Piper designations and unknown aircraft

hesham

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Hi all,

Piper PA-9 :high wing military liaison aircraft,project only.
Piper PA-10 :design similar to Thrope Skyscooter,project only.
Piper PA-37 :projected pressurized Twin Comanche,not built.
Lo Presti-Piper Swiftfury :was developed from Globe Swift,it had a new
Flush-riveted wing skins, a sliding cockpit canopy and a 425
hp Allison 250 turboprop engine.
Piper Twin Stinson :was developed from Stinson design as twin engined
four seat low wing twin of tube/fabric construction
with twin tail fins,fixed tricycle u/c and two 125 hp
Lycoming O-290-D engines.
 

Tophe

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hesham said:
Piper Twin Stinson :was developed fron Stinson design as twin engined
four seat low wing twin of tube/fabric construction
with twin tail fins
I would like to know more about this one, please... Is this a twin-fuselage like the Wagner Twin-Cub? or else a simple Stinson with "just" 2 engines and 2 fins (but a single fuselage)?
;D
 

hesham

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Dear Tophe,

it was a simple Stinson fitted with two engines.also see:
www.aerofiles.com/pip-twinstin.jpg
 

Maveric

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Hi all,

the Piper Aircraft Corporation build a long series of light aircraft, but in this list are some gaps. Do you know anything about the Piper P.A.7 and 8; P.A.13; P.A.26 and 27; P.A.37; P.A.39; P.A.41; P.A.43;P.A.45...47...49...?
Please if you have with pics, drawing and technical data.

Servus Maveric ;)
 

frank

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the PA-39 was a development of the PA-30 Twin Commanche.
 

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You might look for copies of 'Standard Catalog of Piper Single Engined Aircraft', and 'Standard Catalog of Piper Twin Engined Aircraft'
 

jstar

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Did you try these people: http://www.pipermuseum.com/links.aspx
 

jstar

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And, of course:
Piper Aircraft by Roger Peperell
[190] $124.99



The definitive historical guide to Piper aircraft.

Roger Peperell, Official Historian of the New Piper Aircraft Corporation, brings you a fully revised edition of Piper Aircraft: The Development and History of Piper Designs.

Piper Aircraft is an accumulation of four decades of investigation and interviews. It is the most detailed source covering the development and history of one of the most well known aircraft manufacturers in the world.

The book examines prototypes, production histories, specification details and performance data of Piper’s aircraft from its forerunners, the Chummy and Taylor Cub, to the current, state-of-the-art line-up. Also featured are aircraft that were designed but never built, and aircraft considered for acquisition.

Piper Aircraft features 640 color pages 1,700 illustrations including engines, panels, interiors, adverts, logos, newspaper cuttings, three-view drawings and artist impressions.

Published by Air Britain (Historians) Ltd.
 

hesham

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Hi Maveric,

for Piper aircraft,please see www.aerofiles.com
 

Just call me Ray

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frank said:
the PA-39 was a development of the PA-30 Twin Commanche.

Specifically it is nothing more than a PA-30 TwinCo with counter-rotating propellers (that is, each propeller turns in a different direction) for enhanced engine-out performance. It may sound simple but try running your car's engine backwards - the -39 requires mirrored camshafts, piston domes etc. Though it did enter series production (you might be able to find one or two at your local flight line) it was soon superseded by the Seneca and Seminole (both of which, starting from the Seneca III and from the first model Seminole, counter-rotating props)


[qoute]Piper P.A.7 and 8; P.A.13; P.A.26 and 27; P.A.37; P.A.39; P.A.41; P.A.43;P.A.45...47...49...?[/quote]

Someone already mentioned the Skycycle (built from a surplus F4U droptank, BTW - yes, really!). The PA-7 Sky Coupe was an experimental four-seat light aircraft for the post-war market:

piper_pa-7.jpg


Never saw production, BTW

The Piper PA-26 appears to be an alternate designation for the PA-28-161 Warrior, I'm not sure on that. The PA-27 likewise seems to be a variant of the PA-23 Aztec, possibly with counter-rotating props like the -39 (I do distinctly remember there being quite a few counter-rotating Aztecs around).

The PA-41 is the Cheyenne II turboprop, a fairly common aircraft actually.

The others I'm not familiar with. Keep in mind that Piper did a few experimental trainer bids here and there, and I'm betting they fill in the missing numbers. It also appears that the PA-13 designation was deliberately skipped (hey, we pilots are pretty superstitious you know :p )
 

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Actually, the deal with the PA-39 is pretty simple. It was just an engine & prop change. After the PA-39 came out, PA-30 owners could get the left hand rotation engine & prop conversion kit & install it in place of the right engine.


Just call me Ray said:
frank said:
the PA-39 was a development of the PA-30 Twin Commanche.

Specifically it is nothing more than a PA-30 TwinCo with counter-rotating propellers (that is, each propeller turns in a different direction) for enhanced engine-out performance. It may sound simple but try running your car's engine backwards - the -39 requires mirrored camshafts, piston domes etc. Though it did enter series production (you might be able to find one or two at your local flight line) it was soon superseded by the Seneca and Seminole (both of which, starting from the Seneca III and from the first model Seminole, counter-rotating props)


[qoute]Piper P.A.7 and 8; P.A.13; P.A.26 and 27; P.A.37; P.A.39; P.A.41; P.A.43;P.A.45...47...49...?

Someone already mentioned the Skycycle (built from a surplus F4U droptank, BTW - yes, really!). The PA-7 Sky Coupe was an experimental four-seat light aircraft for the post-war market:

piper_pa-7.jpg


Never saw production, BTW

The Piper PA-26 appears to be an alternate designation for the PA-28-161 Warrior, I'm not sure on that. The PA-27 likewise seems to be a variant of the PA-23 Aztec, possibly with counter-rotating props like the -39 (I do distinctly remember there being quite a few counter-rotating Aztecs around).

The PA-41 is the Cheyenne II turboprop, a fairly common aircraft actually.

The others I'm not familiar with. Keep in mind that Piper did a few experimental trainer bids here and there, and I'm betting they fill in the missing numbers. It also appears that the PA-13 designation was deliberately skipped (hey, we pilots are pretty superstitious you know :p )
[/quote]
 

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frank said:
Actually, the deal with the PA-39 is pretty simple. It was just an engine & prop change.

That's true, but my point being...well, any A&P will tell you that an engine swap isn't exactly simple :p

The engine is the same, but there are significant changes to it to essentially make it run backwards. Like I said, mirrored camshafts and piston domes to make it go in the opposite direction etc. There might even be basic block changes. What really makes it not so simple is the cost of doing all this stuff (remember, airplane parts are significantly more expensive than automotive parts) which is why it took so long for engine manufacturers to even be bothered doing it.
 

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Yes, AS an A & P, an engine swap isn't necessarily simple, but I think you're making a point of something different. The engine is built differently, that's why it's designated an LIO-320-something rather than an IO-320. Otherwise, as I understand, since I've only done standard engines on TCs, it's still just an engine change.



Just call me Ray said:
frank said:
Actually, the deal with the PA-39 is pretty simple. It was just an engine & prop change.

That's true, but my point being...well, any A&P will tell you that an engine swap isn't exactly simple :p

The engine is the same, but there are significant changes to it to essentially make it run backwards. Like I said, mirrored camshafts and piston domes to make it go in the opposite direction etc. There might even be basic block changes. What really makes it not so simple is the cost of doing all this stuff (remember, airplane parts are significantly more expensive than automotive parts) which is why it took so long for engine manufacturers to even be bothered doing it.
 

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frank said:
Yes, AS an A & P, an engine swap isn't necessarily simple, but I think you're making a point of something different. The engine is built differently, that's why it's designated an LIO-320-something rather than an IO-320. Otherwise, as I understand, since I've only done standard engines on TCs, it's still just an engine change.

I wasn't trying to make a point that it's different, but yeah, you're right, I was just not communicating it clearly. It is an LIO-320, the "L" standing for left-rotating, naturally.
 

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I've never seen Aztecs (or Apaches) designated anything other than PA-23! Wonder what the changes were.



Maveric said:
...have found a P.A.27, look: http://bahacivil.fotopic.net/p37251864.html

Servus Maveric :-\
 

hesham

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Hi,

the PA-9 was a project for high wing military liaison aircraft and the
PA-10 was a project for low wing two seat aircraft,design similar to
Thorp Sky Skooter.Also the PA-37 was a pressurized version of Twin
Comanche,but not built.
Source; Airlife ; General Aviation,first edition
 

Stargazer2006

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  • A few details and corrections here:
    • PA-21 was given inhouse to the sole Baumann 250 Brigadier after it was purchased by Piper.
    • PA-26 was to be a high-powered version of the PA-24 Comanche but it wasn't built.
    • PA-27 was initially allocated to the Aztec, but then it was decided to use PA-23 sub-types instead.
    • PA-29 was the Papoose, an experimental prototype built in 1956.
    • PA-35 was the Pocono, the largest Piper built; single prototype was sold to PZL in Poland.
    • PA-37 was to be a twin-engined version of the PA-33 Pressurized Comanche prototype, but it was not built.
    • PA-41 is NOT the Cheyenne "II", that's the PA-42... It was a Pressurized Aztec prototype.
    • PA-43 was to be a piston-engined variant of the PA-42 Cheyenne, but it was not built.
    • PA-47 was recently allocated to the PiperJet.
    • PA-49, 51 to 59 were not allocated.
    • PA-60 was allocated to Ted Smith's Aerostar after being purchased by Piper.
    • No PA- number seems to have been given to the new PiperSport (= Czech Sport Aircraft SportCruiser).

    I'm preparing a complete recap on all Piper designations, so stay tuned!
 

Stargazer2006

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Though not unknown, strictly speaking, a rare model anyway: the Piper PA-30 Twin Comanche under evaluation at NASA in 1967:
 

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Stargazer2006

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Stargazer2006

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Mole said:
Woo hoo, great find on the trimotor Cherokee Six, thanks!

You're welcome! Actually, PA-30 was a Twin Comanche... (should have been "Tri-Comanche" here, but anyway... ;D )
 

Stargazer2006

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A complete list of Piper basic designations (no sub-variants at this stage):

Part I

J-2 New Cub, Cub — Single-engined high-wing cabin monoplane, a development of the earlier Taylor/Jamoneau H-2 Cub design (1935).
J-3 Cub — Development of the J-3 also used by the military in the O-59 Patrol and L-4/TG-8/NE Grasshopper variants (1938).
J-4 Cub Coupe — Four-seat derivative of J-3, some used by the military as the Grasshopper (1939).
J-5 Cub Cruiser — More powerful version also used by the military as the C-83/L-4F/HE Grasshopper and L-14 Army Cruiser variants (1940).

P-1 Cub Clipper, Clipper, Duck — Originally known as the 1937 Applegate Amphibian, which used wings and other components of the Cub (1940).
P-2 Cub — High-wing cabin monoplane with enclosed cabin, new tail, single-piece door; was to replaced the J-3 in production before the war (1940).
P-3 "Rosewing Cub" — a Cub Coupe with experimental William Rose wing with slats, slotted ailerons, flaps; also known as J-4RX [NX22941] (1939).
P-4 Cub — a four-seat development of P-2; production planned for 1942 but cancelled because of the war [NX38300] (1941).
P-5 "Cantilever Cub" — a J-3C-65 fitted with a strutless cantilever wing, also known as J-3X [NX42111] (1944?).

PT-1 Trainer, Cub PT, XPT — Experimental tandem two-seater, low-wing monoplane trainer [NX4300] (1942).
Glider Bomb, "Glomb" — Remotely-controlled unmanned bomb-carrying glider for U.S. Navy as LBP; order reduced from 100 to 35, then cancelled (1942).
PA Skycoupe — An alternate designation for the PWA-1.
PB Skycoupe — A four-seat version; never flew.
PWA-1 Skycoupe — Two seat low wing twin-boom monoplane ("PWA" stood for "Post War Aircraft"); later became PA-7 [NX4500] (1943).
PWA-6 Skysedan — A prototype built in 1945 as a four-seat development of the PT-1 trainer; redesignated as PA-6 [NX580] (1945).
PWA-8 Cub Cycle — Single seat, mid-wing single-engine monoplane, later became the PA-8 [NX47Y] (1944).

PA-6 Sky Sedan — Four seat, low-wing retractable gear monoplane (1945).
PA-7 Skycoupe — Two seat low wing twin-boom monoplane, was PWA-1; production cancelled (1944).
PA-8 Skycycle — Cheap aircraft built from surplus F4U Corsair tanks; formerly known as the PWA-8 Cub Cycle (1945).
PA-9 — Single-engined high-wing observation and liaison aircraft project to replace the L-5; not built (1945).
PA-10 — Single-engined low-wing side-by-side two-seater aircraft project, similar in design to the Thorp F-11 Sky Skooter (1946).
PA-11 Cub Special — two-seat light aircraft development of the Cub, also used by the military as the L-18B Trainer (1947).
PA-12 Super Cruiser — Single-engined high-wing cabin monoplane developed from J-5C (1946).
PA-13 not used
PA-14 Family Cruiser — a four-seat variant of the Super Cruiser (1948).
PA-15 Vagabond — a side-by-side two-seater (1948).
PA-16 Clipper — Four-seat version of the PA-15 (1949).
PA-17 Vagabond, Vagabond Deluxe, Vagabond Trainer — Dual-control variant of the PA-15 (1948).
PA-18 Super Cub, Cub Special — improved version of the Cub, many to the military as the L-18C/L-21/U-7 (1950).
PA-19 Super Cub — Original designation of the military variant of the PA-18, only three built;
all subsequent military production were designated as PA-18s;
designation also used in France for 90 hp Super Cubs returned to civilian use
PA-20 Pacer — Four-seat, conventional landing gear, light cabin aircraft; like PA-16 with a more powerful engine (1949).
PA-21 Twin — Production version of the Baumann Brigadier, cancelled; designation never re-allocated to avoid confusion with L-21 (1949).
PA-22 Tri-Pacer, Colt, Caribbean — Updated version of the PA-20 with nose wheel; four-seat, tricycle landing gear, light cabin aircraft (1950).
 

Stargazer2006

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Part II

PA-23 Twin Stinson, Apache
— Twin-engined low-wing cabin monoplane (1954); later included the Aztec.
PA-24 Comanche — Single-engine four-seat low-wing cabin monoplane (1958).
PA-25 Pawnee — Single-engined agricultural monoplane (1959).
PA-26 Comanche — High-powered version of the PA-24, later renamed the PA-24-380.
PA-27 Aztec — Improved version of the PA-23 Apache, later renamed the PA-23-250.
PA-28 Cherokee — Single-engined low-wing cabin monoplane (1961);
many versions including the Warrior, Arrow, Cruiser, Flite Liner, Charger, Pathfinder, Dakota, Cadet and Pillan.
PA-29 Papoose — Enlarged PA-23, prototype only (1956).
PA-30 Twin Comanche — Twin-engined low wing cabin monoplane (1963).
PA-31 Navajo — Twin-engined low wing cabin monoplane (1967); versions include the Chieftain, Mojave and Cheyenne.
PA-32 Cherokee Six — a Six-seat Cherokee (1966); retractable gear versions are called Lance and Saratoga.
PA-33 Comanche — A pressurized Comanche, only one prototype (1966).
PA-34 Twin Six, Seneca — Twin-engine low-wing cabin monoplane (1972).
PA-35 Pocono — Twin-engined pressurized commuter airliner, prototype only (1968).
PA-36 Pawnee Brave — Single-engined agricultural monoplane (1973); also found as "Pawnee II" and plain "Brave".
PA-37 (Comanche) — A twin engined version of PA-33, possibly pressurized; not built.
PA-38 Tomahawk — T-tailed two-seat basic trainer (1978).
PA-39 Twin Comanche C/R — an improved PA-30 (1970).
PA-40 Arapaho — PA-30 replacement; only 3 built, and 5 more not completed (1973).
PA-41 Pressurized Aztec — similar to a PA-23-250 with a pressurized cabin (1974).
PA-42 Cheyenne III, Cheyenne IV — T-tail pressurized twin (1980).
PA-43 Cheyenne — a piston-engined PA-42, not built (1979).
PA-44 Seminole — a twin-engined Arrow (1979).
PA-45 — a six-seat T-tailed aircraft family of aircraft, later cancelled.
PA-46 Malibu Mirage, Malibu — Six-seat pressurized single (1984).
PA-47 Piperjet — jet-powered prototype for 6 or 7 passengers based on configuration (2008).
PA-48 Enforcer — Single seat counter-insurgency aircraft based on the Cavalier Mustang/P-51 Mustang (NOTE: first examples NOT designated) (1971).


Non-sequential / undesignated types

Voyager — Former Stinson, then Convair design; 325 sold, including 125 examples built by Piper from parts.
Stationwagon — Name probably given to a variant of the same aircraft.

PA-60 Aerostar, Sequoia — former Smith Aerostar 700P and 602P six-seat pressurized twins (1967).
PA-61 Aerostar — former Smith Aerostar 601, 601B and 601P.

LP-1 Swiftfury — Lopresti-Piper conversion of Globe GC-1 Swift; one demonstrator [N345LP] (1988).
LP-1? Swiftfire — Lopresti-Piper conversion of Globe GC-1 Swift; one demonstrator [N207LP] (1989).

PiperSport — Two seat light-sport aircraft produced by Czech Sport Aircraft and marketed by Piper; previously known as the SportCruiser (2010).

PAT-1 — Prototype meant to be the first all-composite canard commercially produced; crashed in a demonstration flight in Nov 1981.
This particular project was not developed by Piper Aircraft but by Bill's son "Pug" Piper under the name Piper Advanced Technology.
 

grubbyjeans

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frank said:
<snip>
[qoute]Piper P.A.7 and 8; P.A.13; P.A.26 and 27; P.A.37; P.A.39; P.A.41; P.A.43;P.A.45...47...49...?

Someone already mentioned the Skycycle (built from a surplus F4U droptank, BTW - yes, really!). The PA-7 Sky Coupe was an experimental four-seat light aircraft for the post-war market:

piper_pa-7.jpg


Never saw production, BTW

<snip>


For those interested, I have a build log going on this plane. I'm working from articles in the Dec-1945>Jan-1946 Air Trails. Here
 

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grubbyjeans said:
Someone already mentioned the Skycycle (built from a surplus F4U droptank, BTW - yes, really!). The PA-7 Sky Coupe was an experimental four-seat light aircraft for the post-war market

For those interested, I have a build log going on this plane. I'm working from articles in the Dec-1945>Jan-1946 Air Trails. Here

Fascinating! Thanks for the link, and welcome to this forum!
 

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Hi all
From a very old "Air international"
 

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famvburg

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But there was a 3 engined Cherokee Six that led to the Seneca, IIRC it had to 180 hp Lycomings on the wings.


Stargazer2006 said:
Mole said:
Woo hoo, great find on the trimotor Cherokee Six, thanks!

You're welcome! Actually, PA-30 was a Twin Comanche... (should have been "Tri-Comanche" here, but anyway... ;D )
 

Stargazer2006

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famvburg said:
But there was a 3 engined Cherokee Six that led to the Seneca, IIRC it had to 180 hp Lycomings on the wings.

If you have any picture and/or info on this, please share it!
 

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I'll see if I can find it. It's mentioned on Wikipedia under both entries for the PA-32 & PA-34 & was the Cherokee Six - 3M, IIRC.

Stargazer2006 said:
famvburg said:
But there was a 3 engined Cherokee Six that led to the Seneca, IIRC it had to 180 hp Lycomings on the wings.

If you have any picture and/or info on this, please share it!
 

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From the book, Piper Aircraft, and Their Forerunner,


here is Piper glory list.
 

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Jos Heyman

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That is potentially a very interesting and informative page. Is there any possibility that you scan it larger so that we can actually read it. Thanks in advance.
 

hesham

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Jos Heyman said:
That is potentially a very interesting and informative page. Is there any possibility that you scan it larger so that we can actually read it. Thanks in advance.


Sorry my dear Jos,


that's the best of I could,but I will send the book to my dear Skyblazer,may be he will
find away,as I think.
 

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famvburg said:
But there was a 3 engined Cherokee Six that led to the Seneca, IIRC it had to 180 hp Lycomings on the wings.


From 'Piper Aircraft and their Forerunners', page 226 :-


cheers,
Robin.
 

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Stargazer2006

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hesham said:
that's the best of I could,but I will send the book to my dear Skyblazer,may be he will find away,as I think.

Sure enough did, hesham... thanks for your trust and for the book, too! However, of course, I cannot improve on the center part that couldn't be scanned properly by the author of the PDF file because of the book's thickness (and probably some understandable reluctance to breaking its spine!).
 

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hesham

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Skyblazer said:
hesham said:
that's the best of I could,but I will send the book to my dear Skyblazer,may be he will find away,as I think.

Sure enough did, hesham... thanks for your trust and for the book, too! However, of course, I cannot improve on the center part that couldn't be scanned properly by the author of the PDF file because of the book's thickness (and probably some understandable reluctance to breaking its spine!).


No problem my dear Skyblazer,


maybe we can divide it into four pieces.
 

Jos Heyman

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Brilliant gentlemen, and thanks. You got a happy little chappie here downunder in Australia
 

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