Payen Pa.60 / Pa.61

Jemiba

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the upper photo (from aviafrance.com) shows the Pa.61, and as Philippe Ricco told
me, it's the B-version. The lower photo (from A. Pelletier "Les Ailes Volantes") is
designated as Pa.60. This may be correct, as the Pa.61B is said to have been
the modified Pa.60, with changes to the cooling system. Anyone who has
more material, that shows the differences more clearly ?
By the way, I asked in the aeroforum for new infos about Pierre Gaillards book about
Payen, without results after seven years of waiting. Only an anecdote came up,
that Monsieur Gaillard promised to hand the book to Roland Payen before
publishing it, so we probably will be waiting forever .... :'(
And someone came up with the link http://www.rsafrance.com/cahiers/cahiers_1999.htm ,
which mentiones an article, written by P.Gaillard, too. Is there anybody, who knows
this article ?
 

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Deltafan

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Hi Jemiba !

I am the "someone (who) came up with the link" ;)


I searched the answer about PA-60 and PA-61B in my files, but nothing...

In Le fana de l'aviation number 266 (01/1991) page 25 there is some words only about "the Pa 61"

In L'album du fanatique de l'aviation number 7 (01/1970), pages 2 to 4 there is your two planes but with others photos :
-3 of the "lower" but only 2 with the complete plane (the first from 3/4 rear and we cannot see the air intake, the second is the same view as your photo of the "lower" but without white paint),
-1 with the pilot (Jacques Petit) and he seems to be in the "lower" (because of the little "triangle" at the bottom of the cockpit, but I'm not sure).
-1 of the "upper" from 3/4 face,
The only name for the two planes is : PA-60... and there is no explanation about the differences...
 

johnmellberg

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I know I am very late to this thread, but just today I came across a really decent 3-view of the PA 61 and this seems the most appropriate place to add it.

(forgive me, oh moderators, if I err...)
 

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Jemiba

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Many thanks John ! Especially interesting here is, that the contour of the engine/
engine cowling is shown. I'll check this against my drawings of the Pa.61. Only the
shape of the cockpit/nose section seems to be too rounded, compared with photos,
I think.
 

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walter

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It is amazing how difficult it seems to find the correct or complete story on the PA-61/PA-61.
What I found over the years may be an attempt and I am inviting comments, reactions etc.

F-WKVS
The PA-60 reportedly first flew during May 1965 and had a 105hp Hirth HM504 engine (also noted it could have had a 105hp Walter Minor 4-II). Cooling problems with the engine soon meant it was modified and at the same time modifications to the (fixed) undercarriage were made.
After modifications it became the PA-61B (also noted PA-61/B) Arbalète and in this guise it first flew on 5 June 1965. The first aircraft had the main undercarriage units located below the vertical fins and these fins extended over the wings to the wing leading edge. The wings had a pronounced cranked l/e and the fins had a somewhat elliptical shape. Dimensions included wingspan 6,80m and length 5,10m
I understand this aircraft may still exists somewhere. Maybe the PA-60 was also known as the PA-60A

F-WSQA
The second aircraft (I have seen it described as the PA-61F or PA-61/F Arbalète II) which was first flown on 5 August 1970 and reportedly damaged during that flight.
It had a much different wing with a less cranked plan form and with increased area and small downward drooping wing tips. The engine became a 180hp Lycoming O-360-A3 and the vertical fins received a swept leading edge. In addition the nose had a more rounded shape and the main undercarriage units were relocated under the fuselage and it may have been the intention to make the gear retractable. The vertical fins no longer extended to the wing leading edge. I have never seen photos with the so called flush air intakes, only with the protruding inlets. Dimensions were claimed to be wingspan 7,10m and length around 5,10m
It seems the aircraft did not fly again after the mishap.

I never found out whether the PA-60/PA-61B had the Hirth or the Walter engine or that it maybe was re-engined when it became the PA-60B.

All comments welcome!!
 

Jemiba

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If I understand correctly the article from Pilote Prive, which I thankfully got from deltafan,
who dug it out from the MAE archive, the Pa.61 had a Hirth engine of 105 hp, whereas the
Pa.60 had an engine of 90hp, but the type seems not to be mentioned explicitly.
Deltafan, please correct me, if I'm wrong, wouldn't be too unusual, if I had missed soemthing
in a french text ... :-[

The different position of the main gear of the Pa.60 may have been still a result of the earlier
layout, which had large wheel spats as elongations of the fins.
 

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Deltafan

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Sorry for the late answer :-[

I was on holiday since 3 weeks and i am beginning the move in a new flat. I must found my Payen's file in the moving. I'll try to answer the question before the wrapping of the computer... :-\
 

Deltafan

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Well, i have a little time

For the dimensions, the drawings and even the first fly, the sources don't give allways the same... :-\

But :

The Pa.60 (2 seats and 90 hp engine) was the first foreseen version (near of the Pa.49). But the first built version (F-WKVS) was the Pa.61 B Arbalète (3 seats [but only 2 for the first one], Hirth 105 hp and other modifications). For the first fly i got "june 1963" (Roland Payen in Pilote Privé magazine) or "may 1965" (Alain Pelletier in Air Enthusiast magazine Bruno Parmentier in AviaFrance weblink), but the plane flew bad.
In all my files i didn't read something about a 105 hp Walter minor engine for the Pa.61 B ???

The second one (Pa.61 F Arbalète II / F-WSQA : 3 seats but only 2 for the prototype x Lycoming 180 hp) flew for the first and last time on the 05/08/1970.
 

Hawkster

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Hi All!
I am a newcomer to the forum. I have always been interested in the PA-61. A few years ago I talked to someone in France who told me the aircraft still exist! It is supposedly in storage somewhere. Does anyone know more about this?

I am also curious what really happened during the first flight. I hear that the pilot, by mistake, used the split rudders and thus the aircraft pitched up and possibly stalled, hence the hard landing. It would be interesting to know more about the flying characteristics.
Another thing would be interesting, to actually restore the aircraft to flying condition....

Reg's

Hakan
 

Deltafan

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I Hawkster

Sorry, i am not very active at present on secretprojects, i only saw your post today.

It is often difficult to give a good answer about Payen planes...

For the first question :
-in Pilote Privé Nr.131 from december 1984 (article of Roland Payen himself), there was still two frames of Pa.61. They could get a 90 hp (two seats) or a 150 hp (three seats) engine.
-In Le Fana de l'aviation in december 1991, Francis Nicole said that the building of the derivative Pa.161 began.
-In 1997, in Air Enthusiast from march/april (No.168) Alain Pelletier said that the Pa.61F was totally repaired in april 1971.
It's all what i know today. But i never asked the members of the Musee Delta for this. They sure know.

For the second question :
Payen in Pilote Privé : The pilot did not want to take off at this point of the landing strip, that's why the split rudder was still open. There was a little deformation on the landing strip and it was enough to take off... Payen say too that according a witness the plane was stable during the (too speed and with a too bad angle) fall....
 

hesham

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Hi,

here is the Payen Pa.60 under construction.
 

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Nik

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Well, that is a pretty little plane !


FWIW, I had to take a second look as it seems to have ample visibility, something you don't associate with his early designs. Most of those made a GeeBee's notorious glazing look like a bubble-canopy...
 

Hawkster

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It still would be interesting to know if the Pa.61 still exists...
 

Jemiba

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The Payen designs with, to say it diplomatically, "somewhat restricted visibility" were mostly
designed as racers, I think, a kind of aircraft, where the pilots view isn't the most important
thing even today.
The Pa.60/61 has the advantage, that it actually took to the air, but the photo posted by Hesham
(it was shown for example in AirEnthusiast March/April 1997) shows that at least to other types
were in an adavnced stage and for both it's difficult to find more information about, than were given
in the mentioned AE. For the Z.10 Guépard, I once got a sketch from deltafan, which I tried to mix
with the appearance of the unfinished prototype in the photo, as some points were different.
Nevertheless, it's still much more of a mystery, than the Pa.61 . ;)
 

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Deltafan

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Hawkster said:
It still would be interesting to know if the Pa.61 still exists...
My next visit in Le musee delta will be in a little more than one year (summer 2012 i guess), and the webmaster of the Musee delta website never answered me since 11 years... (This webmaster is a relative of a Musee delta member, but he is not present in this Musee). If i find anything about this matter in the meantime this topic will be the first to know about it.
 

hesham

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And what about this,


it was also Payen Pa.61.
 

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Jemiba

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hesham said:
And what about this,


it was also Payen Pa.61.
That's probably a typo, or a misreading of the caption of a drawing for a brevet, which is shown
for example in Pierre Gaillards article about the Payen designs. Have attached a cut-out and, yes,
the type number could be read as "61", but as you see, it was the "64". BTW, in the list in the
"Designations Systems" section, you can find it as Pa.64 Novae, too.
Interesting, of course, that your drawing seems to be the same, as in the mentioned article, with
the exception of the modified type number. Maybe someone wanted to make clearer, what he thought
was the correct designation ? Where do you got this drawing from, Hesham ?
 

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hesham

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You are right my dear Jemiba.
 

Deltafan

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Hawkster said:
It still would be interesting to know if the Pa.61 still exists...
I got the answer today from members of the Musee Delta :

The repair was foreseen but not made. Finally the plane was clattered.
 

Deltafan

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I just found this link. It seems to be a photo taken in 2016 in Le Musée Delta (created by French Builder Roland Payen), near French Paris-Orly Airport. There is a copyright on the photo.

We can see 10 drawings of the Payen Pa.60 ( 3 x 3 views and 1 from 3/4 rear).

 

Jemiba

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Thanks for sharing !
Was reminded again to the "PA-81", the version of the Pa.61 with either a Continental or Lycoming piston engine, or even
one or two small jet engines and offered for the German WGL-contest (WGL : Wissenschaftliche Gesellschaft für Luftfahrt,
Scientific Society for Aviation) for a new training aircraft. As the article says, it was offered in co-operation of Roland Payen
and Wolfgang Späte, who was a former pilot and squadron leader of a Me 163 squadron. Maybe his experience with that
tailless design had led him to support the Pa.61/PA-81.
 

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Deltafan

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Thanks for the sharing of the Pa.81 Jem ;)
 
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