Vickers type designations

Jos Heyman

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With the recent Supermarine list I tried to get a Vickers list from the inromaftion in limited my library. The list is far from complete and is offered here as a start. I will load it up in groups.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 Refer EFB-1
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30 Refer EFB-3
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54 Viking IV
55
56 Victoria Mk.IV
57 Virginia Mk.I
58
59
60
61 Vulcan
62 Vanguard
63 Vulcan
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71 Vixen
72 Vanguard
73
74 Vulcan
75
76 Virginia Mk.II
77
78 Vulture I
79 Virginia Mk.III
80
81 Victoria Mk.II
82
83 Vanellus
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92 Valparaiso II
93 Valparaiso I
94 Venture
95 Vulture II
96 Virginia Mk.I
97
98
99 Virginia Mk.IV
100 Virginia Mk.V
 

Jos Heyman

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101
102
103 Vanguard
104
105
106
107
108 Virginia Mk.VI
109
110
111
112 Virginia Mk.VII
113 Vespa Mk I
114
115 Virginia Mk.VIII
116
117 Victoria Mk. III
118
119 Vespa Mk II
120 Vendace Mk I
121 Wibault Scout
122
123 Scout aircraft (G-EBQN)
124
125 Vireo
126
127
128 Virginia Mk.IX
129 Virginia Mk.VII
130
131 Valiant
132 Vildebeest
133 Vendace Mk II
134 Vellore I
135
136
137
138
139 Virginia Mk.X
140
141 Scout for Spec F.9/26 and 21/26
142 Vived
143 Scout for Bolivia
144
145 Victoria Mk.IV
146
147
148
149 Vespa Mk III
150 Vanox
151 Jockey
152
153
154
155 Vendace
156
157
158
159
160
161 Spec F29/27
162
163 Spec C16/28
164
165
166 Vellore II
167
168 Valparaiso III
169 Victoria Mk. V
170 Vanguard
171 Jockey
172 Vellore III
173 Vellore IV
174
175
176
177 Spec 21/26
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192 Vildebeest
193 Vespa Mk IV
194 Vildebeest
195 Vanox
196
197
198
199
200
 

Jos Heyman

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201
202
203
204
205
206
207 Spec M1/30
208 Vespa Mk V
209 Vildebeest
210 Vespa VI
211
212 Vellox
213
214 Vildebeest
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225 Spec B.19/27
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241 Victoria V
242
243
244 Vildebeest Mk.I
245 Vildebeest
246 Wellesley
247
248
249
250 Vespa VII
251
252
253 Spec Q4/31
254
255 Vanox
256
257
258 Vildebeest Mk.II
259 Viastra
260
261
262 Victoria Mk.VI
263 Valentia I
264 Valentia
265
266 Vincent
267 Vildebeest III
268
269
270 Wellington
271 Wellington
272
273
274
275
276
277 Vildebeest Mk.III
278
279 Venom
280 Spec O.27/34
281 Wellesley
282
283 Valentia I
284 Warwick
285 Wellington Mk.I
286 Vildebeest Mk. IV
287 Wellesley Mk.I
288
289 Wellesley
290 Wellington Mk.I
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298 Wellington Mk.II
299 Wellington Mk.III
300 to 399: Supoermarine aircraft
 

Jos Heyman

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400
401 Warwick
402
403
404
405 Spec B.1/39
406 Wellington B.Mk.II
407 Wellington Mk.V
408 Wellington Mk.IA
409
410 Wellington Mk.IV
411
412
413 Warwick B.Mk.II
414
415 Westland Mk.IC
416 Wellington Mk.IC
417 Wellington B/Mk.III
418 Wellington DWI.Mk.I
419 Wellington DWI.Mk.II
420
421 Wellington Mk.V
422
423 Wellington Mk.IC
424 Wellington B.Mk.IV
425
426
427
428
429 Wellington GR.Mk.VIII
430
431
432 Wellington Mk.VI
433
434
435 Westland Mk.IC
436
437 Wellington IX.
438
439 Wellington Mk.II
440 Wellington B.Mk.X
441
442 Wellington B.Mk.IV
443 Wellington Mk.V
444
445 Wellington
446
447 Windsor
448
449 Wellington Mk.VIG
450
451
452
453
454 Wellington Mk.IX
455 Wellington GR.Mk.XII
456 Warwick C.Mk.I
457 Windsor
458 Wellington GR.Mk.XI
459 Wellington Mk.IX
460 Warwick C.Mk.III
461 Windsor
462 Warwick ASR.Mk.I
463
464
465
466 Wellington GR.Mk.III
467 Wellington GR.Mk.XIV
468
469 Warwick GR.Mk.II
470 Wellington Mk.II
472
473 Warwick GR.Mk.V
474 Warwick GR.Mk.V
475
476
477
478 Wellington Mk.X
479
480
481
482
483
484
485 Warwick ASR Mk.IV
486 Wellington Mk.II
487 Wellington T.Mk.XVII
488
489
490 Wellington T.Mk.XVIII
491 Viking
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500 to 599: Supermarine
 

Jos Heyman

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600
601
602 Wellington Mk.X
603
604
605
606
607 Valetta
608
609
610 Viking
611
612
613
614
615
616
617
618 Nene Viking
619 Wellington T.Mk10
620
621
622
623
624
625
626
627
628
629
630 VC-2 Viscount
631
632
633
634 Viking
635
636
637
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
645 Viking
646
647
648 Varsity T. Mk1
649
650
651
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660 Valiant
662
663 Tay-Viscount
664
665
666
667 Valiant
668
669
670
672
673
674 Valiant B.Mk 1
675
676
677
678
679
680
681
682
683
684
685
686
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
694
695
696
697
698
699
700 Viscount
 

Jos Heyman

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701
702
703
704
705
706 Valiant B.Mk 1
707
708 Viscount
709
710 Valiant B(PR)Mk.1
711
712
713
714
715
716
717
718
719
720 Viscount
721
722
723
724 Viscount
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
732
733 Valiant B(M)K.Mk 1
734
735
736
737
738
739
740
741
742
743
744
745 Viscount
746
747
748
749
750
751
752
753
754
755
756
757 Viscount
758 Valiankt BK.Mk 1
759
760
762
763
764
765 Viscount
766
767
768
769
770
772
773
774
775
776
777
778
779
780
781
782
783
784
785
786
787
788
789
790
791
792
793
794 Viscount
795
796
797
798 Viscount
799
800 Viscount
 

Jos Heyman

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802 Viscount
803 Viscount
805 Viscount
806 Viscount
810 Viscount
812 Viscount
837 Viscount
950 Vanguard
951 Vanguard
952 Vanguard
953 Vanguard
1000 VC-7
1100 VC-10
1101 VC-10
1102 VC-10
1103 VC-10
1106 VC-10 C.Mk.1
1109 VC-10
1110 VC-10
1150 Super VC-10
1151 Super VC-10
1154 Super VC-10

Fighting Biplanes
F.B.1
F.B.2
F.B.3
F.B.5
F.B.6
F.B.7
F.B.8
F.B.9
F.B.11
F.B.12
F.B.14
F.B.15
F.B.16
F.B.19
F.B.24
F.B.25
F.B.26
F.B.27
Monoplanes
M.1
M.2
M.3
M.4
M.5
M.6
M.7
M.8
Experimental Scout
E.S.1
 

Jos Heyman

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The letter combination VC (for Vickers Commercial) was only used for marketing purposes and was used as follows:
VC-1 Viking
VC-2 Viscount
VC-3 Proposed civilian development of the Varsity
VC-4 A three engined airliner for the North Atlantic route
VC-5 A long range transport based on the Valiant
VC-6 A short range transport based on the Valiant
VC-7 The 1000 design
VC-8 Viscount 800 series (?)
VC-9 Vanguard
VC-10 The VC-10
VC-11 A short range version of the VC-10
VC-12 Short range transport
 

Boogey

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Fighting biplanes section adding :
F.B.10 ... 1II– M2.R. ( two-seat reco / fighter ).
F.B.23 ... 1II– M2. ( two-seat fighter ).
There was also designation E.S.2 as the derivative of E.S.1 in experimental scout section.

Anyway good job :)
Your list is so on a large scale that it must have taken time to collate with the mine one.
Question is if You find some time to separate military from civilian and to add short descriptions
to each type number, for example what was Vickers type 1 ?
 

Jos Heyman

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Here are some additions sent to me by 'Boogey'

Vickers Type 453 VC2
Vickers Type 493 Viking
Vickers Type 602 Wellington (a Type 440 Wellington Mk.X used as turboprop testbed)
Vickers Type 608 Wellington (project)
Vickers Type 609 VC2 Viceroy
Vickers Type 638 Wellington
Vickers Type 640 Viscount
Vickers Type 673 Valiant
Vickers Type 701 Viscount
Vickers Type 702 Viscount
Vickers Type 703 Viscount
Vickers Type 705 Valiant
Vickers Type 707 Viscount
Vickers Type 709 Valiant
Vickers Type 712 Valiant
Vickers Type 716 (study for Type 1000)
Vickers Type 718 Valiant
Vickers Type 723 Viscount
Vickers Type 730 Viscount
Vickers Type 732 Viscount
Vickers Type 734 Viscount
Vickers Type 735 Viscount
Vickers Type 736 Viscount
Vickers Type 737 Viscount
Vickers Type 739 Viscount
Vickers Type 742 Viscount
Vickers Type 744 Viscount
Vickers Type 747 Viscount
Vickers Type 748 Viscount
Vickers Type 749 Viscount
Vickers Type 754 Viscount
Vickers Type 755 Viscount
Vickers Type 756 Viscount
Vickers Type 759 Viscount
Vickers Type 760 Viscount
Vickers Type 761 Viscount
Vickers Type 763 Viscount
Vickers Type 764 Viscount
Vickers Type 768 Viscount
Vickers Type 769 Viscount
Vickers Type 770 Viscount
Vickers Type 771 Viscount
Vickers Type 772 Viscount
Vickers Type 773 Viscount
Vickers Type 776 Viscount
Vickers Type 779 Viscount
Vickers Type 780 Viscount
Vickers Type 781 Viscount
Vickers Type 782 Viscount
Vickers Type 784 Viscount
Vickers Type 785 Viscount
Vickers Type 786 Viscount
Vickers Type 789 Viscount
Vickers Type 790 Viscount
Vickers Type 793 Viscount
Vickers Type 797 Viscount
Vickers Type 801 Viscount
Vickers Type 804 Viscount
Vickers Type 807 Viscount
Vickers Type 808 Viscount
Vickers Type 813 Viscount
Vickers Type 814 Viscount
Vickers Type 815 Viscount
Vickers Type 816 Viscount
Vickers Type 818 Viscount
Vickers Type 827 Viscount
Vickers Type 828 Viscount
Vickers Type 831 Viscount
Vickers Type 832 Viscount
Vickers Type 833 Viscount
Vickers Type 835 Viscount
Vickers Type 836 Viscount
Vickers Type 838 Viscount
Vickers Type 839
Vickers Type 840 Viscount
Vickers Type 843 Viscount
Vickers Type 850 Viscount Major
Vickers Type 860 Viscount
Vickers Type 870 Viscount (project with jet engines)
Vickers Type 900 (preliminary design for Type 950)
Vickers Type 901 (preliminary design for Type 950)
Vickers Type 1001
Vickers Type 1002 VC7
Vickers Type 1003
Vickers Type 1004 VC7
Vickers Type 1104 VC10
Vickers Type 1105 VC10
Vickers Type 1112 VC10
Vickers Type 1152 Super VC10
Vickers Type 1153 Super VC10
Vickers Type 1164 VC10
Vickers Type 1400 VC11


Sources:

* Andrews: Vickers Aircraft since 1908 (1st edition 1969)
* JAWA 1949-50
* JAWA 1960-61
* JAWA 1970-71
 

Jos Heyman

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Viscount designations with customer and number built for that type based on information in Tomkins, N.M., Airliner Production List, 1978

Type Customer #
630 Ministry of Supply 5
663 Ministry of Supply 6
700 Ministry of Supply 7
701 British European Airways 27
702 British West Indian Airways 4
707 Aer Lingus 4
708 Air France 12
720 Trans Australian Airlines 7
723 Indian Air Force 1
724 Trans Canada Airlines 15
730 Indian Air Force 1
732 Hunting Clan 3
734 Pakistan Air Force 1
735 Iraqi Airways 3
736 Fred Olsen Air Transport 2
737 Canadian dept of Transport 3
739 Misair 6
742 Braathens SAFE 1
744 Capital Airlines 3
745 Capital Airlines 71*
747 Butler Air Transport 2
748 Central African Airways 5
749 Linea Aeropostal Venezolana 3
754 Middle East Airlines 8*
755 Cubana 3
756 Trans Australian Airlines 7
757 Trans Canada Airlines 36
759 Hunting Clan 2
760 Hong Kong Airways 2
761 Union of Burma Airways 3
763 TACA 1
764 US Steel Corporation 3
765 Standard Oil Corp. 1
768 Indian Airlines 10
769 PLUNA 3
772 British West Indian Airways 4
773 Iraqi Airways 1
776 Kuwait Oil Corp 1
779 Fred Olsen Air Transport 4
781 South African Air Force 1
782 Iranian Airlines 3
784 Philippine Airlines 3
785 LAI/Alitalia 10
786 Lloyd Aero Colombiano 3
789 Forca Aerea Brasiliana 1
790 not built 1
793 Royal Bank of Canada 1
794 Turk Hava Yollari 5
797 Vickers/Canadian dept of Transport 1
798 Northeast 10
802 British European Airways 23
803 KLM 4
803 KLM 10
804 Transair 3
805 Eagle Aviation 1
806 British European Airways 21
807 New Zealand Airways Corp 4
808 Aer Lingus 6
810 Vickers 1
812 Continental Airlines 15
813 South African Airways 7
814 Lufthansa 11
815 Pakistan International Airways 5
816 Trans Australian Airlines 4
818 Cubana 3
821 Eagle Aviation (not built) 3
823 California Eastern (not built) 8
827 VASP 5
828 Vickers/All Nippon Airways 9
831 Airwork 2
831 Sudan Airways 1
832 Ansett ANA 4
833 Hunting Clan 3
835 Tennessee Gas Transmission Corp 1
837 Austrian Airlines 6
838 Ghana Airways 3
843 Vickers/CAAC 6
* not all supplied and diverted to other types
 

hesham

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Hi,

22 single seat mid-wing monoplane
55 Viking IV
58 ,, ,,
59 ,, ,,
60 ,, ,,
64 ,, ,,
66 Vimy commercial
67 Viking IV
69 ,, ,,
73 ,, ,,
77 flying boat ?
82 Varsity transport
84 Viking IV for Argentine
85 Viking IV
87 Vixen MK II
89 Viget single seat ultra-light biplane
91 Vixen MK III
98 Vagabond two seat ultra-light biplane
105 Vixen IV
106 Vixen III
116 Vixen V
122 developed from 121.
124 Vixen VI
130 Vivid (all metal version of Vixen)
138 Victoria III Spec. 13/27
144 Vimy for 23/27
147 Valiant
148 Vixen III modefied as single seat racer aircraft
162 fighter developed from 161
196 single seat fighter (Jockey III)
198 Viastra II
199 Viastra III
 

hesham

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Hi,

203 Viastra VI
216 Vildebeest VII
217 revised version of 216
220 Viastra VIII
227 Vildebeest MK III
231 transport for C26/31
249 early bomber design fot B9/32
252 Vildebeest XI
253 general purpose for G4/31 (not Q4/31)
256 Viastra for 10/32
268 Wellesley ?
278 transport ?
291 Wellesley
292 Wellesley
293 bomber for B12/36
294 Wellesley with strengthened wing
 

Jos Heyman

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A search through William Green's Famous Bombers of the Second World War gave the following:
295 Wellington Mk I
296 Wellington Mk I
403 Wellington
409 Wellington Mk IB
426 Wellington V
428 Wellington III
431 Wellington VI
436 Wellington V
449 Wellington VIG
451 Wellington III

An attempt to make a similar list of type designation for the Viking as I made for the Viscount, using Appleton's British Aircraft Register 1919-1978 met with limited success but gave the following:
495 Viking 1
496 Viking 1
498 Viking 1A
499 Viking 1
614 Viking 1
615 Viking
621 Viking 1B
627 Viking 1B
632 Viking 1B
639 Viking 1
643 Viking 1
657 Viking 1

Surfing through the internet also gave
668 Varsity
672 Valiant
 

Jos Heyman

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VC-10 type detailes

1100 Vickers 3
1101 BOAC 12
1102 Ghana Airways 2
1103 BUA 3
1104 Nigerian Airways (not built) 0
1106 RAF 14
1109 Laker Airways 1
1112 RAF (conversions)
1151 BOAC 17
1152 BOAC combi (not built) 0
1154 East African Airways 5
1164 RAF (conversions)
1170 RAF (conversions)
1180 RAF (conversions)
 

hesham

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Hi,

400 bomber for B1/35
402 Wellesley with three seat as experimental aircraft
414 canon fighter for F22/39
420 canon fighter for F16/40
422 warwick ?
430 Wellington VII
433 B5/41 pressure cabin Warwick III
446 two seat fighter developed from 432
448 bomber ?
471 Windsor fourth prototype
476 Windsor fifth prototype
479 Windsor with Bristol Hercules engines
480 Windsor third prototype
482 VC.2
483 Windsor B MK.I
611 Warwick ?
633 jet airliner for E4/49
654 Transport Valetta for C13/47
659 Valetta for C18/48
664 Valetta T.3 for T1/49
711 flying bomb
719 ,, ,, developed from SP.2
725 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,,
727 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,,
743 Valetta T.4
790 airliner ?
799 bomber for R.156T (not sure)
 

hesham

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Hi,

1110 Generic designation for VC10A
1111 Version of VC10A for BOAC
1112 Tanker conversion of Type 1101 for RAF as K.Mk.2
1125 Projected VC10 hybrid for Aerolineas Argentinas
1152 Variant for BOAC with large cargo door and freight handling system for
combi operations
1164 Tanker conversion of Type 1154 for RAF as K.Mk.3
1170 Tanker conversion of Type 1151 for RAF as K.Mk.4
1180 Projected double-deck Super VC10 with 249 passengers
1181 Projected double-deck Super VC10 with 273 passengers
1400 Projected (Oct 1959-spring 1961) short range development of VC10 with 4 RR
Spey engine 80-138 passengers 6-abreast, cancelled in favour of BAC 1-11
VC10 military transport project
 

Boogey

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@ hesham Thanks very much for the entire list of Vickers aircraft :)

Having compared it with my list of military Vickers aircraft 1910 - 1950, some observations occur to me :
1. No Type numbers on my list :
- Valentia ( 2eng. bipl. flying boat bomber - reco., Saunders - Roe A.5 licence ) ;
- Vellox ( 2eng. bipl. fixed g. transport ) ;
- Vernon ( 2eng. bipl. fixed g. bomber - ambulance - transport ) ;
- Vigilant ( flying boat of unknown configuration ) ;
- V.I.M. ( 1eng. bipl. fixed g. trainer ).
2. Remarks :
- Type 57 - originally named Vulcan > Virginia I ;
- Type 60 - Viking IV ;
- Type 71 - Vixen I ;
- Type 78 - Viking VI > Vulture I ;
- Type 83 - Viking VII > Vanellus ;
- Type 87 - Vixen II ;
- Type 91 - Vixen III ;
- Type 105 - Vixen IV ;
- Type 106 - Vixen III ;
- Type 116 - Vixen V ;
- Type 122 - Virginia ;
- Type 124 - Vixen VI ;
- Type 130 - Vivid ;
- Type 146 - Vivid ;
- Type 148 - Vixen III ;
- Type 155 - Vendace III ;
- Type 157 - Vendace II ;
- Type 161 - C.O.W. Gun Fighter ;
- Type 192 - Vildebeest II ;
- Type 194 - Vildebeest III ;
- Type 196 - Jockey III ;
- Type 216 - Vildebeest VII ;

End of page one of my list ; to be continued ..
 

Jos Heyman

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Some more that I picked up:
230: Transport aircaft to meet Spec C.26/31
623 Viking 1B: Version for the RAF where it was known as Viking C.2.
626 Viking 1B: Version for the RAF where it was known as Viking C.s. The serial was VL248.
636 Viking: G-AJJN, for demonstration purposes.
637 Valetta C. Mk 1
673 Valiant B.Mk 2
825 Red Rapier. Ground launched flying bomb. Drop tests were carried out at Woomera but the programme was cancelled in 1954.
888 Red Dean: Air-to-air missile that had been developed by Folland but taken over by Vickers in 1953. Cancelled
 

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may be Red Rapier it's type 725 ?
type 825 it's Viscount for Black Lion, cancelled

Plus
type 891 -Anti-Tank Missile Vigilante
 

hesham

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Hi,

FB-4 was a project with a more streamlined nacells centred between
the wings and only two tailbooms.
FB-28 was Vimy commercial.
Type-799 was not a bomber for R.156T but it was a car ferry to meet
the Spec. OR.323,it had high wing and powered either two
Tyne or four Dart turboprops with a raised cockpit.
 

Boogey

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The rest of remarks from my list of military Vickers aircraft 1910 - 1950
about those airplanes types which were not described in the previous rolls :
- Type 225 - Vanox ;
- Type 231 - bomber / transport of unknown configuration ( hesham's C.26 / 31 ) ;
- Type 246 - wasn't as a matter of fact named Wellesley, designed as a bomber only ;
- Type 271 - originally named Crecy > Wellington ;
- Type 415 - Wellington I C, not Westland ;D ;
- Type 432 - 2eng. monopl. rectr. g. high alt. fighter ;
- Type 433 - originally named Warwick III > Windsor ;
- Type 445 - experimental Wellington II with the Whittle W.2 B jet engine added ;
- Type 446 - 2eng. monopl. rectr. g. high alt. fighter ;
- Type 448 - Wellington X ;
- Type 470 - experimental Wellington II with the Whittle W.2 B jet engine added ;
- Type 476 - Warwick ( hesham's Windsor fifth prototype ??? ) ;
- Type 482 - Windsor ( hesham's V.C.2 ??? ) ;
- Type 486 - experimental Wellington II with the Whittle W.2 / 700 jet engine added ;
- Type 601 - Windsor II ;
- Type 638 - Wellington X

My list ends on Vickers Type 648 Varsity I.
 

Stargazer2006

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Thanks a million times to you all for diving into the long and complex history of Vickers designations.

This thread has fascinated me and enabled me to come up with a very detailed Excel chart recapitulating all known Vickers and Supermarine Type numbers in sequence. Everything fits in very nicely, and these are the only inconsistencies or mysteries remaining:

- Type 227 appears both at a Southampton AND a Vildebeest III
- Type 231 is given as a Vickers by some, as a Supermarine by others
- Types 246 and 268 sometimes appear as the Wellesley (apparently a mistake)
- Types 422 and 611 sometimes appears as Warwick variants but I'm not certain
- Type 432 appears both as a twin-engine high altitude fighter AND a Wellington VI
- Isn't type 453 too early to be the VC-2?
- Type 482 appears both as a Windsor AND a VC-2
- Type 825 is supposed to be a cancelled Viscount for Black Lion; Red Rapier could be Type 725
- Type 1180 is given both as a projected double-deck Super VC-10 AND an RAF VC-10 conversion

As an aside (but part of the same type list), we don't seem to know the Type numbers for the production Supermarine Attacker and Scimitar types.

Thanks to anyone who can help!
 

Apophenia

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Not complete but production Attackers (F1, FB1, and FB2) all seem to be Type 398. Pakistani Attacker was Type 538. Production Scimitar was Type 544.

Supermarine Attacker Type Numbers

392 - Attacker prototype
398 - 1st naval prototype, Attacker F1
513 - 2nd naval prototype
538 - Pakistan AF order

Supermarine Scimitar Type Numbers

505 - straight wing, flexible deck landing
508 - 505 with retractable gear, V tail

525 - swept wings, conventional tail (conv. of 3rd 508)
526 - de-navalized 525 for RAF
529 - 508 with cannon armament
543 - undercarriage-less fighter
544 - Scimitar, strike fighter dev. of 525
 

hesham

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Stargazer2006 said:
Thanks a million times to you all for diving into the long and complex history of Vickers designations.

This thread has fascinated me and enabled me to come up with a very detailed Excel chart recapitulating all known Vickers and Supermarine Type numbers in sequence. Everything fits in very nicely, and these are the only inconsistencies or mysteries remaining:

- Type 227 appears both at a Southampton AND a Vildebeest III
- Type 231 is given as a Vickers by some, as a Supermarine by others
- Types 246 and 268 sometimes appear as the Wellesley (apparently a mistake)
- Types 422 and 611 sometimes appears as Warwick variants but I'm not certain
- Type 432 appears both as a twin-engine high altitude fighter AND a Wellington VI
- Isn't type 453 too early to be the VC-2?
- Type 482 appears both as a Windsor AND a VC-2
- Type 825 is supposed to be a cancelled Viscount for Black Lion; Red Rapier could be Type 725
- Type 1180 is given both as a projected double-deck Super VC-10 AND an RAF VC-10 conversion

As an aside (but part of the same type list), we don't seem to know the Type numbers for the production Supermarine Attacker and Scimitar types.

Thanks to anyone who can help!
My dear Stargazer,you most to know that;

422 & 611 were a Wrawick aircraft
432 fighter
442 was Wellington VI
453 was VC.2 as in the book,British Civil Aircraft Since 1919
482 was VC.2
483 was Windsore B.1
1180 double deck Super VC.10

http://www.vc10.net/History/doubledeck_super_vc10.html
 

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Jos Heyman

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Stargazer2006 said:
Thanks a million times to you all for diving into the long and complex history of Vickers designations.

This thread has fascinated me and enabled me to come up with a very detailed Excel chart recapitulating all known Vickers and Supermarine Type numbers in sequence. Everything fits in very nicely, and these are the only inconsistencies or mysteries remaining:

- Type 227 appears both at a Southampton AND a Vildebeest III
- Type 231 is given as a Vickers by some, as a Supermarine by others
Both Supermarine and Vickers had designs in the 200 range. After that 300 and 500 ranges were exclusively for Supermarine.
 

Stargazer2006

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Yeah, found out that from 1 to 200 it is mostly Vickers (Supermarine had their own S.numbers before merging with Vickers). Then 300 is Supermarine, 400 is Vickers, 500 is Supermarine, 600 and above is Vickers (there are a couple of exceptions but on the whole it works).
 

Stargazer2006

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Now that my Vickers/Supermarine listing is pretty much complete, I'm left with three mystery (read: seemingly undesignated) planes:

1°) the Vickers VIM biplane of 1919 (one photo exists).
2°) the Vickers Valentia flying boat of 1921 (3 built)
3°) the Vickers Vigilant flying boat (apparently also of 1921) (2 built).

On the other hand, I have the "Vickers Type 77" designation unaccounted for in exactly that timespan, described as possibly a flying boat, leading me to conclude that it is most certainly either of these.

Although I have images of the Valentia (not to be mistaken with the later transport of the same name), nowhere have I found images of the Vigilant (not to be mistaken for the much later missile of the same name!). The most surprising thing is the description of it that was given in a 1920 Flight issue, as being powered by eight 700 hp Rolls-Royce Condor engines in order to carry up to 100 passengers! That's right! 2400 hp in 1921! Dubious, eh? I very much doubt that if built in that configuration, it would have left such a small mark in aviation history... Besides, two Vigilants appear on US Navy listings at the time while the said article describes it as a future RAF type...

Any help on these two birds will be greatly appreciated!
 

robunos

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Vickers VIM :-

The Vickers VIM (Vickers Instructional Machine) was built from surplus F.E.2d components,
with a completely re-designed nacelle, with dual controls, the pupil occupying the front
seat. It was powered by a surplus RR Eagle VIII bought from Ardisco.
A batch of 35 VIMs was ordered by the Chinese government in 1919, along with 40 Vimy
Commercials and 20 reconditioned Avro 504Ks. The aim was to establish a civil aviation
complex in China, but the results fell short of expectations, probably due to political
instability.
The VIM had no type number allocated.

Vickers Valentia flying boat :-

The Vickers Valentia flying boat was intended as a replacement for the Porte-Felixstowe F.5,
itself an unsatisfactory replacement for the Felixstowe F.3It was not adopted because of the
numbers of F.3s and F.5s still in service, and on grounds of national economy.
Three were ordered, N124-N126. N124 and N126 were completed and flown, it is not known
how far N125 had progressed. The hulls were built by S.E. Saunders and Co., acquired by
Vickers in 1918, but sold again in 1921.
The Valentia had no type number allocated.

Vickers Vigilant :-

1920 project for a flying boat powered by eight coupled RR Condors.
Span 220', max weight 49 Tons, max range 2,000 miles.
The structure was to be all duralumin.
The Vigilant had no type number allocated.

Type 77 :-

Type 77 was a Vickers Viking IV amphibian, built for Argentina.

From Putnam's 'Vickers', pp. 116-7, 477-479, and 560.
Hope this helps,


cheers,
Robin.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Thank you so much Robin for your precious input! :)
I am however more than disturbed by the thought that these three aircraft never got a proper Type designation... :-\
 

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Type 725 - Red Rapier
Type 711 - 1/3 scale Red Rapier (air dropped) (also called Type 719 in text)
Type 715 - Full scale prototype Red Rapier (? slightly unclear)

889 - Vigilant ATGM
891 - Vigilant ATGM
897 - Vigilant ATGM

Source:
John Forbat, The Secret World of Vickers Guided Weapons
 

robunos

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You're welcome......

I am however more than disturbed by the thought that these three aircraft never got a proper Type designation..
Again from Putnam's 'Vickers', page 494 :-

"Vickers type number and drawings system was clarified and codified by Paul Wyland,
chief draughtsman at Weybridge in 1919. Until then, identification of types was
varied by the the diversity of designs...
No complete and authentic record has survived of the 53 types which preceded type 54,
with which Wyland started his new list." (my bold)

Basically, before Wyland started his list, the aircraft's name *was* it's type number,
eg E.S.1, or F.B.5.


cheers,
Robin.
 

Stargazer2006

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robunos said:
The VIM had no type number allocated.
robunos said:
The Valentia had no type number allocated.
robunos said:
The Vigilant had no type number allocated.
Wouldn't it be safer to say that it SEEMS like no type number was allocated?

In the case of the V.I.M., there are many F.B. designations missing such as F.B.17,18, 20-23, 25. Could be one of these perhaps? As for the others, apparently there are still numbers in that time sequence (circa 1920-21) that are unaccounted for: Types 65, 68, 70, 75, 80 do not seem to be documented (unless there is a full list available somewhere that I'm not aware of). The Vernon (troop transport version of the Vimy Commercial), Valentia and Vigilant could very well have been among these.
 

Stargazer2006

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Actually, Type 70 was apparently the Viking V for Iraq.
 

robunos

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Wouldn't it be safer to say that it SEEMS like no type number was allocated?
You are correct, of course, I should have said that there is no
'Type xx' number against these aircraft in the list in Putnam's Vickers'. :-[ :'(

Regarding the 'missing' numbers you mention :-

F.B.17, F.B.18, listed in Putnam's 'Vickers' as,

F.B.17 145hp Hispano Suiza Equal span 38'3"
F.B.18 150hp Hart Span 35'6" (top), 30' (lower)
no further details given in this book.
J.M.Bruce's 'Fighters 1914-18 volume III' says only this,
at the start of the section on the F.B.19,

"The Vickers F.B.17 and F.B.18 did not progress beyond the
project stage."

F.B.20-22, no information given.

F.B.23, a 1916 development of the 'gunbus' formula, proposed
in no less than three versions, with different engines,
F.B.23 150hp Salmson
F.B.23A 150hp Hart
F.B.23B 200hp Hispano Suiza
Span 38' (top) 33' (lower), chord 6'3" and 5'6".

Obolete in concept at the time of it's birth, the F.B.23 was
developed into a two seat night fighter in the same category
as the RAF N.E.1.
This Type was designated F.B.25, and was designed to be
powered by the 200hp Hispano Suiza.
The tail and tailboom assemblies were identical to those of
the F.B.23, and the wings, now of equal span, 41'6", and
chord, 6'3", used components from the earlier design.
The crew sat in staggered side by side seats, the gunner
ahead and to starboard of the pilot, to operate the Vickers
Rocket Gun armament. A nosewheel was fitted, and a searchlight
was mounted on the nose.
As actually built, the F.B.25 lacked both the nosewheel, and the
searchlight, most serious of all, however, was the engine fitted,
which was a 150hp Hispano Suiza, rather than the 200hp version
specified.
Underpowered, and with alarmingly bad flying qualities, the aircraft
was rejected for service, and crashed in May 1917.
The designation was F.B.25A was alloted for the 200hp version,
but was never taken up.
sources :- Putnam's 'Vickers', pp. 68 & 70,
'Fighters 1914-18 volume III' pp.123-5.

Putnam's 'Vickers' type list gives :-

F.B.23 Improved gunbus 150hp Salmson Project
F.B.23A " " 150hp Hart "
F.B.23B " " 200hp Hispano Suiza "

F.B.25 150hp Hispano Suiza Night Fighter
F.B.25 150hp Hispano Suiza With Crayford Rocket
Gun, crashed


Type 65, no information given
Type 68, Vulcan RR Eagle VIII Project-Colonial
Type 70, Viking IV Napier Lion Stock (civil)
Type 75, Vulcan RR Eagle VIII Stock (fuselages)
Type 80, no information given



Cheers,
Robin.
 

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Hi,

type 722 - Valiant B Mk.3 proposal (1952)
 

Stargazer2006

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Vickers designations are so numerous that we are bound to have gaps for a while... Anyway, here is a list of missing designations in my own list:

- 65, 80, 86, 88, 90, 97
- 101, 104, 107, 109, 110, 114, 118, 126, 127, 135, 136, 137, 140, 152, 153, 154, 156, 158, 159, 164, 165, 167, 174, 175, 176, 191, 197
- 200, 201, 202, 205, 206, 211, 213, 215, 219, 243, 247, 248, 251, 254, 257, 260, 261, 265, 269, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 282, 288
- 404, 411, 412, 425, 427, 434, 438, 441, 444, 450, 452, 463, 464, 465, 468, 472, 475, 477, 481, 484, 488, 489, 492, 497
- 600, 603, 605, 606, 612, 613, 617, 622, 625, 629, 631, 642, 646, 647, 650, 652, 653, 655, 656, 658, 661, 662, 665, 666, 669, 670, 671, 675 to 699*
- 704, 713, 714, 717, 721, 726, 728, 729, 731, 738, 740, 741, 746, 750, 751, 752, 753, 762, 766, 767, 774, 775, 777, 778, 783, 787, 788, 791, 792, 795, 796
- 809, 811, 817, 819, 820, 822, 824, 826, 829, 830, 834, 841, 842, 844 to 849, 851 to 859*, 861 to 869 *, 871 to 879*, 880 to 887, 890, 892 to 896, 898, 899
- a huge gap from 902 to 949*
- nothing between 954 and 999*
- nothing in 1000-series after 1004
- 1107, 1108
- a huge gap from 1113 to 1124*
- a huge gap from 1126 to 1149*
- a gap from 1155 to 1163
- a gap from 1165 to 1169*
- a gap from 1171 to 1179*
- nothing from 1181 to 1399*

* probably not allocated

The following (previously listed as "Vickers OR Supermarine") turn out to be Supermarine, not Vickers:
- 178, 180 to 184, 186 to 189, 222, 226, 229, 233, 234, 237 (confusion here), 240
... but they're still unaccounted for.

NOTES:

1°) I'm avoiding all that's before Model 54, because they were not very well documented, and I could only find Types 18, 22 and 30.
2°) When Vickers and Supermarine merged, the two companies used the Vickers system, first with Supermarine using batches of numbers in the midst of the Vickers sequence, then with the allocation of the 300+ and 500+ numbers.
3°) Supermarine type number mysteries ought to be solved in the Supermarine-related topic.
 

Stargazer2006

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Our distinguished forum member AM was kind enough to send me his own Vickers-Supermarine list for comparison. It appears that most of the designations he had and I didn't have were related to unbuilt projects.

It will take a little while to compile it all in a browser friendly form, but suffice it to say there are not too many missing designations left now, compared to what I initially posted above. I will cross out the solved mysteries one by one and leave only the type designators that are still unknown to both of us.

Thanks a lot, AM! ;)
 
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