panzerschiff concept

[sgeorges4]

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any original drawing regarding the admiral graf spee conception and why it was fitted with that tower? was this tower decided to be fitted in this ship from the start?

 

[Arjen]

Admiral Scheer and Admiral Graf Spee were both launched with a tower bridge superstructure, the earlier Deutschland (renamed Lützow in 1940) had a different bridge.

 

[Arjen]

Image found here: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=HU+1049

 

[Tzoli]

Yes, those are the Deutschland preliminaries, otherwise known as the Zenker designs. Mostly big gun cruisers but there was a Monitor and a Battlecruiser design as well.
Some info can be found here:

NavWeaps Forums-Admiral Zenker's warship design's

Miketr: I came across this online (http://www.avalanchepress.com/WeimarFle ... mode=print) and rather than derail Pinafore’s thread I decided to put

www.tapatalk.com

But due to forum change the old codes were not imported and thus it's difficult to read the table.

 

[sgeorges4]

any conceptual design regarding the admiral graf spee? Why the tower was chosed instead of the tubular design of the deutschland? Also what modification were considered for him after his return to the port(if he came back of course because I know he didn't came back from his first war trip).

 

[Arjen]

For modifications considered for Admiral Graf Spee, look at Admiral Scheer.
From wiki:

Admiral Scheer was modified during the early months of 1940, including the installation of a new, raked clipper bow. The heavy command tower was replaced with a lighter structure, and she was reclassified as a heavy cruiser. Additional anti-aircraft guns were also installed, along with updated radar equipment.

Image found here: https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/kriegsmarine/scheer/cruiser-admiral-scheer/

 

[sgeorges4]

basicaly the graf spee would go with the same modification as the Scheer?
Also found this Deutschland concept:

HMA

Eine Plattform auf der Daten, Artikel und Berichte rund um die Geschichte der Marine präsentiert werden.

www.historisches-marinearchiv.de

 

[Arjen]

Panzerschiff Admiral Scheer at Pillau in November of 1944. The pier at this location is Rattenmole. Image from facebook.

 

[sgeorges4]

from navire et histoire hors série 37

 

[sgeorges4]

any info regarding the sixth considered panzerschiff?

 

[sgeorges4]

entwurf drawing

Lützow

Panzerschiff A (Lützow ex-Deutschland) Urs Heßling: La polémica en torno a la construcción. Im März 1927 lag der durchkonstruierte Entwurf „I/M26“ des Panzerschiffs vor. Mit der offiziellen Entscheidung des Chefs der Marineleitung für den neuen Schiffstyp am 11. Juni 1927 war der Weg frei. Peter...

titanic-models.fandom.com

panzerschiffe D and E concept

Deutscher Baum , Schlachtkreuzer

Und Spee und Scharnhorst nochmal bestätig haben, dass diese Zwischenkaliber (also alles zwischen 211 und 299mm) funktionieren. @DaedMemories Für T VIII möglicherweise (mit zwei zusätzlichen 105mm beim hinteren Schornstein), darüber bräuchte es dann wohl einen Turm mehr (also O mit 283mm). Ich hab...

forum.worldofwarships.eu

 

[Tzoli]

I've found this image:

https://frm-wows-eu.wgcdn.co/wows_forum_eu/monthly_2021_06/image0.png.08011def8e1ee5446ab6a294cdcd7aff.png

But I'm not sure how accurate it is.
I can see the German designers eventually develop a Battleship from the O class Battlecrusiers, but that two P class designs seeems quite odd, not reminiscent of the P class we know of (Updated Deutschland concept) these P I and P II seems like a smaller version of the O class!

Do you guys know if these were real or not?

 

[ceccherini]

I've found this image:

https://frm-wows-eu.wgcdn.co/wows_forum_eu/monthly_2021_06/image0.png.08011def8e1ee5446ab6a294cdcd7aff.png

But I'm not sure how accurate it is.
I can see the German designers eventually develop a Battleship from the O class Battlecrusiers, but that two P class designs seeems quite odd, not reminiscent of the P class we know of (Updated Deutschland concept) these P I and P II seems like a smaller version of the O class!

Do you guys know if these were real or not?

Highly interesting. I've often read at some time 38 cm guns were proposed for P Class cruiser, my guess is P-I and P-II are pre ww2 studies to upgun P class used as a reference to make a comparison with progressivly improved, later, O Class battlecruiser. O42 ended to be basically a 38 cm gun armed H39, while H42 was already a 90000 ton beast.

 

[Tzoli]

I'm perplexed by the secondary weapon of choice too for the P I-II as these (likely a typo) were the older 128mm SK C/34 and not a 34 calibre long new 128mm Gun? The SK C/34 was a /45 anti surface gun with a twin mount developed for the submarine cruisers which were eventually abandoned. Though I don't know if the Germans were intending to develop an AA gun out of it

 

[40902nd]

Does anyone know which book the page in the original post is from?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Does anyone know which book the page in the original post is from?

German Capital Ships of the Second World War by Siegfried Breyer and Miroslaw Skwiot. A truly excellent book on the design history of the Panzerschiff is included.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

I'm perplexed by the secondary weapon of choice too for the P I-II as these (likely a typo) were the older 128mm SK C/34 and not a 34 calibre long new 128mm Gun? The SK C/34 was a /45 anti surface gun with a twin mount developed for the submarine cruisers which were eventually abandoned. Though I don't know if the Germans were intending to develop an AA gun out of it

Behold, the 12.8cm/45 SK C/34 in Drh L C/38 twin turret.
It does have limited AA capability.
Most notably was to be mounted on the Typ 1938B destroyers.

Don't know much about them besides that they have 60 degrees of elevation.
They are not the same turrets as on the Type XI U-Boat.


Sorry, had to use German-Navy.de since it's the only thing I have on-hand. It gets the job done, though.
Anyway, you can clearly see the difference. They may be related, though.

 

[Tzoli]

I'm perplexed by the secondary weapon of choice too for the P I-II as these (likely a typo) were the older 128mm SK C/34 and not a 34 calibre long new 128mm Gun? The SK C/34 was a /45 anti surface gun with a twin mount developed for the submarine cruisers which were eventually abandoned. Though I don't know if the Germans were intending to develop an AA gun out of it

Behold, the 12.8cm/45 SK C/34 in Drh L C/38 twin turret.
It does have limited AA capability.
Most notably was to be mounted on the Typ 1938B destroyers.

Do you have a drawing or sketch of how this should look like?

 

[40902nd]

Thank you kindly. I've found a Kindle version of the book, though I want to go back later and get a hard copy.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

I'm perplexed by the secondary weapon of choice too for the P I-II as these (likely a typo) were the older 128mm SK C/34 and not a 34 calibre long new 128mm Gun? The SK C/34 was a /45 anti surface gun with a twin mount developed for the submarine cruisers which were eventually abandoned. Though I don't know if the Germans were intending to develop an AA gun out of it

Behold, the 12.8cm/45 SK C/34 in Drh L C/38 twin turret.
It does have limited AA capability.
Most notably was to be mounted on the Typ 1938B destroyers.

Do you have a drawing or sketch of how this should look like?

The best image I have is of the Type 1938B plan itself, clearly showing the elevation. I can't provide it now, but hopefully in the next day or so.
And of course there's the Type 1941 series destroyers, in parallel development with the Type 1936C.
...And Kolonialkanonenboot 1939 (AKA Hermelin, who likely only got the 12.8cm/61 KM40 guns because WG didn't know what tf they were looking at initially).

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Thank you kindly. I've found a Kindle version of the book, though I want to go back later and get a hard copy.

Kindle version gets the job done, but yeah I'd go for the hard copy. GL!

 

[Tzoli]

Well Wargamign doesn't even know how a turret works at all (putting Rangefidner in FRONT of a 20" turret is the "best" position... )
Aren't those 15cm twin turrets???

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Well Wargamign doesn't even know how a turret works at all (putting Rangefidner in FRONT of a 20" turret is the "best" position... )
Aren't those 15cm twin turrets???

It does share the same nomenclature as the 15cm twin, and they even look similar.


But I'm not sure it's the same. I feel the 12.7cm/45 Drh L C/38 is a derivative at best. They do have separate elevations. The twin in the Type 1938B plans is also flat-faced instead of whatever is going on with the 15cm/48 Drh L C/38.

 

[Tzoli]

So the ones you just posted are the 15cm or the 12,8cm ones?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

So the ones you just posted are the 15cm or the 12,8cm ones?

Top is the 15cm/48
Bottom depicts the 12.8cm/45 Drh L C/38 on the Type 1938B.

 

[Tzoli]

I've been asked to identify these drawings, but as the German navy is not my favorite I don't know if these were real drawings or just edits. They look like P class preliminaries with Deutschland like elements.

Also seems like I cannot make any BB code changes like italic, font change or include image links as these are greyed out on the comment sub window. Why is that?

 

[alexi]

The guy who posted these said he take from this forum, that's what he said but no luck finding it so far.

 

[Kresta II]

I've been asked to identify these drawings, but as the German navy is not my favorite I don't know if these were real drawings or just edits. They look like P class preliminaries with Deutschland like elements.

Also seems like I cannot make any BB code changes like italic, font change or include image links as these are greyed out on the comment sub window. Why is that?

These are several little-known preliminary projects of new "Panzerschiff"-class ships for the destruction of maritime trade, launched after the cancellation of the "P"-panzerschiff program and the subsequent program of the battlecruiser "O" in 1939-41

 

[40902nd]

Thank you, very much. Can you tell me which book it is from?

Also, I noticed that the data shows 2x2 15cm, but 2x3 15cm guns are shown.

 

[Kresta II]

Siegfried Breyer, «Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1921 - 1997. Internationaler Schlachtschiffbau.», Bernard & Graefe, 2002 - if I remember correctly.

This book, unfortunately, contains a lot of typos, especially in tabular data

 

[40902nd]

Would you suggest trusting the data or the illustrations?

Also, that's a pricey book. Looks like I'll need to start seeing some money aside.
Thank you, kindly.

 

[Kresta II]

Would you suggest trusting the data or the illustrations?

Also, that's a pricey book. Looks like I'll need to start seeing some money aside.
Thank you, kindly.

If the data in this publication contradicts the illustrations, I would trust the illustrations. The illustrations correlate well with archival drawings.

 

[alexi]

So they're intermediate projects right? they do have some elements of H-class and O-class too.

 

[Kresta II]

No, this is a return to project "P"-class again after the cancellation of project "O"-class in 1941

 

[Roodbaard1958!]

I wonder if anyone have more information about the 'at at least twenty designs were submitted with nine of them being considered and 3 selected as final contenders for the German P-class heavy cruisers planned to succeed the Deutschland-class heavy cruisers (well known as the so-called pocket battleshipä). The source for this number is of designs is an article dealing in Wipedia:

P-class cruiser - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Erich Gröner mentioned in his book that between March 1938 and December 1939 towing experiments were carried out with at least 9 designs (the ninen Grazke mntioned?) and Garzke&Dulin was the source for the above mentioned 20 designs. What I wonder is what the (archival) sources were used by Gröner and Garzke&Dulin and if the mentioned designs are more specified other publications like the preliminary designs for the Duetschland-clas. I could not immediately find if someone already asked the same on this forum.
.

 

[40902nd]

So far, I have found specifications for a number of P-Class designs.
There are:
Original 19,000-20,000t specification
Entwurf A (23,000t)
Entwurf B (23,700t, extra weight comes from swapping to 38cm two-gun turrets)
A 29,000t proto-O-Class
Neue Panzerschiffe, Alternativentwurf 1937/38 mit drei 28cm-Zwillingstrumen
Neue Panzerschiffe, Alternativentwurf mit zwei 28cm-Drillingstrumen
(The two above are also accompanied by 2 different armor scheme, one turtlebacked, the other with multiple bulkheads)
Entwurf von A V (the design with turret Anton superfiring over the 15cm secondary, one on the two most commonly depicted designs)
Neues Panzerschiffe, Entwurfsvariante von ca. 1939 (the other most commonly depicted design)
PI and PII seem to be from after the transition to Battlecruiser was made.

Most of these were found in the aforementioned book, which is only in German. PI and PII are from a table with specifications for O39-O41 and appear to be more related to the O-Class than the P-Class.

 

[alexi]

Are they from Breyer's book? the two panzerschiff alternative types came from one of his book page, any idea on proto O-class and two design A and B?

 

[40902nd]

Most of what I've found are from Siegfried Beyer's Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1921-1997: Internationaler Schlachtschiffbau.

A and B are detailed in table Datenzusammestellung fur Entwurfe A und B on page 180. The proto-O-Class is described in a table that starts at the end of the next page and continues onto the one after, under the sketches for the Neue Panzerschiffe.

 

[lukasgrul]

I've been asked to identify these drawings, but as the German navy is not my favorite I don't know if these were real drawings or just edits. They look like P class preliminaries with Deutschland like elements.

Also seems like I cannot make any BB code changes like italic, font change or include image links as these are greyed out on the comment sub window. Why is that?

From what I know there were four versions of these Handelzerstorers. Three of them are on shipbucket. Version III had 6 283mm guns. Version IIIB had 4 380mm guns and the KIG version is same as version III bit it had diesel propulsion.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

I've been asked to identify these drawings, but as the German navy is not my favorite I don't know if these were real drawings or just edits. They look like P class preliminaries with Deutschland like elements.

Also seems like I cannot make any BB code changes like italic, font change or include image links as these are greyed out on the comment sub window. Why is that?

From what I know there were four versions of these Handelzerstorers. Three of them are on shipbucket. Version III had 6 283mm guns. Version IIIB had 4 380mm guns and the KIG version is same as version III bit it had diesel propulsion.

I believe that the 1941 KIG proposal is Kesselraum and Turbinenraum (boiler and turbine rooms). EM is unfamiliar to me, but I can assume it's referring to auxiliaries.