RAF 1946 versus Luftwaffe 1946?

[Orionblamblam]

One or two prototype aircraft flying half way across the world as the basis for a major military raid. Mr Gingrich shouldn’t give up his day job – whatever that is…

Writing a trilogy of wet dreams about a protracted American Civil War. Those pesky abolitionists.

Actually, Gingrich finished that trilogy some years ago. According to the Wiki entry on it, the US (you know, the Republicans under Lincoln, those pesky abolitionists) still winds up spanking the Confederates (you know, the Democrats, those pesky slaveowners).

Civil War alternate history never interested me too much (apart from Harry Harrisons take on it), but "what if the battle of Gettysburg turned out differently" is a fair question.

Gingrich is now working on another series of alternate WWII books, based on the premise that the Japanese Navy launched a third strike on Pearl Harbor rather than just the two.

 

[prolific1]

Yeah those pesky Liberals (Republicans at the time) and those dang Conservatives (Democrats up until the end of the civil rights era).

 

[prolific1]

I think he's writing some more "Bringing God back into America" stuff on how the founding fathers intended the US to be a theological democracy with Christianity as the faith De Jeur.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Yeah those pesky Liberals (Republicans at the time) and those dang Conservatives (Democrats up until the end of the civil rights era).

And now that "liberal" and "conservative" have completely flopped *meanings,* we're back to where we started. Off topic.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I think he's writing some more "Bringing God back into America" stuff on how the founding fathers intended the US to be a theological democracy with Christianity as the faith De Jeur.

Considering as how that's pretty much not what his political career up to this point has been about, I'm curious about your source.

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

I like where this thread is going... :-*

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

I think he's writing some more "Bringing God back into America" stuff on how the founding fathers intended the US to be a theological democracy with Christianity as the faith De Jeur.

Considering as how that's pretty much not what his political career up to this point has been about, I'm curious about your source.

Newt's been moving that way over the last few years.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/06/gingrichs_move_to_the_religious_right.html

http://blog.au.org/2009/03/24/hes-baaaaack-newt-gingrich-slithers-out-from-under-a-rock-again/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/19/politics/main2828219.shtml

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/6/2/182337/6209

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/gingrich-gets-a-new-religion/

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2007/05/23/noted_theologian_newt_gingrich.php

Anyhow, I think the P-80 and P-84 would have shredded the Napkinwaffe.

 

[prolific1]

Anyhow, I think the P-80 and P-84 would have shredded the Napkinwaffe. Wink

Napkinwaffe. I like that.

 

[prolific1]

I was working on a Heinkel P.1078B cutaway some years ago. It looked pretty awesome I thought. I go for more detail than a Mike Badrocke and the like. That said, I never finished it for the Nazi-obsessed aviation site - that shall remain nameless - because I can never get people who want my work to pay for it. I avoid doing stuff for free these days so I am loathe to restart/complete it.

Too bad...it looks cool. :

 

[Orionblamblam]

I was working on a Heinkel P.1078B cutaway some years ago. It looked pretty awesome I thought. I go for more detail than a Mike Badrocke and the like. That said, I never finished it for the Nazi-obsessed aviation site - that shall remain nameless - because I can never get people who want my work to pay for it. I avoid doing stuff for free these days so I am loathe to restart/complete it.

Too bad...it looks cool. :

Finish it and sell prints.

 

[RyanC]

Napkinwaffe. I like that.

It's a very apt term for late war German projects.

Take for example the Ta-152.

In either of it's versions, it's touted as being a "war winner" superplane.

But when you look at it's specifications; it ends up not being that great, as the P-51H is either faster or very competitive with simple water injection -- which in an American engine forces an overhaul faster than normal, due to increased stresses.

On the other hand, using MW-50 and/or GM-1 boost in a German engine for a period of time absolutely wrecks the engine and forces a near total rebuild of the engine afterwards.

So while the Ta-152 would be able to outrun or outclimb the P-51H, the poor Luftwaffe mechanics would have to completely tear down the engine and rebuild it after that flight, while the USAAF mechanics shake their heads at the pilot, replace some seals a bit early, and move up the scheduled overhaul.

Another good example is the Ta-183 Huckbein. It's commonly cited as being the awesomeest thing since sliced bread, due to the similarities between it and the F-86 and MiG-15 in shape.

What they don't tell you is that post-war the Argentinians built a basic copy of it with the help of Kurt Tank no less, as the the IAe Pulqui II; and it turned out to be a treacherous dog to fly, and was very stall prone.

There are a lot of unwritten rules in how to make a Swept Wing Work; one of them being that you have to build the wings in a totally different way than you've done before -- the wings now have to be very close to each other dimensionally -- you can't have gross mismatches between the port and starboard wings on a swept wing plane -- it's a lot less tolerant of inaccuracy than a straight wing aircraft.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Newt's been moving that way over the last few years.

Well, that's a damned shame. Back when he was stomping on the Clintons and leading the government into surplusses, he kicked ass. But perhaps in recent years he's gone a bit goofy.

Anyhow, I think the P-80 and P-84 would have shredded the Napkinwaffe.

Almost certainly. If for no other reason than the American planes would have shown up in far larger numbers, and made out of far better materials. Hangar queens, no matter how spectacular in the air, tend to get their butts kicked by strafing runs.

 

[prolific1]

Well, that's a damned shame. Back when he was stomping on the Clintons and leading the government into surplusses, he kicked ass. But perhaps in recent years he's gone a bit goofy.

I remember him for the $300,000 bill he had to pay for his ethics investigation (tax exemption "irregularities") and for shutting down the gubmint cuz he had to sit in the back of Air Force One with Bob Dole after Rabin's funeral.

I thought of finishing the Heinkel and doing the print thing but as with Pluto poster it may be not be financially fruitful enough. I don't want to spend ten bucks to make twelve.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I remember him for the $300,000 bill he had to pay for his ethics investigation (tax exemption "irregularities")

Yup. What was it, 64 ethics charges filed against him by the Dems, and 63 of them tossed out... leaving one which was also shut down (ruled that he didn't violate the tax system, IIRC), but he decided to pay for the investigation anyway?

and for shutting down the gubmint cuz he had to sit in the back of Air Force One with Bob Dole after Rabin's funeral.

Good times. Anytime someone shuts down the government, it's a good thing. And the more gridlock in Congress, the less they can actually do, the better.

I don't want to spend ten bucks to make twelve.

Psshaw. It's better than spending twelve bucks to make ten.

 

[prolific1]

Psshaw. It's better than spending twelve bucks to make ten.

Hahahaha...awww. This...this is truth.

"Quickest way to make a million in the motorcycle racing biz? Start with two million."

- some wag at the Indy trade show circa 2007

 

[Orionblamblam]

"Quickest way to make a million in the motorcycle racing biz? Start with two million."[/i]

- some wag at the Indy trade show circa 2007

Way I heard it: "how do you make a small fortune with a used book store? Start with a large fortune."

I suspect that the same sentiment has been expressed innumerable times regarding every form of business that someone can actually enjoy. Ask me about "aerospace history" and finances sometime.

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

Napkinwaffe. I like that.

It's a very apt term for late war German projects.

Take for example the Ta-152.

In either of it's versions, it's touted as being a "war winner" superplane.

But when you look at it's specifications; it ends up not being that great, as the P-51H is either faster or very competitive with simple water injection -- which in an American engine forces an overhaul faster than normal, due to increased stresses.

On the other hand, using MW-50 and/or GM-1 boost in a German engine for a period of time absolutely wrecks the engine and forces a near total rebuild of the engine afterwards.

So while the Ta-152 would be able to outrun or outclimb the P-51H, the poor Luftwaffe mechanics would have to completely tear down the engine and rebuild it after that flight, while the USAAF mechanics shake their heads at the pilot, replace some seals a bit early, and move up the scheduled overhaul.

Another good example is the Ta-183 Huckbein. It's commonly cited as being the awesomeest thing since sliced bread, due to the similarities between it and the F-86 and MiG-15 in shape.

What they don't tell you is that post-war the Argentinians built a basic copy of it with the help of Kurt Tank no less, as the the IAe Pulqui II; and it turned out to be a treacherous dog to fly, and was very stall prone.

There are a lot of unwritten rules in how to make a Swept Wing Work; one of them being that you have to build the wings in a totally different way than you've done before -- the wings now have to be very close to each other dimensionally -- you can't have gross mismatches between the port and starboard wings on a swept wing plane -- it's a lot less tolerant of inaccuracy than a straight wing aircraft.

IAe Pulqui II didn't have the wings in the same position as the Ta-183 Huckbein would have. I haven't studied aero-dynamics, so I really can't tell how important that is, but it could be important AFAIK.

 

[Justo Miranda]

But La-15...please see comparative drawings

 

[prolific1]

Leave it to Justo to come through with the goods. ;D

 

[Jemiba]

"..On the other hand, using MW-50 and/or GM-1 boost in a German engine for a period of time
absolutely wrecks the engine and forces a near total rebuild of the engine afterwards."

True, I think, especially as during the closing stages of the war, quality already had dropped
considerably, due to the haste engines and other items were produced, due to the lower qualified
personal in the industry and not to forget: Due to the softened rules for quality control. The
"production numbers wonder" wouldn't have been possible, if the original quality standards would
have been still in use !
And not only trained pilots and engineers were in short supply, but skilful mechanics and technicians,
too. So several different factors were mutually decreasing the efficiency of the Luftwaffe.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Goes to show if you give the Germans a task to do, they won't do it the right way or the wrong way, but will find a third way which is even WORSE.

The importance of the speed relationship in ASW is for the search pattern to find the submarine. This is a variable of the differences in speed and the sensor footprint of the ASW ship. Because the submarine is the pursued it has the initiative to decide in which direction to run. If the submarine is faster it will increase the area needed to be searched by the ASW ship to find it. It’s still a good business to be a mathematician developing search patterns for ASW ships.

The ASW ships of the 1950s versus the Soviet submarines of the 1950s may have had a similar speed relationship to potential WW2 Type XXI ASW however they are not a fair comparison. Because they had a much better sensor footprint than their WW2 counterparts.

The Type XXI is not lethal because it can outrun ASW torpedos but because it can ‘outrun’ the search patterns of WW2 ASW escorts. While the laws of probability are such that some Type XXIs would be caught, prosecuted and likely destroyed it would be back to early war ratios of success. The larger balance of penetrating Type XXIs would get inside the ASW defences and destroy convoys.

As to the poor build quality of the Type XXI this is not hugely significant because the Germans would have been happy with one patrol per boat. They weren’t building to last but rather to get into the ocean, bypass the Allies ASW defences and fire two salvos of torpedos. If they could do that 100 times they could sink or damage 10,000,000 tonnes of GRT. If they could do that in a year they would achieve more than the army and air force in stopping the allied offensives against Germany.

Which is what the Type XXI is all about, changing the exchange rates of ASW versus submarine in the later part of the war. Which wasn’t itself about achieving the collapse of the British economy but a severe delay in the allied offensive capability.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Abraham,

The Germans most certainly would not have been happy with one patrol per boat! Given the dire state of the German economy the last thing they need was to be building submarines that could only last one patrol! The poor build quality would have hampered performance, the impressive speed figures were only in top notch boats fresh in the water. Furthermore there are reports that the propulsion arrangement was positively dangerous.

The sonar issue is also not a massive one, most of the sonars deployed in the early 50s were the result of work done in 1944/45 and then stalled, just like the ASW torpedos.

The reality is that the Allies were not so much surprised by the Tye 21s abilities but by the fact it took the Germans so long to come up with something that good. Most of the earlier German boats were just WW1 versions with some minor improvements like thicker steel and better engines.

 

[mz]

This is interesting, both the subs and the aircraft discussion. Can you tell more about the submarine advances Sealordlawrence?

The B-36 first flew in 1946. I wonder...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The Germans most certainly would not have been happy with one patrol per boat! Given the dire state of the German economy the last thing they need was to be building submarines that could only last one patrol!

Because of the heavy mining and port bombing campaigns the Germans were happy just to get a submarine into a patrol. Everything else was gold. If the Germans expected a big return from each boat then why did they order 1,500 of them… In late ’44, ’45 the Germans biggest enemy was attrition not quality.

The sonar issue is also not a massive one, most of the sonars deployed in the early 50s were the result of work done in 1944/45 and then stalled, just like the ASW torpedos.

Not quite. The sonars of the mid-late 50s were huge improvements on those of the mid 40s.

The reality is that the Allies were not so much surprised by the Tye 21s abilities but by the fact it took the Germans so long to come up with something that good. Most of the earlier German boats were just WW1 versions with some minor improvements like thicker steel and better engines.

This statement beggars belief in light of the huge commitments made by the allies to counter the Type XXI. Also the previous German submarine tech/design was en par with that of the allies. Why would the rest of the world assumed that Germany was going to make a submarine tech/design breakthrough when they themselves had not?

The Type XXI and similar were major breakthroughs in submarine design and technology. The proof is in results. While only a handful of Type XXIII and XXI patrols were carried out none were intercepted by ASW units despite huge capability and all carried out successful attacks (though in the later case, post ceasefire so a non-lethal attack).

 

[JFC Fuller]

Why did the German's not order 15,000?- Because they had a sense of economic reality, the Type XXI programme had already put the Army in second position for steel!!! The Germans were never building large submarines for just one patrol and it really is ludicrous to suggest they were.

The sonars of the 50s were improvements, but not dramatic ones. Allied ASW development work was effectively frozen in mid 1945 with a lot of development projects simply put on hold. The allies were well aware of Type 21 and were expecting a major offensive using them to start in March 1945 as early as December 44 and consequently preparations were well under way. In September 1944 the allies had intelligence alluding to the types capabilities. The RN Submarine Seraph was rebuilt to act as an ASDIC target for trials about how to target Type XXI's. The Allied scientific community came to the conclusion that the type only complicated the existing conditions and did not 'present any radical new implications' in the words of Liuetenant Commander D.R. Mitchell who was in charge of the Seraph trials.

The statement does not beggar belief, the allies had little reason to develop highly advanced submarines as they faced nowhere near the same ASW threat (US boats in the Pacific effectively wiped out both the Japanese Navy and Mercheant Marine with relative ease). The streamlining was nothing new and had been played with by both the Japanese and the British prior to WW2 (with the Japanese building their own fast submarines, based on a pre-war prototype, in 1945 and the British having pursued the type in 1918) and the allies were well aware that the Germans would be able to produce much better boats. Its use was not revolutionary but a product of the improved propulsion power which enabled a refocus towards sub-surface operations.

The proof is certainly not in the results. The new boats made only a handful of ineffectual cruises. The only result that would provided proof is the one that alluded Axis submarines in both world wars, and that is wresting naval supremacy from the Allies. Indeed contrary to the myth a number of these boats were lost to both aircraft and mines before we even get to the vessels damaged by bombing whilst under construction.

 

[mz]

As an aside, getting back to the original topic,
how do the
-Me-262, He-162
-Meteor, Vampire
-P-80 (what else, Phantom for the navy?)

Compare?

What about bombers?

The Russians didn't have jet technology yet during the war, even the Mig-9 only flew after the war. And the Japanese had only little?

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

On the subject of jet bombers:

UK could have developed the Gloster P109 or the "Gloster Bomber", which really was a larger Meteor with four jets and a nose made by lots of Plexiglas. I'll see if I can get links.

Edit: Here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2025.0/highlight,gloster+bomber.html

http://www.screenworx.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Stuart/Portfolio/Pages/Aviation_Art.html#12

http://www.screenworx.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Stuart/Portfolio/Pages/Aviation_Art.html

(You'll have to play slideshow or click on the image or the arrows until you get to the right aircraft.)

Gloster P109 Bomber:
http://picasaweb.google.com/screenworx/AviationArt?feat=directlink#5404307364764960962

Gloster Jet Bomber:
http://picasaweb.google.com/screenworx/AviationArt?feat=directlink#5404307358124393730

All planes on the website:
http://picasaweb.google.com/screenworx/AviationArt?feat=directlink#

Luftwaffe had Arado Ar 234, and fighter-bomber versions of Messerschmitt Me 262, as late (or early) as 1944-45.

 

[red admiral]

On the subject of jet bombers:
UK could have developed the Gloster P109 or the "Gloster Bomber", which really was a larger Meteor with four jets and a nose made by lots of Plexiglas. I'll see if I can get links.

The EE Canberra was designed in 1945 with the prototypes of the final design being ordered in September 45. This seems more likely than the Gloster bombers as they were fairly full with work on the Meteor. It'll take some time to get the RR Avon working nicely, but the second prototype Canberra mounted Nenes as a backup option - maybe initial production with those instead.

The initial work for the dH Venom was also done in 1945, the dH 107 being a simpler build than the Venom. From memory it was just incorporating the thin wing and not the Ghost engine.

 

[Jemiba]

"The Germans were never building large submarines for just one patrol"

That's principally right, I think and they weren't building fighters just for one
mission. Even the Bachem Natter had been designed to be picked up and
maybe reassembled, at least the most worthwhile parts. But there was
a sense of pragmatism during the last years of the war and the fact, that most
of the military hardware didn't survive many missions on the one hand and the
need to save resources on the other hand led to some changes in production
(today we would call it "slimming down", I think : ) that resulted in a much
shorter lifetime, than products from pre-war times. Aircraft often had no internal
anti-corrosion coating and structures were designed for less flight hours.
Don't know, if this was true for ships and submarines, too, but it seems probable
to me.

 

[topspeed3]

Newt Gingrich co-wrote the book "1946," but the plot was unlike what you've described. In this case, Hitler got in a plane wreck a day or two before Dec 7, '41 and was knocked out of action for a few weeks, so when the Japanese declare war on the US, the Germans *don't.* When Hitler regains power, he maintains neutrality, and thus the US winds up devoting its efforts towards defeating Japan. By the end of the novel the Germans raid the Oak Ridge, TN, parts of the Manhattan Project, and start losing soldiers to a sherrif visiting from Kentucky...a sheriff named Alvin York.

My god do people really think the world works in such simple ways? Even if Germany never declared war on the USA after Peal Harbour the US still would have pursued a Germany first campaign. America was already fighting an undeclared war against Germany anyway. How are the Germans going to sneak soldiers into a fully mobilised USA anyway! And Former Sgt. York was actually a Colonel regiment commander in the Tennessee State Guard during WW2…

I have only seen the movie "1941"...when was 1946 published ?

 

[pathology_doc]

I suspect that one reaction to the type XXI et seq. as 1945 drags hypothetically on into 1946 would have been the (extreme) acceleration of development of the ASW helicopter. It's not as if the Allies were short on reliable and powerful aero engine designs; and faced with the need for a vehicle that could lift two men and a pair of depth charges or a homing torpedo, I'm sure they could have thrown together some sort of useful lash-up. (Not sure whether any sort of dipping sonar would have been possible.) WW2 destroyers were too small to take one, of course, but an escort carrier (even a merchantman-derived one) would be just perfect.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Perhaps a more realistic method of quieting u-boats?

German submarine U-480 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[riggerrob]

Returning to the O”’s question ...... I have speculated a bit on RCAF ‘46 where the USA remains nominally neutral. Hitler ignores Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad while telling his generals to concentrate on blocking the Volga River and securing oil supplies in the Caucasus Mountains.
During the 1930s, Canadian Pubic Works programs build docks, airfields, roads, etc all of which are ready for the dawn of the British Comminwealth Air Training Plan.
Dispairing of receiving British plans and rolling on time, Canadian industry runs to secondary sources. For example, when deHavilland of Britain is slow in supplying Tiger Moths, the RCAF contracts to build Miles Magisters instead. This contract eventually leads to building Miles M.20 naval fighters.
DHC eventually gets their act together to build Mosquitos and is building Vampires by 1946.
Fairchild of Canada de-bugs the Super 71 before starting to build hundreds of PT-19 trainers. Fairchild also subcontracts to build parts for Grumman.
Banned from selling directly to combatants, Grumman renews contracts with Canadian Car and Foundry to build Wild cats, Avengers, Bearcats, Tigercats, etc. CCF is far to busy to bid on the (disastrous in OTL) Helldiver contract.

 

[Aubi]

About 1946: It's actually a fun read, mostly thanks to William Forstchen who co-wrote it. But one of the most egregious mistakes there completely ruins the ending: they think that P-82 is just two Mustangs glued together. Aforementioned emergency fighter was P-82 with Allisons and a jet booster. They had few P-82, so they wanted to rework mothballed Mustangs (all used Allisons, because they never bought licence for Merlin). And that is what they wanted to use against the "Gothas" (Ho 229).

 

[riggerrob]

OTL P-82 was a pair of Mustang P-51Hs with a new centre section and extended aft fuselages. It shared hardly any parts with the most numerous P-51D Mustang variant.

 

[Dilandu]

If the Luftwaffe still be of any significant importance in 1944-1945 (which is required for Luft'46), I think RAF would adopt the "Artemis" air-to-air missile as stopgap measure.