Payen designations

[Deltafan]

I try to remember,the only one source for Pa.323 ?,can anybody help ?.

At least Air Enthusiast N°68 from March/April 1997, page 39. Article from Alain J. Pelletier, with the title : Paper darts to Delta, the designs of Roland Payen.

But there is maybe a problem/typo and a confusion between the Pa.321 AC3 and the Pa.323 AC3, as, in the article, there is no other reference to this "323" and as the "321" is mentioned before.

I need to do more research in all my files to be sure, but I don't have time now. I will give an answer as soon as I have the solution (maybe only in a few days).

 

[hesham]

My dear Deltafan,

I think the early aircraft was not a typo,but maybe was not mentioned in any source except this,also
there was anther source for Pa.323,Hydroretro site.

 

[Deltafan]

My dear Deltafan,

I think the early aircraft was not a typo,but maybe was not mentioned in any source except this,also
there was anther source for Pa.323,Hydroretro site.

OK, there are at least two sources with the Pa.323. And I did not have this source from Hydroretro. Thanks Hesham

But as said before I need to do more research in my files about the Pa.323 and I have no time for this now. I'll do a complete answer as soon as I'll can.

 

[Jemiba]

hesham is right, the "Pa.323 AC3" is mentioned by Gérard Hartmann in his article "Les réalisations de la SNCASE"
(via http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/ ) as one of the contenders for a twin engined attack aircraft.
But the Pa.321 AC3 isn't mentioned there, which definitely should have been, as it was a well-proven entry for
that contest !
I found an entry in one of the lists, compiled and edited by Ferdinand C.W. Käsman, in collaboration with Roland
Payen himself:


It should be noted, that he tagged it with a question mark, to my opinion, clearly indicating, that he wasn't sure about it
and maybe Monsieur Payen not, too.
The article on hydroretro was published in 2005, the meeting between Käsman and Payen took place in 1993, so long before
and from what I read, Monsieur Payen's memories already had faded a bit, fully understandable, regarding his age then:


(The last sentence of that note by Mr. Käsman says " .. unfortunately, Monsieur Payen himself quite often isn't sure anymore
<about those designations>" )

If Monsieur Hartmann had knowledge of this list, is unknown to me, but if not, his table of contenders was incomplete,
omitting a proven entry, replacing it with an unproven one. Not very probable, I think.

Judging the available sources, and the comments by Mr. Käsman, I rather think, the "Pa.323 AC3" is a result of a wrong memory
by Roland Payen himself.

 

[Deltafan]

hesham is right, the "Pa.323 AC3" is mentioned by Gérard Hartmann in his article "Les réalisations de la SNCASE"
(via http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/ ) as one of the contenders for a twin engined attack aircraft.
But the Pa.321 AC3 isn't mentioned there, which definitely should have been, as it was a well-proven entry for
that contest !
I found an entry in one of the lists, compiled and edited by Ferdinand C.W. Käsman, in collaboration with Roland
Payen himself:
View attachment 641468

It should be noted, that he tagged it with a question mark, to my opinion, clearly indicating, that he wasn't sure about it
and maybe Monsieur Payen not, too.
The article on hydroretro was published in 2005, the meeting between Käsman and Payen took place in 1993, so long before
and from what I read, Monsieur Payen's memories already had faded a bit, fully understandable, regarding his age then:

View attachment 641470
(The last sentence of that note by Mr. Käsman says " .. unfortunately, Monsieur Payen himself quite often isn't sure anymore
<about those designations>" )

If Monsieur Hartmann had knowledge of this list, is unknown to me, but if not, his table of contenders was incomplete,
omitting a proven entry, replacing it with an unproven one. Not very probable, I think.

Judging the available sources, and the comments by Mr. Käsman, I rather think, the "Pa.323 AC3" is a result of a wrong memory
by Roland Payen himself.

I still haven't had time to look in my files on Payen planes, but yes

-The meeting between Käsman and Payen took place in 1993
-The Payen's planes list of Pierre Gaillard is published in Le trait d'union n°159 in 1995 with the Payen Pa.321 AC3, but without the Payen Pa.323 AC3 and Gaillard said, as Käsman, that the files of Mr. Payen, before the list, were a "mess".
-The article of Alain Pelletier is published in 1997
-The article of Hydroretro is published in 2005.

If Hydroretro uses Käsman (question mark concerning the 323) or/and Pelletier (possible confusion between 321 and 323) as reference/s the mistake concerning the 323 cannot be excluded.

 

[hesham]

OK my dears Jemiba and Deltafan,

I convince now.