Remaining US Model number mysteries

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Allow me to recapitulate in this one topic the main project mysteries that remain in some of the main US manufacturers' (only those which have a consistent numbering system and a limited number of "holes" are listed here:

BELL : Model 31 (not allocated?)
BEECHCRAFT: Models 21, 22, 27, 29-32, 37, 39, 41-43, 47-49, 51-54, 57, 59, 61-64, 66-69, 71, 72, 74, 75, 82, 83, 86, 91-94, 96-98 (no evidence that all of these existed at all)
CONSOLIDATED : Models 13 (skipped? or possible candidate XN3Y-1?), 19
CONSOLIDATED-VULTEE (CONVAIR) : 113-114
CONVAIR (1950s): Models 13-14, 21, 26, 28, 29, 32-37, 39-47, 50-54, 56, 57, 59, 63-68
CURTISS-WRIGHT : CW-13 (apparently skipped), CW-34 to -39
EMSCO : B-6 (could be their large 32-passenger, four-engine transport project)
GRUMMAN : G-28 (no record)
LOCKHEED (NOT Vega): Models 6 (could have been inhouse designator for Detroit DL-1 series), 13 (skipped), 17, 25, 28, 34, 36, 38, 39, 40-42 (IF different from Vega Models), 46-48, 53-59, 63-74, 76-79 (records for all these are said to be "lost"...), 95-98
MARTIN : 1-56 (many types were built before Model 57 but Model numbers are said to have been unassigned), 58, 59, 61, 62, 78 (all said to have been unassigned), 86-114 (said to have been unassigned to aircraft)
NORTH AMERICAN : NA-80 (canceled project, no details)
PIPER : P-3, PA-13 (apparently skipped)
PITCAIRN : PA-9, PA-10, PA-12 to PA-15 (possibly inhouse designators for PCA- and PAA- autogyros)
SIKORSKY: S-77, S-79, S-81 to -91 (existed?)
STEARMAN : X110
VULTEE: Models 2-10, 13-19 (existed?), 21-31, 34, 36, 53, 59, 60, 64-68, 71, 73, 81, 82, 87

Obvious omissions here are Boeing (tackled in a topic of its own) and Douglas (too many gaps!)
I'm currently working on McDonnell, Republic, Fairchild and a few more...

Thanks to anyone who could solve part of these mysteries!!!
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
28,357
Reaction score
6,004
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Hi,

for CW-28,please see;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1643.0/highlight,cw+28.html
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Thanks, Hesham! Wonder how could have missed that info from that topic, which I even posted in!
There remains the mystery of Models 34 to 39 too... but that's post-war so I did not include them here.
 

Apophenia

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
2,853
Reaction score
1,488
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Wasn't the NA-136 the predecessor of the NA-140 (XP-86) as a proposed USAF variation on the unswept NA-134 (XFJ-1 Fury)?

No clue on the NA-80 or NA-86. I Googled and they popped up on the Smithsonian NASM SIRIS. Has anyone else ever used this 'Thesauri' without finding themselves in a pointless, informationless loop?
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

You bet! These thesaurii are just pointless, they just keep refering you to pages that in turn refer to the original pages! I guess you'd have to be in their library to make full use of those listings...

Interesting assumption concerning NA-136. Don't think I even SAW that intermediary proposal you're talking about... Do you have anything on that? Or at least refer me to some source on the subject? Thanks!
 

Apophenia

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
2,853
Reaction score
1,488
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Stargazer: thanks for the Smithsonian NASM thesaurii confirmation. Very annoying! :mad:

Sorry, I have no details or anything novel about the NA-136. I've read that the three XP-86 prototypes (45-59597/59599) were first ordered (May 1945) with straight wings. The first prototype was completed with swept wings after NAA got a grant (RD 1369) to experiment with such wings.

In Developing the XP-86: Straight Wing XP-86 by Larry Davis there is a description of this straight winged Sabre. Davis doesn't mention the NA-136 per se, he just calls it the XP-86.

"The XP-86 differed considerably from its Navy cousin, now designated the XFJ-1. North American refined the fuselage shape and deleted many of the things designed to aid in low speed performance that were required for aircraft carrier landings. The XP-86 wing had the same planform as the XFJ-1, but the airfoil was much thinner. On both the upper and lower wing seurfaces were the dive brakes, borrowed directly from the A-36A version of the Mustang. The fuselage had a much higher fineness ratio than the XFJ-1, and the intake was oval in shape. Power was the same for both aircraft - the GE TG 180 (J35). The TG 180 had an eleven stage, axial flow compressor, and offered 4,000 lbs of thrust."

For a fully description of the design, see Sabre Jet Classics Volume 4 Number 1 Winter 1996:
http://sabre-pilots.org/classics/v41develop.htm
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Very interesting, thanks!
Indeed there is no indication that this might have been designation, although this clearly makes it a most likely candidate for it...
 

Antonio

Moderator
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,639
Reaction score
498
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Found NA-135 (792 Fairchild C-82N to be produced at North American lines at Kansas City) and NA-137 (1000 Lockheed P-80N to be produced at North American lines at Kansas City). Both orders cancelled with the end of WWII. NA-138 corresponded to a cancelled order of 629 P-51D for the USAF.

No clues about NA-136 but I think it not necessary had to match an unbuilt aircraft design...just a thought.


Source: NA Aircraft 1934-1998 Volume 1. Norm Avery
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Thanks. The annoying thing is that North American charge numbers are pretty well-documented, and I have a complete list from NA-15 (the very first NAA model) to 407 except for 6 missing numbers: 80, 86, 136, 250, 355, 368, all of which have stubbornly resisted years of investigations through tons of books, magazines and websites...
Being a completist at heart, I just cannot rest until the gaps are filled... Is my condition serious, Dr. Pometablava? LOL
 

Antonio

Moderator
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,639
Reaction score
498
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Our completist condition is serious Stargazer ;D
 

Apophenia

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
2,853
Reaction score
1,488
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

A longshot on the Emsco B-6. Does anyone have a copy of Aviation Quarterly Vol1 No2 1974?

http://www.angelfire.com/ks2/janowski/other_aircraft/Aviation_Quarterly.txt
According to this site on Jaroslaw Janowski's designs, Walt Boyne penned an article for AQ entitled Rocheville: Imagineer Emeritus. Might be worth a look.
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Cool... My dad's got them right from #2 onwards! Next time I visit him I'll take a look. Thanks!
Which reminds me... is there somewhere a general index of all Air Enthusiast articles? That would be pretty useful!
 

Antonio

Moderator
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,639
Reaction score
498
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Air Enthusiast contents:

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/mags/uk/air_enthusiast.htm
 

nugo

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
337
Reaction score
16
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Hi Stargazer2006!

Curtiss Model 65---Hawk II, export version of the XF11C-2

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F11C_Goshawk

Northrop Model 13---The process of welding
Northrop Model 17---XP-61E, long range day fighter/bomber escort
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Thanks Nugo!
I would find the Model 65 a convincing piece of information if the Putnam book and other sources didn't say otherwise. Needs some more exploration...
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

A webpage seems to confirm that the missing NA-136 designation was allocated to the initial straight-wing version of the XP-86, of which the USAF apparently ordered three examples until it was decided to go for the swept-wings and pick the NA-140 design instead.

Here's the page: http://www.hyperscale.com/2009/features/sabremk648ho_1.htm

I'd like to find other sources to be sure, but it seems to be a good start.

EDIT: I've added the superb illustration of the NA-136 by Tim Large, taken from this document:
http://www.thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Aircraft/Fighters/North%20American%20NA-140.doc
 

Attachments

  • NA-136.jpg
    NA-136.jpg
    134.2 KB · Views: 572

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Also it seems that the Lockheed Models 41 and 42 corresponded to Vega-built targets (the latter being the V-114). These are given as Vega Models, not Lockheed, so I'm not sure. Did Vega actually have a separate Model system besides their V-designs?

Here are the correspondances I found so far:
Vega V-127 -- Model 21 Ventura (project)
Vega V-??? -- Model 22 Starliner (obviously conflicts with Lockheed's Model 22 Lightning)
Vega V-133 -- Model 23 Ventura (B-34) (conflicts with Lockheed's Model 23 = 522 = L-106 = XP-49)
Vega V-146 -- Model 26 Neptune
Vega V-305 -- Model 33 Little Dipper (generally considered a Lockheed Model)
Vega V-306 -- Model 34 Big Dipper (generally considered a Lockheed Model)
Vega V-125 -- Model 35 (Vega 35, developed from North American NA-35 trainer)
Vega V-??? -- Model 37 Ventura
Vega V-??? -- Model 41 target plane
Vega V-114 -- Model 42 target plane

Apart from Models 22 and 23, the other model numbers fit in pretty nicely in the Lockheed basic model numbers list. Does anyone have a complete list of Lockheed basic model numbers somewhere? This would clarify whether Vega had a separate model number list or not? Thanks!
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
I have modified the title of the topic and updated the initial post to include post-war mysteries as well. Thanks to anyone who can contribute!
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,225
Reaction score
804
Re: Remaining US Model number mysteries (pre-1945)

Stargazer2006 said:
A webpage seems to confirm that the missing NA-136 designation was allocated to the initial straight-wing version of the XP-86, of which the USAF apparently ordered three examples until it was decided to go for the swept-wings and pick the NA-140 design instead.

Here's the page: http://www.hyperscale.com/2009/features/sabremk648ho_1.htm

I'd like to find other sources to be sure, but it seems to be a good start.

Apparently the designation NA-136 did NOT apply to the straight-wing XP-86 project as previously suggested.

Forum member Steve Pace reveals the allocation of that designation here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,665.msg171934.html#msg171934

I have edited my posts and apologize for the wrong assumption.
 

Similar threads

Top