Payen designations

Jemiba

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If we don't want to wait for at least another seven years ... we just have to work it out on our own !

So Deltafan and me worked out a list, that probably isn’t complete, but contains
all designations,we could find.
The designs designated “SP. xxx” were worked out in collaboration with Robert
Sauvage, so aren’t “pure” Payen designs, as are the AP designs, as the “A”
stands for Emile Aubrun. What's still puzzling, are the different designations,
“Pa” and “P”, as we can’t see any relation between the numbers, although they
seem to be used during the same period. Maybe the P-designated designs were
more or less concepts, and only the Pa’s more detailed projecst ?
Or is it just an error in the sources ? Maybe there wasn’t an “official” designation
at all ? Some sources just use, for example the designation “Payen 100”, without
any short form.
Apart from several sources like Cunys "Les Avions Des Combat",
and sites like http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2 and http://museedelta.free.fr ,
our special thanks to Tophe, Hesham and boxkite .



SP.190 : 1932, design for a single engined, light transport/medevac
for 2 crew, 6 stretchers
SP.23 O : ? , wind tunnel model only
SP.240 : 1931, design for a single engined, light transport/medevac
for 1 crew, 1 stretcher
SP-25 : design for the Coupe Deutsch 1933, two engines combined in "I" form (?)
SP-26 : design derivative of the SP-25, one engine, become the Pa-100
SP.260 :1933, first project for a delta canard, retractable landing gear
SP.261 :1933, derived from the SP.260, with fixed gear
BP.1 : 1932, design for a two seats flying wing with one (40 or 75hp) pusher prop
NRP.260 : early designation of the Pa-100R
P.2 : 1933, design for a one seat light aircraft, high trapezoid wing, single engine
(20 hp), built from wood
Pa.100 :1933, delta canard, retractable single wheel, designed for a
Régnier engine
Pa.100R : design developed from the Pa-101, with two Melot ramjet engines
Pa.101 :1934, Pa.100 with a G & R 7KD Titan Major radial engine
Pa.110 : 1936 ?, follow-on project to the Pa.100
Pa.112C1:1938, twin engined fighter (contra props), based on the
Pa.100, mock-up built
AP.10 :1935, small flying wing with 25/27hp, later 40hp engine
AP.12 : , larger single engined flying wing, enclosed cockpit , side by side
seats, one 40/50hp engine
Pa.268 : 1933, first study of the later Pa-22
Pa.22/1R: 1935, design for a Pa-22 with a Melot ram jet
Pa.22 :1939, Pa.22/R1 redesigned and built with a Régnier 6B-01 engine
Pa.22 V5 : designation of the modified PA-22 prototype, first flight on
18th October 1941
Pa.22/3 : design derivative of the Pa-22 with three seats
Pa.22/4 : design derivative of the Pa-22, two seats, the 2 fins are at the tips
of the delta wing, one 220 hp engine
Pa.22/6 : design derivative ot the Pa-22 with larger canards
Pa.22/7 : 1942, design derivative of the Pa-22, with folding canards
(model built for a frenche movie - Retour de flamme - in 1942 [empty]
Pa.22D : 1948, design derivative of the Pa-22 with reversed (or inverted ?) canards
Pa.222 : design derivative of the Pa-22, two seats
Pa.225 : design for the Coupe Deutsch 1939, derivative of the Pa-22, 380/400 hp engine
Pa.240GR (grand raid) : , design derivative of the Pa-22, 315 hp engine
Pa.26 : 1946, design for flyable car/roadable aircraft
PM.30A: design developed from the Pa.22 [empty]
Pa.400 : 1938 : design submitted for Mitsubishi, shipboard fighter bomber
P.200 : 1938: design for a twin engined sports aircraft (contra props)
P.310CB:1937: design for a twin engined fighter bomber (contra props)
Pa.320P : 1936, design, 500 hp, 4 (?) engines
P.321AC:1935: design for a four engined heavy fighter/light bomber (two
nacelles with contra props)
P.323AC3: ?: design probably similar to P.321AC, which is said to have
been derived from it
Pa.330: , design for a delta canard
P.340TP:1937, design for a twin engined transport (contra props)
P.350CD:1934, design for a twin engined racing aircraft (contra props)
P.360PT:1941, design for twin fuselage, twin engined transport
Pa.361: , design for a twin engined canard with long range
Pa.430CV : 1938, design for a racing aircraft, 2 x 650 hp 14 M engines(contra props)
Pa.42/1: , designs for twin boom, twin engined transports with two 300hp engines
Pa.42/5: , designs for twin boom transport with detachable cargo hold, 3 engines
one of them driving the wheels for ground handling.
Pa.46/1 : design for "Fléchair" with Mélot jet engine
Pa.46/2-8: design for versions of the 46/1
Pa.46/13 : design for twin-engined amphibian canard
Pa.46/16 : design for 2-seat touring aircraft
Pa.46/400/410: design for 4-seat touring aircraft
Pa.47 :1950, single engined high wing sports aircraft
Pa.47/3 : , derivative of Pa-47 with tricycle landing gear
Pa.48/3 : , design for a delta wing interceptor, one 2270 kgp Nene jet engine
Pa.48/5 (K50/77) : design for a derivative of the Pa-48/3 with two seats, one piston
engine and pusher prop
Pa.48/6 (K50/78) : single seat derivative of the Pa-48/5
Pa.49 : 1952, small delta wing, jet powered experimental aircraft
Pa.49/2: (or 492 ?) single seat derivative of Pa.49
Pa.49/5: (or 495 ?) twin seat derivative of Pa.49
Pa.50B: , designfor a glider with 4 SNECMA pulsejet engines
Pa.51 : 1956, design for a single engined, high wing, tri-cycle agricultural
aircraft ("Les Ailes", 1956 ?)
Pa.56 : , Fouga-Payen design for a delta wing trainer
Pa.562 : , derivative of the Pa-56, using 70% of the parts of the Fouga-Magister
Pa.57 : , design for a flying wing with two seats, two engines and two fins
Pa.59 : 1954, design for a delta wing tail sitter interceptor
Pa.60 : 1963 , delta wing, 3 (?)-seat touring aircraft, fixed landing gear, 105hp
Hirth engine
Pa.61B : , modified Pa.60,
Pa.61F : 1963, delta wing, 3 (?)-seat touring aircraft, fixed landing gear, 180hp
Lycoming engine, a very similar aircraft was offered for the german market
as "Pa.81"
Pa.61 G : , design derivative of the Pa.61 F with retractable canards
Pa.61 H : , design derivative of the Pa.61 F and G with two 160 kp side by side jet engines
Pa.61O : , design for a 4 seats derivative of the Pa.61, one 200 hp engine
Pa.62 : , design probably similar to Pa.61 with ducted prop
Pa.64 :1955 , flying saucer, powered by one Marboré engine (sometimes designated
as Pa.61)
Pa.65 : , design for flyable car/roadable aircraft, straight wing, twin
boom layout .Maybe other designation Pa.26 ?
Pa.71 : , design for a delta wing racing aircraft with 100hp Continental
engine
Pa.120 : 1940, other designation for the AP-12 flying wing designt
Pa.140 (or K60) : , design probably similar to the Pa.141 (or K.60 B)
Pa.141: , design for a twin boom, single engined pusher prop mid wing aircraft
Pa.149: , design for a two seat derivative of the Pa.49 with two Palas jet engines
Pa.150:1943, design for a twin boom, single engined pusher prop, high wing flying boat
Pa.161 : , delta wing design with canards
Pa.171: 1992, design derivative of Pa.71 ,studied in 1992 with Pa.49 wing
and "rotax" engine
Pa.190 : , twin engined, design probably similar to the Pa-150
PAM-10 : 1959, unfinished (?) flying wing with canards with two engines and three fins.
Pa.240 H : , twin engined, design probably similar to the Pa-150
Pa.249: , design with with retractable landing gear and built in composite
Pa.349: , design for an UAV to watch over woods. Take off on a vehicle and landing
with parachute
Pa.370 : , design probably similar to the Pa-360
Pa.445 : , design probably similar to the Pa-360
Pa.600: , design for a twin engined, twin boom, high wing transport aircraft
 

hesham

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My dear Jemiba,

for the Pa.321 it was three seat twin engined fighter submitted to 1934C3 program,
and Pa.323 was developed from Pa.321 with some improvments to 1937C3 program.
 

Deltafan

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Thanks Hesham ! :)

Maybe the first edit Jemiba (and certainly not the last) but that's why we opened this topic too ;D

On his website http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/Payen2.htm

dannysoar said :

(...)
The P.321
I love this one. Imagine getting strafed by it. . It was designed in response to the Armee de l'Air's October 1934 call for a light multiplace defense fighter . It was armed with 10 machine guns and 12 light bombs. The pilot's visibility must have been truly awful. It was beat out for the contract by the Hanriot H.220 and the Potez 63.
I'm working on a NoCal (a quickie class of profile rubber free flight) of this one
(...)
Payen P.310 CB
Much like the 321 AC, Roland submitted this in response to a call for a two place 520K/h fighter bomber. I read that is was derived from 323AC3, about which I know nothing, and it was beat out by the "unorthodox SNCASE Se.100", about which I would like to know more.
(...)
I think that with 10 machine guns and 12 light bombs the P.321AC can be designed heavy fighter / light bomber

For the drawing of the P.321AC, dannysoar scripts :
Payen P.321AC
Air cruiser
Four engines (two Payen twins)
three seats heavy fighter
1935
Well... four or two is a question of self opinion... In french I say : "quatre moteurs couplés deux par deux"
The problem is : "two Payen twins" ? ???
In "Die schnellsten Propellerflugzeuge der Welt" Käsmann says for the Pa.320P : 4 X 500 HP (Renault/Baudot engines).
Maybe the engines of the P.321AC are the same ?

For the 1934C3 program and 1937C3 program it can be added on the list. There is a lot to add to the list...
 

Deltafan

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Sorry, I cannot read pdf-files with my new computer (and I don't know why...) :'(

I don't speak a good english too... :'(


Have you information about a Pa-41 Hesham ? What is your source ?
 

Jemiba

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??? ??? ???

Attention, mentioned in the musee delta site are the SP. 260/261,
not Pa. ...
And we don't know the Pa.41, too ... ;D Any infos ??
 

Maveric

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Hi,

has nobody technical data for the projects P.200 (1938) and Pa.340TP (1937)?

Maveric
 

Deltafan

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I found this old post of hesham here : http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=441.msg3163

Anther projects from Payen I didn't hear about it;
Payen Pa-41,Pa-47,Pa-51,Pa-60 and Pa-600.

Dear hesham what is/are your source/s about this Pa-41 ?
 

hesham

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Sorry dear Deltafan,

I don't know any informations about Pa.41,I just saw it in a site just name.
 

Antonio

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Deltafan,

If you can read pdf files, you can download acrobat reader here

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

Regards,

Antonio
 

hesham

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Hi,

also SP.230 was racer aircraft,but I think it was never built.
 

Deltafan

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Caution

With Jemiba we found one SP.230 and one SP.23, but the two were the same wind model tunnel. In Le fana de l'aviation N°266, (january 1991, p.16, ten pages article of Francis Nicole) the author named this wind model tunnel : SP.23 O (O for Oscar)

If you found the SP.230 here http://museedelta.free.fr/payen/conf_JPC_eng.pdf
it's not a racer but the wind model tunnel
 

Deltafan

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pometablava said:
Deltafan,
If you can read pdf files, you can download acrobat reader here
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
Regards,
Antonio
Thanks pometablava, my model 6 was outdated. With the 8 on your link it's good, I can read the pdf :)
 

lark

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Payen Pa.65 was a hydroplane 'Otari' II project of 1959
The twinboom flying car was the Pa.G5 - 'G' flying car for Guérin - completed for 60%
from : Le Trait D'Union 159
 

Deltafan

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Thanks lark ! :)

Do you know a relation between the Pa.G5 and a Pa.26 from 1946 (Album du fanatique de l'aviation number 7, january 1970, Robert J. Roux, page 4) ?
 

lark

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The Pa.26G was a single seater with circular wing together with Gyral
completed for 80% in 1944-45.
Variants from Pa26/2 to 26/4
I found no Pa.26 info...
 

Deltafan

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Thanks once more again lark :)


There were some mistakes in the articles of Robert J. Roux in L'album du fanatique de l'aviation number 5 (for exemple : there is a big doubt about the last fin of the Pa-22...), 6 and 7. Maybe the Pa-26 was a mistake too...

What is Gyral ? ???

What are your sources about Pa-65, Pa-26G / Pa-26/2 / Pa-26/4 ? :)
 

lark

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You're welcome Deltafan ,

The finshape of the Pa-22 changed several times.At least twice during the German occupation
of France.The Pa-22 give way to a sub-serie of 7 variants. Pa-22/1 to 7.
One source mentioned the Pa-22/7 as the Pa-22S- 'S' for Special.
This design had swing -wing foreplanes(the front wing could be swing back.
Sources are:
Le Fana ,Pilote Prive,Air Enthusiast,Flying Review,Le Trait d'Union , a few books
from the Docavia series , correspondence with enthusiasts,Les Ailes Volantes and a few loose pages from mag's of which I lost the name over the years... etc.
Gyral must be Gayral. My mistake..sorry.
I still have no trail of the Pa-26 but there must be something somewhere..
 

Jemiba

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It's not really the correct thread, nevertheless, here are to different
configurations of the Pa.22 :
(from FlugRevue July 1995)
 

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Deltafan

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I made a mistake about the "doubtful" last finshape of the Pa-22 ;D

It's not in L'album du fanatique de l'aviation number 5 (november 1969), but in Le fana de l'aviation number 266 (january 1991) :-\

We can see the (german) article of Flug Revue here (16/09/05 20H58) :

http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4605&highlight=&sid=3055f7a1f849ea159c26a5ff45ff0b2c

This german article is shorter than the article of Fana 266 but the infos about the Pa-22 are very similar (with some precisions in the Flug Revue article). Is there certainty about the last finshape in the drawing that Jemiba gives from Flug Revue ? I always thought that it was a little "exaggeration" or a memory's mistake of M. Payen, because there is no photo of this "last" finshape :eek:


About the Pa-22 models we have (with our list at the beginning of this topic) :

Pa.22/1R: 1935, design for a Pa-22 with a Melot ram jet
Pa.22 or Pa-22/2 : 1939, Pa.22/R1 redesigned and built with a Régnier 6B-01 engine.
Pa.22/3 : design derivative of the Pa-22 with three seats
Pa.22/4 : design derivative of the Pa-22, two seats, the 2 fins are at the tips of the delta wing, one 220 hp engine
Pa.22/6 : design derivative ot the Pa-22 with larger canards
Pa.22/7 : 1942, design derivative of the Pa-22, with folding canards
(model built for a frenche movie - Retour de flamme - in 1942

There is no Pa-22/5 in our list. Is it possible that one of this two planes may be the 22/5 :
Pa.22 V5 : designation of the modified PA-22 prototype, first flight on 18th October 1941
Pa.225 : design for the Coupe Deutsch 1939, derivative of the Pa-22, 380/400 hp engine

For the Pa-22/7 (or "S") : was it more than a model for the movie Retour de flamme ?

I know... I have a lot of questions... :-[
 

lark

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The Pa.22V5 is in fact the Pa.22/5...
modification of the Pa.22/2 with separated cockpit.

source: PILOT PPRIVE No.88 May 1981.
Le Trait D'Union No.159
 

Deltafan

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Thanks lark for the Payen's fans ;)

I ordered and got today Les cahiers du RSA n°226 (march-april 1999), with a Pierre Gaillard's article about the Payen's planes : nothing new for the designations...
 

lark

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That is a source I do not know Deltafan...
Is there any information about the Pa-562 in it.
This should be a Payen-Fouga project for a deltawinged Fouga Magister (+-1954)

p.s. Are you the one who is looking for a model of the Pa 22/7 or Pa22S ?
 

Deltafan

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I found this source here : http://www.rsafrance.com/cahiers/cahiers_1999.htm
There is nothing about the Pa-562 in it... :(
I ordered it (for free ! :eek:) here : http://www.rsafrance.com/ I called the phone number for this order(it's possible to join the phone number only tuesday in the morning)


About the Pa-562 : i have a few informations in L'album du fanatique de l'aviation number 6 page 5 (december 1969) and a little more in Le fana de l'aviation number 274 page 51 (september 1992) but no drawing (i'll try to translate a mixing of the two articles...)


And yes, i am looking for a model (or a photo or a drawing) of the Pa-22/7 or Pa-22S. The 1/1 model was used for the french movie Retour de flamme (1942). :)
 

Deltafan

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Well :)

L'album du fanatique de l'aviation number 6, december 1969, page 5, Robert J. Roux :
(...) Une autre tentative fut lancée en 1955 lorsque Payen passa un accord avec M. Challe alors président de Fouga aviation. Il s'agissait cette fois de créer un biplace d'entraînement militaire propulsé par deux réacteurs "Marboré" et représentant un mélange de Fléchair et de "Magister". On avait par exemple conservé l'avant du fuselage et l'ensemble des deux postes de pilotage du CM-170. Cet appareil plus rapide que le "Magister" aurait, paraît-il complété ce dernier dans la progression de la formation militaire. Dans l'optique de cette étude des vols d'information furent effectués par les techniciens de Fouga sur le Pa-49. Malheureusement Fouga connut la faillite quelques mois après et à la prise de contrôle de la société (...) par Potez, il ne fut plus question de combiné Fouga-Payen.
(...)
Le fana de l'aviation number 274, september 1992, page 51, Francis Nicole :
(...)
Lors de ce salon (Le Bourget 1955), Adolph Galland, alors conseiller technique à l'OTAN pour l'aviation d'entraînement à la chasse, rencontre Roland Payen. Challe président de Fouga vient de lui apprendre la décision de son conseil d'administration prise en faveur du Pa-56, un projet Fouga-Payen de delta d'entraînement de construction métallique. Ce projet évoluera en Pa-562, réalisable avec 70% des éléments du "Magister" : poste de pilotage, réacteurs. Le 12 janvier 1956, un pilote de Fouga essaie le "Katy". L'avenir s'annonce heureux. Mais cette année-là, Fouga rencontre des difficultés. Le projet Pa-562 biplace, biréacteur delta d'entraînement sera hélas abandonné.
(...)
(try for a little) translation :
In mid-1955, there are an official agreement between the Fouga society and Roland Payen about the Fouga-Payen project of a mixing between the CM-170 Fouga "Magister" and a Payen's Fléchair delta wing : the Pa-56. This military training metal plane with two seats, two jet engines and a delta wing evolved in the delta winged Pa-562 with 70% of "Magister's" components : the front of the fuselage, the two seats cockpit and the two "Marboré" jet engines. Faster than the "Magister", the Pa-562 was foreseen to complement the "Magister" in the military training. Within this framework, one (or several) pilot(s) of Fouga tested the Pa-49 in 1956. Unfortunately the Fouga society went bankrupt some months later. Potez, the new owner of Fouga, abandoned the project.

Self opinion : the misfortune was with Payen once more again... :(
 

lark

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Interesting.Thanks a lot.
The great man deserved better indeed...
 

Tophe

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For Deltafan, reduced from my book "Forked Ghosts – supplement Nr 1" ( http://www.la-plume-du-temps.fr/2-19.htm ):
 

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Jemiba

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That makes me again thinking about one of the Payen patents, were an illustration
shows an aircraft, which I always thought is a Noratlas. But maybe he used the
Pa.600 as a pattern ? Ok, the fins look too much "Noratlas like", I think ...
 

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Deltafan

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Great thanks for the drawings Tophe ! :)


For the Jemiba : I think too that it's more a Noratlas ;)
 

dan_inbox

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Jens,
Any idea what the arms are for?
 

Tophe

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Could that be a fire bomber? (taking water from a lake without landing/long-filling while being not a flying boat)
 

dan_inbox

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Actually, people, this is the solution to end forever the world's agricultural problems:
The Tractoratlas will be the fastest plough in the world!

This is a conversion built by Israel Aircraft Industries, which got the design from the Highest Authorities themselves:
An engineer at IAI, master of the ancient arts of Kabbalah and Gmetria, finally was able to decipher the plans which were hidden in the Scriptures. He said: Just read Isaiah 2:4 with the right understanding of gmtria, and the plans have been right there all the time! See:

ד וְשָׁפַט בֵּין הַגּוֹיִם, וְהוֹכִיחַ לְעַמִּים רַבִּים; וְכִתְּתוּ חַרְבוֹתָם לְאִתִּים, וַחֲנִיתוֹתֵיהֶם לְמַזְמֵרוֹת--לֹא-יִשָּׂא גוֹי אֶל-גּוֹי חֶרֶב, וְלֹא-יִלְמְדוּ עוֹד מִלְחָמָה.

IAI's plans are to produce the Tractoratlas in a joint venture set up with the UN's Food and Agricultural Organization and Massey-Ferguson.

For those of us less schooled in gmetria, Isaiah 2:4 reads: "And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war."

Ahem...
 

Jemiba

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... and peace to everyone, all over the world !
You're quite, dan_inbox, these probably were the religiously inspired ideas
of Monsieur Payen behind this patent. But as the world during the '60s
wasn't prepared for world wide peace, he had to hide his ideas behind
words, that say, what Tophe told us ! ;)
 

Deltafan

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Hi everybody ! ;D

Some news from Air enthusiast (march 1997) :

RAP 40 : 1931, design for a touring aircraft with tandem wings and one 30 hp Anzani engine
SP.220 : 1932, design for a light figther
P.330H : 1938, design for an amphibian plane
Pa.152C Visair 1 : 1984, ultra light plane with one 50 hp Citroën engine http://museedelta.free.fr/visair.htm


If Somebody knows where it's possible to find in Europe-shops (because the last time, 1998/99) that i ordered books in the US, they came six months later, maybe it was the normal time, maybe it was my bad english to understand the postal methods...) :
-the french "Le trait d'union" of january 1995 (number 159 ?)
-the american "Skyways" of april 1992 (number 22) and july 1992 (number 23)

It would be very helpful :)
 

Jemiba

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There remain some other aircraft, built and, yes, designed (in a certain way)
b Roland Payen : Flying replicas ! The AE article mentiones without doubt
- a Laté-17 replica, made from a Noorduyn Norseman
- two replicas of Breguet XIV (basis not mentioned)
and probabyl as flying replicas, too (although not mentioned explicitely)
- two Albatros, made from DH.82s
- two Salmson 2A2 (from Caudron C.270)

About the other mentioned types, like two Caudron G.3, a Wright biplane,
or a Lilienthal glider, I'm still not sure, if and which of them were flyable,
or just static, as the replica of his own Pa.100 racer
 

lark

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and the construction of an Airspeed 'Horsa' glider in 1962 for a movie
with also in '62 the recontruction of a Waco CG-4A for museum use...
 

Jemiba

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"and the construction of an Airspeed 'Horsa' glider in 1962 for a movie"
yes, but this was a static replica, wasn't it ? It was for the D-Day film
"The longest Day" with John Wayne ( ANYBODY REMEMBERS JOHN WAYNE ? ;D )
I saw the film, but all I rember in regards to htat Horsa are ground scenes.
But if it was flyable, its of course worth adding to the list !
 

Maveric

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Hi all,

found this pic in L+K 1979: a Roland Payen Replica. My question: Is this the K.121 (Pa.76/Nieuport) from 1970?
 

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Text says that the Payen built this plane as the "universal looking" platform for the films and in flight photos about the world war 1 and he named it "Bastard".
 

Deltafan

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Sorry Maveric, i come late once more again...

It's the one seat Pa.25B1 / K132 from 1977 "Batard de Neyap" :

N.E.Y.A.P. = P.A.Y.E.N.

The post of Matej explains its purpose : Batard = bastard/mixing/crossing (of planes of this time).


Thanks for the photo and the translation :)
 
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