadron. At this time 845 was the trials and development unit for AS helicopters in the RN. They were aboard for 2.5 weeks. By August both ships were again involved in moving troops to the Med due to the Suez Crisis. Then, after some to-ing and fro-ing over exactly what they were to be used for, they were then assigned a new role as helicopter carriers.


At the end of Sept / beginning of Oct 1956 Theseus embarked 12 Whirlwinds of 845 squadron while Ocean embarked some more from 845 and also the RAF Joint (Experimental) Helicopter Unit with Westland built Whirlwind HAR2 and Bristol Sycamore HC12/14. These were to be used in the commando role so a few exercises took place in the UK before they sailed for Malta and more exercises with 45 Commando before the assault on Port Said on 6 Nov. By Christmas 1956 they were both back home with Theseus having dropped 845 off in Malta.

In January 1957 Theseus paid off and was put up for sale before being scrapped 11/61. Ocean went back to the Training Squadron before paying off 1/58 and being put for sale before scrapping in 1962."
 
I think P1154 even in its RAF version would have been a difficult, even impossible, plane to get into service. This has been discussed at length in various threads here.
That leaves the following options:
Sea Vixen with improved missiles and radar.
P1127 developed earlier than in real life.
F8 Crusader variants.
Jaguar M.

Even if the RN were able to find a suitable fighter, the aircraft numbers for the two ships likely to be available would be much smaller than the RN wanted either for East of Suez or the North Atlantic.

The catapults on Bulwark, Albion and Hermes were removed because the RN disliked operating fast jets and groups of helicopters together.
If the catapults had been retained, eapecially on Hermes after 1971, it might have opened up the option of keeping Gannets for AEW
 
I think P1154 even in its RAF version would have been a difficult, even impossible, plane to get into service. This has been discussed at length in various threads here.
That leaves the following options:
Sea Vixen with improved missiles and radar.
P1127 developed earlier than in real life.
F8 Crusader variants.
Jaguar M.

Even if the RN were able to find a suitable fighter, the aircraft numbers for the two ships likely to be available would be much smaller than the RN wanted either for East of Suez or the North Atlantic.

The catapults on Bulwark, Albion and Hermes were removed because the RN disliked operating fast jets and groups of helicopters together.
If the catapults had been retained, eapecially on Hermes after 1971, it might have opened up the option of keeping Gannets for AEW
The BH.5 Hydraulic Catapults on Albion & Bulwark were only capable of launching aircraft of up to 30,000lb at 75 knots. That is enough for the Gannet but not the likes of Sea Vixen. So there is major work needed to replace them with something more powerful.

Centaur was refitted with BS.4 Steam Catapults 139ft long rated at 40,000lb (probably upgraded to 50,000lb) at 94 knots.

Hermes had 1x175ft & 1x151ft BS.4 rated at 50,000lb at 94 knots.
 
I think the plant and boilers were the obvious thing that forced a rethink. I vaguely reccal they had to stop the rebuild and strip Victorious back to do that, and it may well be they realised that would also be what the other Illustriouses needed.
In that light the whole program becomes very questionable and new build more necessary.

The argument between DAW and DNC over Trade Protection CVs using the Colossus/Majestic hull didn't deliver enough capability.

The Centaurs didn't quite deliver enough, even the cheaper Medium Fleet Carrier wasn't enough.
 
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This discussion has come up elsewhere at different times. The problem is that the decision about converting Tiger & Blake to helicopter carriers was taken in 1963. Any decision about retaining the Colossus/Majestic class has to be taken back around 1955/56. Why? Because it was then that decisions were taken about their future and by 1963 many didn't exist or had been sold to other navies or were in such poor state as to make conversion very expensive.
Agreed, that is the other fundamental point. The Escort Cruiser studies began around 1960/61 but by then they had been disposed of.
The Escort Cruiser was meant to offer some shore firepower and provide additional Sea Slug cover too - something the Colossus/Majestic could not have done. There was a brief mid-50s flirtation with rebuilding Colossus/Majestic hulls into Sea Slug missile cruisers but the result was a Frankenstein (if superior to the Counties in air defence capability).
 
Could P.1154s been based and flown on, say, HMS Hermes ?
I don't know, but if it could, it would also have been possible for Victorious to operate it and possibly Centaur as well.

Both ships had steam catapults of similar power to Hermes. Both ships had flight decks and arrester gear that were stressed for aircraft of the same weight and with the same landing speed as Hermes.
How many could it carry ?
It's folded dimensions were the same as a Sea Vixen. So a one-to-one substitution aught to be possible.

As far as I can remember Hermes operated 8 Sea Vixens after her 1964-66 refit, while Centaur was operating 12 Sea Vixens in her final years of service and Victorious had a squadron of 10-12 Sea Vixens.

So that's 8 P.1154s on Hermes, 12 on Centaur and 10-12 on Victorious.

P.1154 and Phantom were of about the same length, but the former had a folded wingspan of about 22 feet and the latter had one of about 27 feet. The reduction isn't large enough to allow more aircraft to be stored in the hangars of Ark Royal and Eagle, but it might allow more aircraft to be accommodated in the deck parks.
 
On the subject of the P.1154.

As far as I know the P.1154RN in both its forms (i.e. with a single BS.100 or two Speys) was to have been catapult launched.

How was it going to land? Would it land vertically or would it have been an arrested recovery?
 
On the subject of the P.1154.

As far as I know the P.1154RN in both its forms (i.e. with a single BS.100 or two Speys) was to have been catapult launched.

How was it going to land? Would it land vertically or would it have been an arrested recovery?
That along with catapult launch is part of why there was such divergence between RAF and FAA versions
 
On the subject of the P.1154.

As far as I know the P.1154RN in both its forms (i.e. with a single BS.100 or two Speys) was to have been catapult launched.

How was it going to land? Would it land vertically or would it have been an arrested recovery?
That along with catapult launch is part of why there was such divergence between RAF and FAA versions
By "that" do you mean an arrested recovery rather than landing vertically?
 
Yes. I vaguely reccal something about 1,000lbs for 'navalisation' (cat and trap), 1,000lb for the wingfold and something like 1,500lb or more for the second seat.

FAA insisted in ignoring the whole V/STOL system and demanding strengthening for catapult launch and arrestor recovery.

Coupled with a much higher emphasis on Fighter missions, endurance, Anti-ship and altitude. This drove the P.1154 RN version further and further away from commonality with the RAF version.

Then consider the avionics. RAF version with yet another AI.23 development for TFR and limited Intercept with Red Top. But all achievable well within schedule.

RN version with FMICW set (not Foxhunter) and new SARH AAM would be much later. Interim Red Top at best. But unless they built the first 30 or so with a bigger dish AI.23 variant, there wasn't any way to get a domestic solution in time.

And after 1963, time they don't think they have.
F4 with Sparrow III was NOW (1963-64) and they got sold on a cheap and cheerful shoe in with higher thrust Spey to make it viable from Ark and Eagle.
£1.2 million per plane honest Guv!

They didn't know deliveries would start the year they were supposed to complete and come in at £3.5 million per plane.

However.....force RAF to accept P.1154RN for future fighter. Accept limited run of interim AI.23 and Red Top and then commonality rules OK....ish
Especially if you can demonstrate STOL operations and rolling VL on carriers with RAF version......
If recoil below 60kts it's a completely different story for RN thinking.

Irony...
F35B is doing just that now.
 
P.1154 and Phantom were of about the same length, but the former had a folded wingspan of about 22 feet and the latter had one of about 27 feet. The reduction isn't large enough to allow more aircraft to be stored in the hangars of Ark Royal and Eagle, but it might allow more aircraft to be accommodated in the deck parks.
According to Navypedia, Eagle in 1966 went to sea with 16 Sea Vixens, plus four Scimitars, in addition to her Buccaneer squadron. I was able to confirm this here.

Ark only ever carried 14 Sea Vixens, for the record.
 
As I have said elsewhere the answer to getting a fighter on Centaur/Hermes/ 1957 carrier is not P1154 or BAC583 it is the AFVG which should have been started earlier and also as a Lightning replacement.
 
Thing is UK VG is ahead of French efforts, even if the French actually produce hardware in prototype form later on.

At the time UK firms were sketching VG schemes. French aviation firms were sensibly focused on blown wings like Mirage F2, F3 and F1.

That said AFVG could be accelerated if say the Medway, BS.58 (Straight through Pegasus) or Spey were used on Mirage G.
 
At the time UK firms were sketching VG schemes. French aviation firms were sensibly focused on blown wings like Mirage F2, F3 and F1.

Between 1962 and 1966 Dassault was mostly busy with VSTOL - turning a Mirage III-01 into the Balzac V and then the two beasts of VSTOL Mirages - III-V-01 and III-V-02.

The VSTOL craze ran until November 1966 when the second III-V slammed into the ground. Unlike the Balzac it didn't killed the pilot.

Thing is UK VG is ahead of French efforts, even if the French actually produce hardware in prototype form later on.

At the time UK firms were sketching VG schemes. French aviation firms were sensibly focused on blown wings like Mirage F2, F3 and F1.

That said AFVG could be accelerated if say the Medway, BS.58 (Straight through Pegasus) or Spey were used on Mirage G.

Dassault genius idea was to pull a VG prototype out of the Mirage F2 flown in June 1966. He did that in merely 18 months and the G flew in November 1967.

The Mirage F2 spanned VG (Mirage G), single-seat interceptor (F3), and scaled-down (F1) variants in less than 18 months in 1966-67.
 
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The Mirage F2 spanned VG (Mirage G), single-seat interceptor (F3), and scaled-down (F1) variants in less than 18 months in 1966-67.
An astonishingly nimble and adroit maneuver by M.Dassault which can only elicit a degree of envy.

Now say if FAA had thrown weight behind such, this might actually have been affordable for both FAA and AN.
If only Dassault had come up with this in 1963.....
 
Alas, 1963 was a year self-obsessed with NATO NBRM-3 for VSTOL fighters: P.1154 vs Balzac / III-V...
 
Yes. I vaguely reccal something about 1,000lbs for 'navalisation' (cat and trap), 1,000lb for the wingfold and something like 1,500lb or more for the second seat.

FAA insisted in ignoring the whole V/STOL system and demanding strengthening for catapult launch and arrestor recovery.

Coupled with a much higher emphasis on Fighter missions, endurance, Anti-ship and altitude. This drove the P.1154 RN version further and further away from commonality with the RAF version.

.....

However.....force RAF to accept P.1154RN for future fighter. Accept limited run of interim AI.23 and Red Top and then commonality rules OK....ish
Especially if you can demonstrate STOL operations and rolling VL on carriers with RAF version......
If recoil below 60kts it's a completely different story for RN thinking.

Irony...
F35B is doing just that now.

The issue with V/STOL operations from carriers was the P.1154's PCB (plenum chamber burning) thrust-augmenting system for the forward lift nozzles... the resulting exhaust, aimed straight at the deck, was much hotter than anything the MV-22 or F-35B produces now... the RN realized that it would absolutely cause significant flight deck damage.

Without the PCB (intended for use during both level and vertical flight) there was not enough lift forward to take off or land vertically, and not enough combined thrust to reach the intended maximum level speed.

So they planned on using it as a conventional carrier aircraft, with PCB forward nozzles fixed in the level flight configuration.
 
P.1154 and Phantom were of about the same length, but the former had a folded wingspan of about 22 feet and the latter had one of about 27 feet. The reduction isn't large enough to allow more aircraft to be stored in the hangars of Ark Royal and Eagle, but it might allow more aircraft to be accommodated in the deck parks.
According to Navypedia, Eagle in 1966 went to sea with 16 Sea Vixens, plus four Scimitars, in addition to her Buccaneer squadron. I was able to confirm this here.
According to Page 50 of Eagle's commissioning book for 1964-66 the Sea Vixen was temporarily increased from 12 to 15 aircraft.
A heavy CWP programme, an increase in aircraft complement from 12 to 15, the annual circus known euphemistically as Air Day, a few days leave, and we braced ourselves for the briny once again.
899 NAS was the first Sea Vixen FAW.2 squadron and the extra aircraft may have been embarked for trials and training.
Ark only ever carried 14 Sea Vixens, for the record.
Are you mixing that up with the 14 Buccaneers that Ark Royal normally carried. As far as I know she never embarked more than 12 Sea Vixens or 12 Phantoms.

If you're getting your figures from the Navypaedia entry I don't see 14 Sea Vixens anywhere. However, it does say 6 Sea Vixens and 14 Whirlwinds on Ark Royal in 1960. The first seems too low and the second seems too high so it could be a transposition error.

For what its worth Norman Friedman wrote on Page 312 of British Carrier Aviation that in October 1956 the projected air group for Eagle in 1963 was 50 aircraft as follows:

Air Group Eagle 1963 as projected in October 1956.png

That's 34 fixed-wing combat aircraft 16 AEW, ASW and SAR aircraft. That's 2 more than the 14 in the air groups for Centaur, Hermes and Victorious in 1963 as projected in October 1956, which have 4 AEW aircraft instead of 6.

According to the chapter on the SR.177 in Putnams Saunders and Saro aircraft Since 1917 by Peter London the dimensions of a SR.177 were:
Span (including tip shoes) 27 ft 1 in;​
Span (missiles installed) 30 ft 3¼ in; L​
Length 50 ft 6 in;​
Height 14ft 3½,in;​
Gross wing area 327sqft.​
The chapter does not say that the SR.177s wings folded and there are no line drawings showing that it's wings folded. The F-4K's wings folded to 27ft 7in.

Unlike the Buccaneer, Phantom, Scimitar, and Sea Vixen it was short enough to fit the 54ft long lifts on the Audacious and Centaur class aircraft carriers. So there was no need for folding noses (and in the case of the Buccaneer a folding tail) that these aircraft had.

Folded Dimensions of Buccaneer, Scimitar, P.1154, Sea Vixen, SR.177 and F-4K.png

So it looks as if Eagle could accommodate 36 aircraft of the same size as the Buccaneer, Scimitar, P.1154 and Sea Vixen. Or it could accommodate 22 aircraft of this size and 12 Phantom/SR.177 size aircraft for a total of 34.
 
So they planned on using it as a conventional carrier aircraft, with PCB forward nozzles fixed in the level flight configuration.
So it's obvious even then they didn't have to, snd this insistence is more about raising barriers to having P1154 foisted on them.
In that vein they started insisting on twin engines and even went to the extreme of claiming PCB would be needed in cruising flight to justify their claims of a worse s.f.c figure than the Spey.

In a similar turn they oposed pierced decking to allow the exhaust through down to the sea. As they did to concepts like rolling VL.

In reality, vectoring thrust allowed a reduction in forward speed and cooled flight deck sections were inevitably part of modernisation anyway.
 
These are the air groups for Eagle, Victorious, Hermes and Centaur for the early 1960s at projected in October 1956 from Friedman.

Air Groups Early 1960s from Friedman.png

He didn't say what the planned air group of Ark Royal was. This could have been because Eagle's refit to Standard A was intended to last from 1959 to 1962 and Ark Royal would follow. Therefore, Ark Royal would have been refitting in 1963.

However, Eagle's refit actually took from 1959 to 1964 at a much higher cost than estimated. Therefore, Ark Royal's Standard A refit was cancelled in favour of building a new ship. Except the new ship was cancelled in February 1966 and Ark Royal's big refit was reinstated except to Standard B instead of Standard A, i.e. no Type 984 radar and ADA. According to Hobbs its cost of £32.5 million was half the cost of building a CVA.01.

Victorious could carry nearly a third more aircraft than Hermes, which in turn carried 5 more aircraft than Centaur. On the other hand placing the forward lift at the deck edge allowed Hermes be fitted with longer steam catapults. In fact they were the same length as Ark Royals in 1955 and the bow catapult of Eagle after her 1959-64 refit.

According to Hobbs they were:
  • 1 x 151ft stroke BS.5 bow and 1 x 199ft stroke BS.5 waist Eagle after her 1959-64 refit.
  • 2 x 151ft stroke BS.4 Ark Royal as completed in 1955 (replaced 2 x BS.5 as Eagle in 1964 during her 1967-70 refit)
  • 2 x 151ft stroke BS.4 Hermes as completed in 1959
  • 2 x 145ft stroke BS.4 Victorious after her 1950-58 refit
  • 2 x 139ft stroke BS.4 Centaur after her 1956-58 refit
Hermes had the stroke of the port catapult was increased to 175 feet during her 1964-66 refit. According to Seaforces.org her air group during her final commission as a conventional aircraft carrier (1968-70) was:

Air Group Hermes 1968-70 from Seaforces.org.png


That's 19 fighters and strike aircraft instead of the 17 projected for the early 1960s in October 1966. It's also 11 AEW, ASW and SAR aircraft instead of the 14 projected for the early 1960s in October 1956. That's a net reduction of one aircraft. But it doesn't include the detachment of 4 Buccaneers from 803 NAS that operated on the ship from August 1968 to April 1969. That increased her air group to a total of 34 aircraft.

From the above it looks like Victorious was large enough to accommodate an air group of 12 Phantoms, 14 Buccaneers, 5 AEW & COD aircraft and 8 ASW & SAR helicopters (total 39 aircraft) but could not be fitted with catapults that were powerful to launch a Phantom.

Whereas Hermes did have catapults that were powerful enough to launch a Phantom but couldn't carry as many aircraft.
 
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What it says in the tin basically. In OTL Britain laid down 10 Colossus class ships in 1942-43, followed by 6 larger Majestic class in 1943 and then the Centaur class in 1944, going from 18,000t to ~20,000 and then 26,000t full load in two years.

So how do you get the British designers to start with a larger ship, ideally Centaur sized straight from 1942 or from the time of the Majestics? I understand the light fleets were initially the response to needing more carriers for convoy protection, so if the battle of the Atlantic is going better for the allies does this suffice total the design process towards larger ships earlier for example?
To summarise what has already been written by other contributors.

No. The Colossus and Majestic classes weren't initially the response to needing more carriers for convoy protection. They were designed and built to work with the fleet. Which is why they were called light fleet carriers. If they'd been designed for convoy protection my guess is that they'd have been called heavy escort carriers.

The 10 Colossus class were designed to operate aircraft weighing up to 15,000lb. The 6 Majestic class were ordered as Colossus class but they were modified to operate 20,000lb aircraft whilst under construction. The Centaur class was designed to operate 30,000lb aircraft and that was the major reason for the increase in size and more powerful machinery.

So firstly the Admiralty has to introduce the 30,000lb aircraft limit early enough for the first 16 light fleet carriers to be built as Centaurs instead of Colossuses and Majestics. My guess is that it has to be at least two years earlier. I have no idea what would make them do that.

The next problem is to find the extra labour and steel needed to build the larger hull and the more powerful machinery. This probably means the cruisers Blake, Hawke, Lion and Tiger are suspended before they were laid down to provide said labour and steel . They'd be re-ordered as Neptune class cruisers in 1944 and cancelled at the end of the war. The material, money and labour used 1954-61 to complete Blake, Lion and Tiger can be used to do something else and there will be no temptation to convert them into interim escort cruisers because they won't exist.

If 16 Centaurs were laid down 1942-43 instead of the 10 Colossus and 6 Majestic class then its highly unlikely that Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Hermes would be laid down 1944-45 and they'd be cancelled at the end of the war. It's also almost a dead cert that they would have been cancelled at the end of the war and broken up on the slips if they had been laid down. In both cases that's because 16 light fleet carriers capable of operating 30,000lb aircraft had already been completed or were at a more advanced stage of construction so the Admiralty would have decided that the best course of action would be to cancel them and use the limited financial and industrial resources that Austerity Britain could allocate to naval construction to do something else.

However, every cloud has a silver lining. This cloud has several.

One of them is that the four Centaurs laid down instead of Hercules, Leviathan, Majestic and Powerful would be completed by the end of 1948 instead of being suspended in May 1946. That means that instead of 12 light fleet carriers completed and 8 suspended or being built at a slow pace at the end of 1948 the navies operating British light fleet carriers have a total of 16 completed ships and none under construction. Plus all 16 completed ships are capable of operating 30,000lb aircraft which is a great improvement on the 10 ships capable of operating 15,000lb aircraft and 2 capable of operating 20,000lb aircraft that were available at that time in the "real world".

If Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Hermes were laid still laid down 1944-45 and then cancelled at the end of the war the resources put into the first three would be used to accelerate the completion of Ark Royal and Eagle which I estimate would be completed up to 2 years earlier in the case of Eagle and 4 years in the case of Ark Royal. The resources put into completing Hermes would instead be put into completing the original Eagle in 1959 to the same standard as Hermes in 1959, i.e. two 151ft stroke BS.4 steam catapults, a fully angled flight deck, Type 984 radar, CDS, DPT and an AC electrical system.

If Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Hermes weren't laid down in the first place the resources put into these ships between their laying down and the end of the war would be used to accelerate the construction of the three Audacious class class too.
  • I think Audacious would still be renamed Eagle but she'd be launched in 1945 instead of in 1946 and completed by the end of 1947 instead of late 1951.
  • I think Ark Royal would have been launched in 1946 instead of 1950 and completed by the end of 1948 instead of early 1955.
  • I think that the original Eagle would be renamed Audacious when the original Eagle was renamed Audacious. She would be launched in 1950 but completion would be delayed from late 1952 (as planned at the time of her launching) to early 1955 when it was decided to add interim angled flight deck and two 151ft stroke BS.4 steam catapults.
I want to be able to say that the Implacable and Indefatigable were modified to operate 30,000lb aircraft whilst under construction and that this included a single full-length hangar with 17.5ft high hangars instead of the one-and-a-half hangars with a height of 14ft. However, my guess is that the 30,000lb aircraft requirement would have to be brought forward at least 3 years to make that possible.

End of Part One​
 
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From the above it looks like Victorious was large enough to accommodate an air group of 12 Phantoms, 14 Buccaneers, 5 AEW & COD aircraft and 8 ASW & SAR helicopters (total 39 aircraft) but could not be fitted with catapults that were powerful to launch a Phantom.

Whereas Hermes did have catapults that were powerful enough to launch a Phantom but couldn't carry as many aircraft.

(sound of my head repeatedly banging against a wall)

The above summarizes to near perfection the sheer absurdity of British post war carriers, 1945-1985. Notably the impossible choice between Victorious and Hermes, and their respective sisterships. It was a terrible trap and the RN fell for it.

Bottom line "Centaur - Hermes are light carriers, Illustrious - Victorious are the heavy ones. We must modernize the heavies."

Bad luck: rebuild Hermes made a better carrier than rebuild Victorious... but that was impossible to guess in 1945, 1950 or 1955. Only in the early 1960's did it became slightly obvious that rebuilding Hermes (1959) had been a slightly better bargain than rebuilding Victorious (also 1959).

Dear gosh...

At the end of the day, with Victorious having the right size but wrong catapults, and Hermes being the opposite (!) the only valuable carriers were the Audacious. Unfortunately Ark Royal was crippled, so that leaves Eagle as the one and only carrier from 1945 to 1980 worth modernizing...
because it is the one and only
- big enough, unlike Hermes
- with the correct catapults, unlike Victorious
- and not an ailing wreck in poor material shape like Ark Royal

Bottom line: shame they didn't build that third Audacious back in 1945. Because, you see, the Audacious (with perfect hindsight) were the one and only carriers able to go from F4U Corsairs and Seafires to... Phantoms (!) in merely twenty years (!!): 1946-1966 !

It is so discouraging, when you think about it. I repeat: naval interceptors between 1945 and 1960 went from "last F-4F Wildcats" to "F-4 Phantom".
AFAIK, the only carriers that barely managed to survive that truly incredible era were
- Audacious
- Midways

Even Essex ended on their last ropes trying to handle Phantoms. As did Centaurs, Victorious. As for the French, even starting from a clean sheet of paper with the Clems, at 35 000 tons they could still not handling Phantoms safely enough, so Crusaders it was instead.

Makes one think.
Rebuild Essex, rebuild Hermes, rebuild Victorious, and brand new Clems: none can handle Phantom safely. Takes Eagle or Midway to do the job.
 
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I keep trying to picture from the pilot's pov landing on either Victorious or Hermes in a Phantom....
The mind boggles and the sphincter tightens.
 
From the above it looks like Victorious was large enough to accommodate an air group of 12 Phantoms, 14 Buccaneers, 5 AEW & COD aircraft and 8 ASW & SAR helicopters (total 39 aircraft) but could not be fitted with catapults that were powerful to launch a Phantom.

Whereas Hermes did have catapults that were powerful enough to launch a Phantom but couldn't carry as many aircraft.
Link to Post 62.
The crucial difference between Hermes and Victorious is that the former's forward lift was a deck edge unit and the latter's was on the centreline.

The distance between the bow and forward lift on Victorious was only large enough to fit 145ft stroke steam catapults. I've not got my copy of Friedman back out, but if I remember correctly a deck edge lift was part of the specification for the great rebuild of Victorious but there wasn't enough freeboard to incorporate one.

Moving the forward lift to the deck edge of Hermes allowed her to be completed with a pair of 151ft stroke steam catapults and for one of them to be increased to a 175ft stroke during her 1964-66 refit.

If she'd been completed with a centre line lift like her three half-sisters then she'd have been limited to steam catapults with a 139ft stroke like the ones fitted to Centaur in her 1956-58 refit.
 
From the above it looks like Victorious was large enough to accommodate an air group of 12 Phantoms, 14 Buccaneers, 5 AEW & COD aircraft and 8 ASW & SAR helicopters (total 39 aircraft) but could not be fitted with catapults that were powerful to launch a Phantom.

Whereas Hermes did have catapults that were powerful enough to launch a Phantom but couldn't carry as many aircraft.
Link to Post 62.
The crucial difference between Hermes and Victorious is that the former's forward lift was a deck edge unit and the latter's was on the centreline.

The distance between the bow and forward lift on Victorious was only large enough to fit 145ft stroke steam catapults. I've not got my copy of Friedman back out, but if I remember correctly a deck edge lift was part of the specification for the great rebuild of Victorious but there wasn't enough freeboard to incorporate one.

Moving the forward lift to the deck edge of Hermes allowed her to be completed with a pair of 151ft stroke steam catapults and for one of them to be increased to a 175ft stroke during her 1964-66 refit.

If she'd been completed with a centre line lift like her three half-sisters then she'd have been limited to steam catapults with a 139ft stroke like the ones fitted to Centaur in her 1956-58 refit.

Oh geez, instructive as usual. So that's the silly reason for the entire catapult thing... quite enlightening.
 
Intriguing thought....if Centaurs are completing 1948 (not a good year really and quite likely to be halted and then restarted 1950) then next generation carrier effort could start as a committee process around this date....something upto 4 years earlier than OTL.
 
Considering the comparison between modernised Victorious and Hermes, I do wonder if it would have been possible to fit Victorious with a heavier angled deck and with a 199 ft BS-5 catapult on it during her reconstruction or during a major refit later in her life. With such a configuration, she would probably have been capable of operating Phantoms and been a clearly more capable strike carrier than Hermes, as in addition to carrying more aircraft, she was faster and capable of producing more and higher pressure steam for her catapults thanks to her having six high-pressure boilers and a three-shaft propulsion system as opposed to Hermes' four Admiralty pattern boilers and two-shaft propulsion.

This leads me to wonder what kind of petite beasts reconstructed Implacable and Indefatigable would have been. They would have been rebuilt with a single, high hangar, and with eight high-pressure boilers and an uprated four-shaft machinery, they would have had a tremendous steam producing capability and would likely still have been capable of over 32 knots after reconstruction. Thanks to their somewhat larger size than Victorious they would have been slightly less challenging for the 1960's aircraft. With a 199 ft BS-5 on the angled deck, water-cooled JBDs, the latest arrestor gear, a transistorised Type 984, and good-quality pre-war steel in their hulls, they would probably still have been viable ships in the 1980's and IMHO a better choice than any of the light fleet carriers. If only the RN post-war carrier reconstruction programme had been better planned and executed, we might well have seen the two Implacables and the two Audaciouses operate in fully modernised form into the 1980's or even later and being replaced by new medium-sized carriers. Maybe the Centaurs, being surplus to requirements in the early 1960's, would have gone to Canada, Australia and India.
 
Are you mixing that up with the 14 Buccaneers that Ark Royal normally carried. As far as I know she never embarked more than 12 Sea Vixens or 12 Phantoms.

If you're getting your figures from the Navypaedia entry I don't see 14 Sea Vixens anywhere. However, it does say 6 Sea Vixens and 14 Whirlwinds on Ark Royal in 1960. The first seems too low and the second seems too high so it could be a transposition error.
EAGLE fleet aircraft carriers (2(1), 1951 - 1955)
Same site as Eagle but for Ark Royal's page. Scroll down to 1962 for the 14-Sea Vixen squadron.
 
Whereas Hermes did have catapults that were powerful enough to launch a Phantom but couldn't carry as many aircraft.
Hermes could still carry a useful air group of 20-24 fast jets (Scimitar, Sea Vixen, Buccaneer, Crusader, Skyhawk, Etendard… doesn’t really matter as they all had similar folded dimensions).

That compares to 24-30 fast jets for Clemenceau… close enough.

(In both cases with space available for 4-6 Gannet/Alize + 2-6 helos for patrol/ASW/AEW)

So 4 Centaurs upgraded to Hermes standard would have been almost equal to 4 Clemenceaus. Now add a mixed air group of Spey Twosaders and Buccaneers (10-12 each) and they would have been excellent IMHO.
 
Or instead of all this dicking about they could have just ordered a couple of the 1952 Carrier Design and be done with it.
Could have been completed by 1960 and by brand spanking new and alongside Eagle and Ark Royal we wouldn't have needed to tie ourselves up into knots over rebuilds or material conditions or CVA-01 issues.
 
If the new carrier process had started 1948-49 then the shift to Medium Fleet Carrier studies would be 1950-52 and by this shifting of decision timings back a couple of years they'd be ordered and laid down 1955. Completion say 1960.
Crystallising after N/A.39 is issued in '54 and the design effects of sngled decks are worked into the design.

And that would logically be the outcome of having Centaurs instead of Colossus.

The only problem is that the third Audacious might have been completed instead of a new design and this would sap the will to proceed.
But the good news out of a third Audacious is the modernisation of Illustriouses, and their evolutions would also loose out. Cheaper and quicker to modernise some Centaurs.
 
Or instead of all this dicking about they could have just ordered a couple of the 1952 Carrier Design and be done with it.
Could have been completed by 1960 and by brand spanking new and alongside Eagle and Ark Royal we wouldn't have needed to tie ourselves up into knots over rebuilds or material conditions or CVA-01 issues.
I often refer to the 1950-58 refit of Victorious as a "great rebuild" because apart from the hull there was very little of the original ship left so it was akin to the great rebuilds of the age of sail when all that was left of the original ship was some of the timers.

It also took as long and cost as much as it would have done to build a new ship of a similar size. They did exactly that on this timeline that I wrote on Alternatehistory.com.
This ship being a clean peace of paper design rather than a rebuild of an existing hull with a standard displacement of 35,000 tons rather than the 30,000 tons of the rebuilt Victorious did have enough space for a pair of full-length BS.4 steam catapults which could be replaced by BS.5 units later.

However, that was before I started to believe in the theory that "steel is cheap and air is free" and decided that a 1952 Carrier or a CVA.01 would not have cost significantly more to build than a 35,000 ton ship, although a smaller ship would be cheaper to run on account of its smaller air group and therefore a smaller crew. However, again the reduction in the running cost would be less than the reduction in displacement. I.e. it displaced two-thirds less than a 1952 Carrier or a CVA.01 but the reduction in the running costs was not as great.

Having written that Board of Admiralty and DNC's department weren't to know that the refit of Victorious would have taken so long and cost as much as it ended up costing. A lot is made of the decision to replace her boilers, however she was also a victim of the "galloping technology". Steam catapults were part of the refit's specification when it commenced in 1950 but the fully angled flight deck, Type 984 radar, CDS and DPT were added later and produced a ship that was significantly more capable that it would otherwise have been. These features would have had to be added in another refit, possibly at greater time and expense.

Or put another way instead of the "real world" refit that took from 1950 to 1958 at a cost of £20 million it would have been the originally planned refit lasting from 1950 to 1954 in which the 145ft stroke steam catapults and possibly an interim angled flight deck were fitted. Then in the 1960s another refit in which the angled flight deck and advanced electronics were installed which would have also meant a rearrangement of the refits of the other aircraft carriers. Result more than 8 years out of service at a cost of more than £20 million if only because of inflation.

However, I do think that the Board of Admiralty and DNC should have learned their lesson then and there. It took the experience of Eagle's 1959-64 refit that took as long and cost as much as building a new ship of similar capability for them to scrap plans for further big refits of this nature. Although Ark Royal ended up having one anyway.

And finally according to Leo Marriott in Royal Navy Aircraft Carriers 1945-1990 one of the reasons why Victorious took so long to refit was a shortage of labour at Portsmouth dockyard. That might have added a few years to the length of the refit, but not necessarily the cost because the refit would have taken the same number of man hours at nearly the same hourly rate of pay.
 
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Considering the comparison between modernised Victorious and Hermes, I do wonder if it would have been possible to fit Victorious with a heavier angled deck and with a 199 ft BS-5 catapult on it during her reconstruction or during a major refit later in her life. With such a configuration, she would probably have been capable of operating Phantoms and been a clearly more capable strike carrier than Hermes, as in addition to carrying more aircraft, she was faster and capable of producing more and higher pressure steam for her catapults thanks to her having six high-pressure boilers and a three-shaft propulsion system as opposed to Hermes' four Admiralty pattern boilers and two-shaft propulsion.

This leads me to wonder what kind of petite beasts reconstructed Implacable and Indefatigable would have been. They would have been rebuilt with a single, high hangar, and with eight high-pressure boilers and an uprated four-shaft machinery, they would have had a tremendous steam producing capability and would likely still have been capable of over 32 knots after reconstruction. Thanks to their somewhat larger size than Victorious they would have been slightly less challenging for the 1960's aircraft. With a 199 ft BS-5 on the angled deck, water-cooled JBDs, the latest arrestor gear, a transistorised Type 984, and good-quality pre-war steel in their hulls, they would probably still have been viable ships in the 1980's and IMHO a better choice than any of the light fleet carriers. If only the RN post-war carrier reconstruction programme had been better planned and executed, we might well have seen the two Implacables and the two Audaciouses operate in fully modernised form into the 1980's or even later and being replaced by new medium-sized carriers. Maybe the Centaurs, being surplus to requirements in the early 1960's, would have gone to Canada, Australia and India.

Interesting point here. I tend to dismiss the 6 "fleet carriers" as a hodgepodge of Victorious expensive and dissimilar rebuilds. And thus I bet on Centaurs, because Hermes.
But what you suggest is very interesting.
And it works with 2 or 3 Audacious, end result a 4-5 big carriers fleet.
It is a pity the Victorious rebuild kicked out these two larger and more capable ships...
 
To rebuild the Implacables, and make a decent outcome. Requires an upfront decision in favour of a full Victorious style rebuild and reboilering.
Essentially everything above the lower hanger deck floor would need to stripped off and redone to a new design.
What is clear is that they never intended Victorious herself to ho that far until forced by circumstances. By which time the Implacables had been ruled out.

But having such a will to spend so much to field all the new systems together effectively undermines the very idea of modernisation.
It would have been better to just bite the bullet on new build. As suggested in 1947.
 
Link to Post 61.
In the above I suggested that building 16 additional Centaurs instead of the 10 Colossus and 6 Majestic class means that Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Hermes aren't completed. That is: Alternative A, they weren't laid down and the contracts were cancelled at the end of the war; and Alternative B that they were still laid down 1944-45, cancelled at the end of the war and broken up on the slips.

In both alternatives the resources released were used to complete Audacious (ex-Eagle) instead of cancelling her at the end of the war and completing Ark Royal & Eagle (ex-Audacious) sooner.

Since then I've thought of Alternative C, which is two Audacious class fleet carriers were laid down 1944-45. One would be completed in 1954 to the same standard as Ark Royal in 1955. The other would be completed in 1959 to the same standard as Hermes in 1959 except it would have an 8 degree angled flight deck instead of one of 6 degrees and the forward lift would be on the centreline instead of at the deck edge.

I decided upon a pair of Audacious class rather than a pair of Maltas for two reasons.

The first was resources. That is one Audacious equals two Centaurs. The original design for the Centaur (according to Conway,s 1922-46) was half the displacement, had half the machinery, half the fixed armament and half the crew on an Audacious. A Malta displaced 10,000 tons more than an Audacious and had machinery that produced a that produced a third more shaft horse power than an Audacious.

The second is slipways. According to Conway's 1922-46 the Malta design had a pp length of 820 feet and the Audacious had a pp length of 720ft. Therefore, it was more likely that two of the yards that built Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Hermes (Swan Hunter, Harland & Wolf, Harland & Wolf, V-A, Barrow in that order) would have had a slipway available that was of the required length.

For the record these are the pp lengths of the other aircraft carriers being discussed in this thread from Conway's 1922-46:
  • 630ft Colossus and Majestic classes
  • 650ft Centaur class, including Hermes
  • 673ft Illustrious, Indomitable and Implacable classes - all three classes had the same waterline beam too, i.e. 95ft 9in
Edit 28.05.22

According to Friedman in British Carrier Aviation (Table 7-9 on Page 154) the pp length of the Implacable class was 690ft not 673ft as above. Although Chesneau (Page 128) agrees with Conway's by saying that the pp length was 673ft.
 
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What it says in the tin basically. In OTL Britain laid down 10 Colossus class ships in 1942-43, followed by 6 larger Majestic class in 1943 and then the Centaur class in 1944, going from 18,000t to ~20,000 and then 26,000t full load in two years.

So how do you get the British designers to start with a larger ship, ideally Centaur sized straight from 1942 or from the time of the Majestics? I understand the light fleets were initially the response to needing more carriers for convoy protection, so if the battle of the Atlantic is going better for the allies does this suffice total the design process towards larger ships earlier for example?
To summarise what has already been written by other contributors.

No. The Colossus and Majestic classes weren't initially the response to needing more carriers for convoy protection. They were designed and built to work with the fleet. Which is why they were called light fleet carriers. If they'd been designed for convoy protection my guess is that they'd have been called heavy escort carriers.

The 10 Colossus class were designed to operate aircraft weighing up to 15,000lb. The 6 Majestic class were ordered as Colossus class but they were modified to operate 20,000lb aircraft whilst under construction. The Centaur class was designed to operate 30,000lb aircraft and that was the major reason for the increase in size and more powerful machinery.

So firstly the Admiralty has to introduce the 30,000lb aircraft limit early enough for the first 16 light fleet carriers to be built as Centaurs instead of Colossuses and Majestics. My guess is that it has to be at least two years earlier. I have no idea what would make them do that.

The next problem is to find the extra labour and steel needed to build the larger hull and the more powerful machinery. This probably means the cruisers Blake, Hawke, Lion and Tiger are suspended before they were laid down to provide said labour and steel . They'd be re-ordered as Neptune class cruisers in 1944 and cancelled at the end of the war. The material, money and labour used 1954-61 to complete Blake, Lion and Tiger can be used to do something else and there will be no temptation to convert them into interim escort cruisers because they won't exist.

If 16 Centaurs were laid down 1942-43 instead of the 10 Colossus and 6 Majestic class then its highly unlikely that Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Hermes would be laid down 1944-45 and they'd be cancelled at the end of the war. It's also almost a dead cert that they would have been cancelled at the end of the war and broken up on the slips if they had been laid down. In both cases that's because 16 light fleet carriers capable of operating 30,000lb aircraft had already been completed or were at a more advanced stage of construction so the Admiralty would have decided that the best course of action would be to cancel them and use the limited financial and industrial resources that Austerity Britain could allocate to naval construction to do something else.

However, every cloud has a silver lining. This cloud has several.

One of them is that the four Centaurs laid down instead of Hercules, Leviathan, Majestic and Powerful would be completed by the end of 1948 instead of being suspended in May 1946. That means that instead of 12 light fleet carriers completed and 8 suspended or being built at a slow pace at the end of 1948 the navies operating British light fleet carriers have a total of 16 completed ships and none under construction. Plus all 16 completed ships are capable of operating 30,000lb aircraft which is a great improvement on the 10 ships capable of operating 15,000lb aircraft and 2 capable of operating 20,000lb aircraft that were available at that time in the "real world".

If Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Hermes were laid still laid down 1944-45 and then cancelled at the end of the war the resources put into the first three would be used to accelerate the completion of Ark Royal and Eagle which I estimate would be completed up to 2 years earlier in the case of Eagle and 4 years in the case of Ark Royal. The resources put into completing Hermes would instead be put into completing the original Eagle in 1959 to the same standard as Hermes in 1959, i.e. two 151ft stroke BS.4 steam catapults, a fully angled flight deck, Type 984 radar, CDS, DPT and an AC electrical system.

If Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Hermes weren't laid down in the first place the resources put into these ships between their laying down and the end of the war would be used to accelerate the construction of the three Audacious class class too.
  • I think Audacious would still be renamed Eagle but she'd be launched in 1945 instead of in 1946 and completed by the end of 1947 instead of late 1951.
  • I think Ark Royal would have been launched in 1946 instead of 1950 and completed by the end of 1948 instead of early 1955.
  • I think that the original Eagle would be renamed Audacious when the original Eagle was renamed Audacious. She would be launched in 1950 but completion would be delayed from late 1952 (as planned at the time of her launching) to early 1955 when it was decided to add interim angled flight deck and two 151ft stroke BS.4 steam catapults.
I want to be able to say that the Implacable and Indefatigable were modified to operate 30,000lb aircraft whilst under construction and that this included a single full-length hangar with 17.5ft high hangars instead of the one-and-a-half hangars with a height of 14ft. However, my guess is that the 30,000lb aircraft requirement would have to be brought forward at least 3 years to make that possible.

End of Part One​
This raises a number of interesting questions.

Firstly design & development of carriers and carrier aircraft virtually stopped in May 1940 with the German invasion of France and the Low Countries as there were much higher priorities. It doesn't pick up again until the latter part of 1941 following the lessons of the first half of 1941 in the Med. The first product of that renewed effort is the Colossus / Majestic design and then the Audacious class during 1942.

In terms of aircraft design, aircraft max weight limits had been around 10,500lb until 1940 when they began to be relaxed to 12,500lb for the likes of the Firefly & Firebrand. But everything came out heavy. The Barracuda designed initially around 10,500lb came out at 14,250lb in production form in 1942. The same thing happened in the US. The Curtiss SB2C Helldiver design began at 10,200lb in Nov 1940 and in initial production form in Sept 1942 was at 16,600lb. The TBF-1 Avenger started at a max weight of 15,905lb in early 1942.

A technical committee reported in late 1942 about the future direction of naval aircraft development and realised that they would be even heavier if future and also larger dimensionally. Any ships built from then on would have a significant postwar life and the weight increases were likely to continue. Designs exceeding the 20,000lb limit begin to be requested in 1943. Fairey Spearfish (19,000lb limit came out at 22,000lb when it flew in 1945) & Short Sturgeon (24,000lb limit).

In 1942 the Admiralty realised that it will have to depend on the US for its aircraft for the forseeable future so will have to ensure its carriers can take them physically. The first recognition of this is that hangar heights are increased to 17.5ft to match the standard US hangar height. This can be seen as the designs of the 1942 carriers evolve during the year. 17.5ft allows the carriage of the F4U Corsair without clipping 8" from each wingtip. But looking further ahead the USN had in 1941 begun to develop a successor for the Avenger in the shape of the BTD Destroyer which was planned around 19,000lb.

So everything in 1942 points to a new higher weight limit above 20,000lb being needed but I don't believe that it would have been so clear to anyone in 1941.

But the changes to aircraft design also have an impact on the ships and the yards that were to build them.

Increasing the hangar height in the Audacious class design didn't happen until Nov 1942 and that needed an increase in beam to accomodate the extra topweight. In turn that meant the the original Eagle had to be moved from Swan Hunter to VA(Tyne) as the SH slip was no longer wide enough to build it. The design was also modified for 30,000lb aircraft.

If Centaurs were to be built in place of Colossus/Majestic then the issue of a yard's ability to accomodate them needs to be considered. Alexander Stephens & Sons on the Clyde built Ocean. They couldn't have built a Centaur. They didn't have a slip long enough (Ocean was the second longest ship they ever built. The longest was a tanker in 1962 after substantial investment in the yard post-war).

Then the question of build time. In late 1941 an Admiralty study estimated the build time for a fleet carrier at 46 months and a cruiser at 28 months. Early Colossus studies indicated a build time of 24-42 months depending on spec. The first 5, the wartime completions, averaged 30 months. If you build the bigger Centaurs to their better spec better suited to the post-war environment, the build time will inevitably increase. And as Centaur used a half set of Audacious machinery, instead of the already designed half set of cruiser machinery in a Colossus, there will inevitably be delays in laying them down. So at least the early completion dates will move to the right. But by how much? 6 months? 12 months?

And at Harland & Wolff Belfast if a Centaur version of Glory takes longer to build, then a Centaur version of Powerful which was laid down on the same slip the same day as Glory was launched, also gets delayed. H&W was incredibly busy with slips lying unoccupied for minimal periods of time in WW2.

If the Colossus were laid down as Centaurs in 1942 with longer build times, then the future of the historical Centaurs ordered in July 1943 becomes even more problematic. They were seen as post-war ships by the politicians and as necessary to operate the new larger post-war generation of aircraft by the professionals. So would they even be ordered in the first place? And if ordered would there even be the historical compromise of agreeing to lay down 4 and defer 4. Wartime money that can be better spent elsewhere. The professionals have even less reason to insist on their progression. And if not started construction in the first place no need to spend money on work to allow the slips to be cleared by taking them to the launch stage. An easy cull in Oct-Dec 1945.

And with the Centaurised Colossus in the yards for longer what is the labour effect on both them and other programmes in the yards? The Transport Ferry/LST(3) programme affected the major carrier yards like VA(T) causing delays to the original Eagle. But H&W, Hawthorn Leslie, Swan Hunter, Stephen Fairfield, and VA(Barrow) were all involved in building both types and the LST(3) was a high priority in 1944/45.

Over at Cammell Laird work on Ark Royal was held up in 1944 by the need to get Venerable completed and the commitment of the yard to submarine and destroyer programmes. If a Centaurised Venerable takes longer what are the knock on effects?

Moving to the end of the war, with delays to laying Centaurised Colossus ships down and longer build times the result is fewer wartime completions and more ships of the class further away from completion. Without the need for for the historic Centaurs to be worked on to clear the slips money is saved but that doesn't mean that it would automatically flow to completing the Theseus & Triumph (Warrior had been promised to Canada who were keen to get into the carrier game but were happy to see Magnificent, which was not that far from completion historically, laid up). Stopping work on Majestic, Leviathan, Powerful & Terrible historically saved about £3.2m. That sum would be greater if they were building as Centaurs.

So come 1948 the very best that can be hoped for are 5 Centaurised Colossus in service (with 1 each gone to Canada, France & the Netherlands) as historical, with the 6 Centaurised Majestics laid up as historical and probably in a less advanced state of completion and none of the historical Centaurs. Then the question is will Australia & Canada want to spend more money to get another carrier, albeit a larger one?

Another issue is that while we have talked about the greater deck strength to take the new generation of aircraft, we have not discussed the ability to launch and recover them. The BH.III hydraulic catapult was standard in WW2 and steadily upgraded to launch 16,000lb at 66 knots using the trolley or 20,000lb at 56 knots tail down (upgraded to 20,000lb at 66 knots tail down in 1949). The improved BH.5 began in prototype form in 1948 and entered service on Centaur in 1954 (prototype 20,000lb at 56 knots; production 30,000lb at 75 knots). Wartime arrester systems were upgraded for heavier aircraft between 1945 and 1950. But new systems as fitted historically to Eagle & the Centaurs didn't begin development until 1946.

So if there are any Centaurised Colosus around in 1948 they still need refitted to bring them up to the standard of the historical Centaurs in 1954. Do you then move then delay those refits to take advantage of steam catapults?

So the question then becomes one of whether delaying service entry of these ships even further is worth the post-war benefits of larger ships that still need considerable modernisation?
 
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Pretty much going full circle here.
In one of the early posts on p.1 I said;
The 1942 Light Fleet was always intended as a cheap and cheerful way to get more carrier decks for the least drain on shipbuilding resources and quick build times.

Anything that detracts from low cost and easy build (remember the Colossus had commercial scantlings I believe) makes them less useful. If it's going to take the best of four years to build a Centaurised Colossus and not have it in service until 1946-47 then you might as well not bother and just build an extra couple of Implacables or Audaciouses instead.

The timings of the aircraft, catapults and arrester gear are key. They don't really align that well to make a Centaur possible sooner and even if it did, why not just take some guns and armour off an Illustrious and have the same result?
 
This leads me to wonder what kind of petite beasts reconstructed Implacable and Indefatigable would have been. They would have been rebuilt with a single, high hangar, and with eight high-pressure boilers and an uprated four-shaft machinery, they would have had a tremendous steam producing capability and would likely still have been capable of over 32 knots after reconstruction. Thanks to their somewhat larger size than Victorious they would have been slightly less challenging for the 1960's aircraft. With a 199 ft BS-5 on the angled deck, water-cooled JBDs, the latest arrestor gear, a transistorised Type 984, and good-quality pre-war steel in their hulls, they would probably still have been viable ships in the 1980's and IMHO a better choice than any of the light fleet carriers. If only the RN post-war carrier reconstruction programme had been better planned and executed, we might well have seen the two Implacables and the two Audaciouses operate in fully modernised form into the 1980's or even later and being replaced by new medium-sized carriers. Maybe the Centaurs, being surplus to requirements in the early 1960's, would have gone to Canada, Australia and India.
The Implacables were not materially larger than an Illustrious like Victorious dimensionally only weight wise. Data for Illustrious & Implacable classes in 1945

Full load displacement - 29,110/32,110 tons
Length BP - 673/690 ft
Length WL - 710/730 ft
Length OA - 740/766.5 ft
Beam WL - 95.75/95.75 ft
Beam extreme - 106.75/114.5 ft

From Friedman. That extra 20ft or so in length did not generate significantly more hull volume. The percentages of volume below the upper deck in Victorious and the lower hangar deck in Implacable (both 37ft above the keel) were respectively 23% & 29%. But the more powerful 4 shaft machinery arrangement in Implacable was actually a disadvantage when the Admiralty came to look at her reconstruction. It occupied 40% of the underwater hull volume compared with 30% in Victorious. So there was less volume for the larger crew required to run that extra machinery before we start thinking about all the new additions.

As for her speed I doubt that she would still have been capable of 32 knots after reconstruction. Her original rated speed of 32.5 knots was only possible at the relatively light displacement of 29,000 tons with a clean hull. At deep displacement it was 31.5 knots.

The plan called for the upper hangar to become the new hangar. That involved raising the flight deck 9ft to allow for the extra hangar height (14ft to 17.5ft) plus a gallery deck to provide much of the additional space required by these reconstructions. That meant blistering the hull to regain the lost stability. That would have added 15ft to her hull beam. Her weight would have increased to 36,000 tons ie beyond the original designed deep displacement. All of that would have cost speed. While new boilers were to be fitted, that was more about meeting the endurance requirements through increased efficiency, rather than about speed. By way of contrast Victorious' beam increased by only 8 ft in her reconstruction and her weight to 35,500 tons for her to maintain 31 knots. Neither ship would have had her machinery power increased beyond that originally installed.

Whether or not it would have been possible to fit a waist catapult would depend on whether or not a side lift would have been fitted (discussions about that were ongoing when everything got cancelled). Implacable's greater hull depth compared to Victorious might have allowed it. Ark Royal lost her side lift when she got the waist catapult. But she already had 2 centreline lifts. Hermes by comparison only had a single centreline lift and the side lift.

You are making a big assumption about the quality of the steel. How much of it was acquired by the builders and set aside for these ships before the outbreak of war? Implacable wasn't laid down until 21 Feb 1939 and Indefatigable on 3 Nov 1939, after the outbreak of war. Both were launched in Dec 1942. So most of their build time was under wartime conditions.
 
I'm having popcorn and enjoying the debate so far. Also taking notes. More and more thinking that Audacious vs Implacable vs Centaur was a no-choice: all of them were flawed, one way or another. I'm leaning toward the side of "old carriers in the jet era are hopeless, build new ones you dummy RN."
 
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