The "method in the madness" is that as far as I know the airframe and engines problems of TSR.2 had been "sorted out" by the time it was cancelled or at least "the end was in sight" and it was the avionics that were the problem.
I don't think you can say that. The had only just started development test and had already encountered several major non-avionics issues with landing gear, fin, engine.

The engine was cleared for one single flight at a time! That is not "sorted"
 
The "method in the madness" is that as far as I know the airframe and engines problems of TSR.2 had been "sorted out" by the time it was cancelled or at least "the end was in sight" and it was the avionics that were the problem.
I don't think you can say that. The had only just started development test and had already encountered several major non-avionics issues with landing gear, fin, engine.

The engine was cleared for one single flight at a time! That is not "sorted"
There's always someone that has to ruin it. On this occasion with a sensible answer.

That being written. How much did the Olympus engines on the Concorde and TSR.2 have in common? Was some of the money needed to complete the development of the TSR.2s engines spent on the Concorde's engines anyway? And looking at it the other way around - would the Concorde have cost less to develop and been in service sooner if the TSR.2 hadn't been cancelled?
 
Probably the other way round: B.Ol 320 (TSR.2) concurrently with B.Ol 593 (BSEL+SNECMA) might so have stretched the team(s) as further to delay both. While both were on cost-plus R&D there was little need scrupulously to apportion work as between one, the other, both. SNECMA/DGA were on 40% of engine R&D, so were happy if BSEL's 60% escalated, 'cos then their 40% could absorb more.

PM Wilson's Offer to BAC was a ceiling of £500Mn. for R&D+(the 50 materials sets already on order, to be completed as) 50 Air Vehicles with Olympus 320, Cumulus APU, Elliott/Ferranti/Marconi/Rank Cintel avionics. It would then have been for BAC to manage and pay BSEL, Ferranti, Elliotts et so many al, which, very sensibly they chose not to do. BAC cancelled TSR.2. In part because it had been rendered obsolete by avionics evolution which made their 1964 swinger notions smaller, cheaper, and in part for the commercial impossibility of imposing probable losses, R&D +prodn., on Suppliers, one of which (Bristol Aeroplane) was an Owner. Everyone was better off without it.
 
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In that thread you also mentioned a naval fighter called the BAC Type 583 "Cutlass". That reminded me of another highlight of my "real" 1970s childhood - being allowed to stay up late and watch "Sailor". It would be a more cherished memory that if the ship had been a CVA.01 class aircraft carrier.
I had a friend help me make a similar wish come true back in 2019. A one off which I now treasure.

The Best Seven Minutes of Sailor
Which I advise everyone to watch on a full-size Monitor with Stereo Loudspeakers

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mN_jsBxVt0

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year​
 
Are there any remotely plausible ways in which the "real world's" TSR2 could have been put into service on time and at cost?
Yes, I'd say so.

First is to have a Competent Project Manager. One man in charge, who can tell the ministers what the holdup is, what they're doing to fix it, and probably how much more time and/or money it'll take to fix.

Second is a handle on the avionics (since everyone harps on avionics first). For preference I'd buy full sets of Vigilante avionics from the US, but F-105 might also work. As could A-6. Regardless, that's simply the Mark 1, "get this plane flying" version, with the definitive Mk2 version to be UK-sourced.

With known weights and volumes for say, Vigilante avionics plus 10%, you can design the rest of the Mk1 airframe around that. Ideally most of the UK-sourced components would be smaller and lighter, so you can carry more fuel as long as the CG stays put.

And since more of the design is solid, you can keep the airframe from getting into the weight death-spiral.


You are never going to replace Canberra sensibly if you're doing it in the environment pertaining to the British aircraft industry of the time.

1) TSR.2 might have got out of the starting gate less over-budget and not as late (therefore avoiding cancellation) if English Electric had been absolute project lead, with Vickers merely building part of the airframe and EE being free to choose the engines.

2) Specify an off the shelf avionics fit for the Mark 1 to get it into service while reserving space and weight for the system that was subsequently developed. This cheaper version then becomes the basis for service airframe familiarization and possibly for export.
Agreed.

Of course the chances of any of this being allowed politically are minimal. TSR2 or any Canberra replacement was always doomed until the Tornado era.
Strongly disagree here.

There are multiple aircraft of the capabilities requested that were developed in that timeframe. A-5, A-6, F-111, Su-24.


The systems required, INS + SLAR for nav, TFR for low low level flight away from SAMs and AAA, we're probably just too much for the UK to develop in the time, and even more so to integrate together.
Probably, which is why the Mk1 is getting US sourced avionics from a plane actively flying those types of missions, to buy time for the UK firms to reverse-engineer, copy, and/or improve upon.
 
So many things to add, guaranteed to miss a lot.
Avionics had been quite reasonable during the V-Bomber efforts. Increasingly sophisticated and complex. But still a lot of pre-transistor electronics.
The sidescan radar effort for example.
The EW system
Even IR spoofing by projector lamp.

Well before OR.339, I think for OR.330 Vickers had suggested a single seater strategic bomber using extensive automation. Ambitious, but not insane.
EE felt a crew of two is more practical and jumped on new J-band technology for a much smaller sidescan aerial on P.10 which did catch a lot of interest.

UK computer science itself didn't lag the US, much like radar science in the period.
Experience with transistors did lag obviously.
The new AI radar effort had intended to achieve the dual band system. S-band for search, and J-band for engagement with maybe a third Q-band for backup in intense EW. But scaled back to fit a test system in a Valiant and the scaled back further because they couldn't get a V-Bomber and ultimately made do with a Canberra.

TSR.2 sits in a time when the avionics side in the UK overreached in ambition. The planned digital INS for P.1154 being the obvious example. A simpler (cheaper) analogue system made it to service.
Much as ADAWS was originally conceived to handle enormous amounts of data from Type 985 PESA system. The earlier CDS and 'Notorious' Type 984 had actually led the field ahead of the US.

Yet in many cases it was just around the corner when the hardware caught up with the systems designed.

TSR.2 gets design fix just before Texas Instruments showes off intigrated circuit technology.
 
The complicating factor is that roles that required specialist aircraft in the 50s can be done by an aircraft capable of covering other roles by the 60s. So in the RAF context a Canberra replacement should be seen as Canberra-Hunter or Canberra-V bomber replacement. This has the added advantage of increasing the fleet size in order amortise costs over the largest number of aircraft.

We know the RAF wanted the Canberra-V bomber path but pretty much ended up with the Canberra-Hunter replacement. Both are valid, but niether are cheap and easy.
 
There are multiple aircraft of the capabilities requested that were developed in that timeframe. A-5, A-6, F-111, Su-24.
Two not considered (or considered and rejected early), one extensively bought-into prior to cancellation in its turn, and one unavailable (I cannot for one minute imagine the Russians selling the Su-24 to Britain at that time).

The solution I propose - letting EE be absolute team leader with Vickers being second fiddle - was not acceptable politically to the British Government. They wanted amalgamations on their terms, regardless of what it did to projects in progress.
 
Two not considered (or considered and rejected early), one extensively bought-into prior to cancellation in its turn, and one unavailable (I cannot for one minute imagine the Russians selling the Su-24 to Britain at that time).

The solution I propose - letting EE be absolute team leader with Vickers being second fiddle - was not acceptable politically to the British Government. They wanted amalgamations on their terms, regardless of what it did to projects in progress.
Any of those aircraft had all the avionics capabilities that the TSR2 needed. A5, F111, and Su24 even had the speed and range as well.

So the requirements are physically possible to achieve in an aircraft. A5 was rejected for purchase due to the linear bomb bay (and rightly so!), but you could have grabbed the A5 avionics to use as the interim fit on the British-built aircraft. With careful phrasing of the purchase contract, you might even be able to avoid the import costs skyrocketing due to devaluation of the pound (just takes writing the payment amount in pounds not dollars).
 
With careful phrasing of the purchase contract, you might even be able to avoid the import costs skyrocketing due to devaluation of the pound (just takes writing the payment amount in pounds not dollars).
I'm not sure the US suppliers would be daft enough to fall for that one!
The solution I propose - letting EE be absolute team leader with Vickers being second fiddle - was not acceptable politically to the British Government. They wanted amalgamations on their terms, regardless of what it did to projects in progress.
A similar example shows up with the proposed Airco consortium for production of the DH.121; de Havilland proposed a partnership between themselves, Hunting, and Fairey, which was dismissed by the Ministry as 'not quite what we had in mind'. In 1958 that's a reasonably interesting looking group. You have the Comet, the DH.121, and the Hunting 107 - which evolved into the BAC One-Eleven - all in the same group; the DH.125 is in the not-too-distant future, giving a very solid commercial aircraft business. The military side isn't quite as strong, but has some interesting prospects, in particular the de Havilland guided weapons group.
 
To be fair though, Hunting (Percival) had a smaller commercial history, the Percival Prince and President were hardly big sellers and it was a big leap of faith that they could carry out the 107 and Fairey by 1958 was passing the peak of its powers with not very much on the design board or in terms of future production prospects. So not the strongest solution, Hunting and Fairey would have effectively become subsidiaries of DH.
But I agree it would have been an interesting line up (makes you wonder if they might not have attempted a civil Jet Provost, or maybe a four-seater version?).
 
I'm not sure the US suppliers would be daft enough to fall for that one!
You're probably right, but the other way around foreign exchange woes is to simply buy the avionics earlier. Get 50 sets of avionics before devaluation, and you likely have enough to earmark a couple sets as your reverse-engineering examples plus 5-6 squadrons worth of flying Mk1 electronics fits and spares.

Another advantage is that having a decently large number of avionics sets on hand 1) prevents delivery delays and 2) plays normally into the usual manufacturing processes of the time, instead of Just In Time deliveries.
 
Any of those aircraft had all the avionics capabilities that the TSR2 needed. A5, F111, and Su24 even had the speed and range as well.
None of this is in question. The problem one keeps on returning to is that a process which started out as English Electric's bid to replace its own Canberra with a better battlefield strike/attack interdictor became an industry-amalgamation process to produce an aircraft whose purpose was pushed over the edge into short-range strategic nuclear strike.

And the only way I see this working is if EE is absolute project lead with Vickers building what they are told to build, with EE getting their choice of powerplant and not the government's, and with the airplane's design and purpose not permitted to creep. Maybe then, without the hassle of melding the two companies and trying to blend EE's winning design with Vickers' shattered dreams, EE can realize early that VERDAN is too immature to work without massive development overruns, and that an off-the-shelf solution has to be chosen early.

EE did an outstanding job with Canberra and Lightning (the latter even more so in the context of what Lightning started out as), and should have been trusted with management of TSR.2.
 
Vickers preferred their Single Engine Type 571.
As it was obviously going to be cheaper.
Hit performance criteria especially the 600nm RoA.
Would run off South Marston factory (Scimitar) nicely.
Retained option for navalisation, being halfway there already (firehouse catapult and arrestor hook)
And while they talked about swappable packages for missions, they obviously were thinking it's easier to configure off the production line variants for certain missions.

RAF chose the less refined twin engined design.....
 
F105 Thunderchief offers an interesting possibility for both the UK and US.
The two seater Thunderchief in particular was a formidable aircraft.
 
F105 Thunderchief offers an interesting possibility for both the UK and US.
The two seater Thunderchief in particular was a formidable aircraft.
Combat range of 675nmi/1250km, though. I thought we were going for 1000nmi/2200km?

Also, only space in the bomb bay for 1 nuke.
 
Combat range of 675nmi/1250km, though. I thought we were going for 1000nmi/2200km?

Also, only space in the bomb bay for 1 nuke.
Good enough for the 600nm RoA.
There were options for Olympus or Conway instead of US engine.
 
I think the one nuke rather than two is a good thing. The UK is not exactly awash with them.
A decent Canberra replacement should be similar sized or smaller with emphasis on conventional as well as nuke missions.
Thunderchief is the best option after the Buccaneer and has some advantages.
I think that the RAF needs to come clean about replacing Valiant/Vulcan in the theatre nuclear/penetrator role.
As only a maximum of 75 such aircraft are needed after 1971 the choice is between FB111 or UKVG depending on funds and policy.
UKVG is better than AFVG and MRCA. An ADV version would be much closer to the strike/recce version than Tornado or TSR2.
 
Good enough for the 600nm RoA.
There were options for Olympus or Conway instead of US engine.
Pretty sure the powers-that-be would demand the Canberra's replacement have equal or better range, and that means a 700nmi or greater RoA.



I think the one nuke rather than two is a good thing. The UK is not exactly awash with them.
A decent Canberra replacement should be similar sized or smaller with emphasis on conventional as well as nuke missions.
Thunderchief is the best option after the Buccaneer and has some advantages.
I think that the RAF needs to come clean about replacing Valiant/Vulcan in the theatre nuclear/penetrator role.
As only a maximum of 75 such aircraft are needed after 1971 the choice is between FB111 or UKVG depending on funds and policy.
UKVG is better than AFVG and MRCA. An ADV version would be much closer to the strike/recce version than Tornado or TSR2.
IIRC, that was the cause of the 2-nuke requirement. If that is right, then the RAF admitting that they also need to replace Valiant and Vulcan would get the Canberra replacement only requiring one bomb.
 
maybe Canberra shouldn't be replaced at all?
as we know today,brakeing many window while flying low were somehow pointless
how about a heavily upgraded Canberra(/maybe with new name)?
-retrofited wing with high-lift device
-new large turbofan with reverse
->STOL
-stronger frame and new electronics(if possible) for low attack
->much money should be svaed for many stand alone missile...
 
IIRC, that was the cause of the 2-nuke requirement. If that is right, then the RAF admitting that they also need to replace Valiant and Vulcan would get the Canberra replacement only requiring one bomb.
The two-weapon requirement came about primarily because of a political restriction dictating that 'tactical' weapons couldn't exceed ten kilotons.

All of the initial bids were designed around one weapon, but that weapon was assumed to be the size and weight of Red Beard. A weapons bay that can take one of them is all but guaranteed to be able to take two lightweight thermonuclear weapons.
But it was actually Vickers' proposal that won GOR.339 competition and not EE
According to Burke:
  • The RAE preferrred a teaming of English Electric, Vickers and Shorts, with English Electric having design leadership.
  • Controller Aircraft felt that Vickers should have design leadership, with English Electric as partners and Shorts reduced to a supporting role
  • The Ministry of Supply hedged its bets, saying it preferred the English Electric design and Vickers management.
The result was that both companies felt that they had some claim to the win, and that TSR.2 was 'their' project on which the other company was muscling in, despite Vickers being named prime contractor.
 
Sounds to me like they should have ordered two projects (Muhahahahaha!!!).
TSR.2 Vs TSR.3
 
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