Unguided anti-aircraft weapons

Grzesio

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2 cm Luftfaust would be completely ineffective. Especially due to awful and uncontrolled spread of rockets, reaching 20 per cent of the shooting distance. Ergo, nine rockets covered a 40 m area in the distance of 200 m, then 100 m (or more) at the intended combat distance of 500 m - hence obtaining even a single hit on an attacking fighter was a question of pure luck, not aiming. For example, by comparision to the frontal area of a P 47, the hit probability with 9 rocket salvo would be 4.5 per cent in the distance of 200 m and 1.1 per cent in the 400 m distance. So for obtaining a statistical hit 22 salvos were needed for 200 m and 91 for 400 m distance.
You can easily imagine this spread - if one fired a Luftfaust horizontally, from the shoulder in standing position, the nearest rocket could hit the ground as close as 7 meters from the shooter.
Probably salvo firing with vast number of launchers would bring some chances for success, I even encountered a mention in a Russian book that hit probability was estimated as "high" in this case - but a single hit with a 2 cm shell was still not the best way of bringing down a solid late war fighter bomber. Probably explosions of selfdestructing shells, some 300-400 m from the launcher, would be the most influential (psychologically) effect of the Luftfaust.

Regards

Grzesio
 

Rickshaw

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red admiral said:
Does anyone have any thoughts as how effective either the Luftfaust or Fliegerfaust would be? Aiming is just point and shoot with low velocity projectiles. The British found the 2" and 3" UP rockets to be largely useless a couple of years before.

Really? On what basis? My understanding is that 3" "Z Batteries" were actually quite effective. Particularly against the V-1 threat.
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

Here the 10,5cm Skoda rocket launcher
http://henk.fox3000.com/panther.htm

Many greetings
 

Petrus

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Perhaps you'll find it interesting that in Czechoslovakia works on unguided anti-aircraft 105mm rockets were being continued after the end of the WW2. Some prototypes were constructed in the mid-1950s but no such weapons became operational.

Here are some pictures of the post-war launcher.

Best regards,
Piotr
 

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moin1900

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Hi everybody

Mercedes 4500 with three Taifun rockets ?
http://modellbau-schatton.privat.t-online.de/html/preisliste.html
http://www.modellbau-schatton.privat.t-online.de/assets/images/3542.jpg
More Pictures
http://www.modellboard.net/index.php?topic=26325.0
 

Grzesio

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The historical background described in the model's manual looks like a fairy tale for me - hidden documents miraculously surviving 60 years. What's more, its author incorrectly spells Sheuffelen with double f, what makes me doubt, he has seen any original documents connected with this person.
Anyway, I'll try to check Scheufelen's memoires for any traces of this activity.

Regards

Grzesio
 

Grzesio

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So it seems, there's something of a true story there - Scheufelen went to Bavaria on train with evacuated material and personnel indeed, where they stucked on a local station. But there's still no clue about anything like that big Taifun.

By the way. Does anybody have any idea, why is the Foehn popularly considered to be a Henschel design? And where this deceiving designation HS 217 comes from?

Regards

Grzesio
 

Grzesio

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Just an interesting notice - quite a lot of Flakrakete 42 remains was found recently on an ammunition disposal site. It includes empty warheads, turbines and blown combustion chambers.
 

marauder2048

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Funnily enough, many of these concepts would be revived for terminal ABM (against RVs that couldn't maneuver below 10,000 ft); Porcupine/Pebble Curtain and Swarm Jet to name just a few.
 
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CostasTT

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Russian RS series rocket mounts used in AA role - pictures below.

Some postwar projects:
1. Chilean 8x5" HVAR mount using the carriage of the US 37mm AA gun - pictures below.
2. Setter (has been discussed here).
 

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cluttonfred

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Interesting stuff. Could any of these unguided systems at least set a timed or altitude fuse before launch or did they rely on proximity or contact? With a timed or altitude fuse I could see a salvo of these at least ruining the aim of anyone trying to attack a ground target otherwise I dont's see much point.
 

athpilot

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Hi!
Fliegerfaust "in action"...
 

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CostasTT

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cluttonfred said:
Interesting stuff. Could any of these unguided systems at least set a timed or altitude fuse before launch or did they rely on proximity or contact? With a timed or altitude fuse I could see a salvo of these at least ruining the aim of anyone trying to attack a ground target otherwise I dont's see much point.
I looked again at the sources for the pictures and there is no mention of time or proximity fuzes for the rockets, so they would have been contact fuzed only. However, the smoke trails from their launch could potentially be enough to make an attacking pilot think twice about braving a rocket barrage over the target area.
 

CJGibson

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You might like to have a look at Ripfire and Autofire as described in Battle Flight.

Chris
 

JohnR

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I have a vague recollection of an 1970/80's British system called Seafox, which IIRC was a unguided rocket system intended as CIWS (the rockets were possibly hypersonic).

I would be grateful for any additional information you gents may have.

Regards.
 

CJGibson

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All I know of Sea Fox is that it was a shipborne system firing unguided projectiles and was not proceeded with. I'll have a rummage in my files in case I've missed something.

Chris
 

Kiltonge

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Some notes on Genie's motor. Interestingly the entire aft section of the missile, including fins, was provided as a unitary motor assembly:

The currently established shelf/service life for the AIR-2A "Genie" Rocket Motor is 27 months.

The rocket is composed of four major components; the A/A44A-1A Rocket Motor, the Mk-25 Mod 0 Nuclear Warhead, the MXU-35/A (or MA-l) Igniter and the MA-lA Firing Mechanism.

The A/A44A-1A Rocket Motor is composed of a motor case, electrical harness, pressure actuated fins, aft closure and exit cone assembly and a solid propellant grain.

The grain configuration is a complex twelve point star configuration and is bonded to the motor case.

The complete motor weighs approximately 500 pounds with the propellant grain comprising 328 pounds of this weight.

The MA-l igniter is a pyrotechnic unit weighing approximately 3.25 pounds and is composed of an adapter, basket assembly, four squibs, and the explosive charge. The squibs are electrically initiated.

And for disposal:

The most successful method tested was removing the exit cone from the rocket motor, burying the rocket motor vertically (36-48 inches deep) then static firing it with an MXU-35/A igniter or MA-1 Igniter. This is the only recommended method for disposing of Genie Rocket Motors.


http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/833638.pdf
 

Pioneer

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Ah...has anyone mentioned the French Javelot anti-air weapons system?

See http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5480.0


Regards
Pioneer
 

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Grzesio

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It has to be noted, Luftfaust A projectiles were NOT rockets. They were just 2 cm cannon shells with sheet metal fins attached via a short shaft.
The thing marked 10 in the drawing is just a quickmatch igniting a tracer (7) acting as a self-destructor.
 

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Dilandu

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In 1950-1956, USSR developed and tested RZS-115 "Voron" (rus. raven) anti-air rocket system. The target was tracked by SON-30 gun-laying radar, the automatic computer calculated the interception, and twelve 120-round S-80 launchers discarged in sequence. The rockets itself were solid-fuel, capable of reaching 16500 km altitude, and were equipped with time fuses. The system was intended to protect cities and fixed installations from bomber raids
While on trials the system worked as intended, the guided missile program was - correctly - assumed to be much more promising, so "Voron" was cancelled.
 

Grzesio

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While on trials the system worked as intended, the guided missile program was - correctly - assumed to be much more promising, so "Voron" was cancelled.
Weren't there some problems with the RZS-115 concept? Like insufficient horizontal range, as well as unsatisfactory kill probability as compared to 100 and 130 mm AA guns in the face of very high projectile expense?
 

Pioneer

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In 1950-1956, USSR developed and tested RZS-115 "Voron" (rus. raven) anti-air rocket system. The target was tracked by SON-30 gun-laying radar, the automatic computer calculated the interception, and twelve 120-round S-80 launchers discarged in sequence. The rockets itself were solid-fuel, capable of reaching 16500 km altitude, and were equipped with time fuses. The system was intended to protect cities and fixed installations from bomber raids
While on trials the system worked as intended, the guided missile program was - correctly - assumed to be much more promising, so "Voron" was cancelled.
Is there any pics or drawings of this RZS-115 "Voron" Dilandu?

MAD
 
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SeaslugMk2

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red admiral said:
Does anyone have any thoughts as how effective either the Luftfaust or Fliegerfaust would be? Aiming is just point and shoot with low velocity projectiles. The British found the 2" and 3" UP rockets to be largely useless a couple of years before.

Really? On what basis? My understanding is that 3" "Z Batteries" were actually quite effective. Particularly against the V-1 threat.
AFAIK Z-batteries remained in use around Portsmouth Dockyard until 1944; my father (as a member of the Dockyard Home Guard) was an ammunition number on one of them.
The rockets were then developed into the LCT(R) for shore bombardment and also the unsung Land Mattress (surface to surface) weapon.

SRJ.
 
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