Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

quellish said:
Many of the basic, regular maintenance tasks on the F-22 require removal and reapplication of coatings. This is labor intensive. The F-22 coatings also degrade due to features of the F-22 design.

"F-35 RAM" is not going to solve these problems.

The F-35 was designed to make access to the inside of the aircraft easier and require less messing with the coatings. That can't be retrofitted to the F-22. The F-35 also has a fundamentally different coating stack because the structure was designed differently.
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Hey, what is your source on that...I am pretty sure the F-22 AND F-35 "coating stacks" are heavily classified
 
Tonknee said:
Hey, what is your source on that...I am pretty sure the F-22 AND F-35 "coating stacks" are heavily classified
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Court filings (Olsen, Zoltek, McDonnell Douglas, etc)
DoD Environmental Research Program
DoD Corrosion Protection Program
Contracts and purchase orders (Nippon Carbon / COI Ceramics, Chomerics, etc)
Technical reports and presentations (such as below)
DoD guidance for international transfer of low observable and counter low observable system

But hey everyone likes pictures, even if they are reposts. The "stack up" diagram omits the RAM layer(s).

(Diagrams Removed)

The coating stacks are not classified. Some aspects of how they are produced, used, and their performance attributes when applied are but not as much as you might expect.
 
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Seeing that first pic, Quellish, makes me wonder if it'd be possible to reskin an F-22 to use the F-35 materials.

I am aware that the F-22 doesn't have parts and access doors in quite the right places like the F-35 does.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Seeing that first pic, Quellish, makes me wonder if it'd be possible to reskin an F-22 to use the F-35 materials.
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No, it’s not, which the picture explains.

…. Posting a picture sure didn’t help the discussion so that will be the last I post.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Seeing that first pic, Quellish, makes me wonder if it'd be possible to reskin an F-22 to use the F-35 materials.

I am aware that the F-22 doesn't have parts and access doors in quite the right places like the F-35 does.
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The topic already persisted at least a page ago and probably even before that, according to Quellish and others the process of how RAM is applied and overall implemented and interacts with other stuff is fundamentally different between the F-22 and F-35.

So while the RAM used on the F-35 works with the F-35, it seems that the process of application and the physical properties would have to be seriously changed to be applicable to the F-22. If I understood correctly you'd basically have to develop an entirely new coating specifically for the F-22.
 
quellish said:
No, it’s not, which the picture explains.

…. Posting a picture sure didn’t help the discussion so that will be the last I post.
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Please don't be disheartened, your insights are always appreciated and valued.
 
EmoBirb said:
The topic already persisted at least a page ago and probably even before that, according to Quellish and others the process of how RAM is applied and overall implemented and interacts with other stuff is fundamentally different between the F-22 and F-35.

So while the RAM used on the F-35 works with the F-35, it seems that the process of application and the physical properties would have to be seriously changed to be applicable to the F-22. If I understood correctly you'd basically have to develop an entirely new coating specifically for the F-22.
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I meant "rip off the aluminum/titanium skin and replace with the composite stuff the F-35 uses", not just "replace the coatings on top of the skin."

Statement also directed to @quellish

So you're using the full stack developed for the F-35, all the way down.
 
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Scott Kenny said:
I meant "rip off the aluminum/titanium skin and replace with the composite stuff the F-35 uses", not just "replace the coatings on top of the skin."
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I could imagine even that wouldn't be enough? But even if it was, it would basically be the construction of an entirely new aircraft. As such modifications would be very extensive, demanding and costly.

If it wasn't as hard as others have suggested, they probably would have done it by now. Given how much time, manpower and money the upkeep of the coatings of the F-22 devour.
 
JetBrain said:
www.twz.com

New F-22 Upgrade Package To Keep The Jets Viable Laid Out

The Air Force's latest budget request has new details about the cocktail of enhancements that aim to keep the F-22 relevant.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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1. Low Observable signature management
2. Pilot Vehicle Interface
3. Countermeasures
4. Helmet
5. Future crypto upgrades
6. Dynamic Synthetic Aperture Radar
7. Cyber security
8. Infrared Defensive System, which involves improved missile launch detection capabilities. Formal decision about whether to start low-rate initial production of IRDS for integration onto the F-22 fleet is scheduled to occur in the fourth quarter of Fiscal Year 2026.
9. Electronic Warfare system enhancements to counter evolving EW threat


"No further details about the other components of the viability upgrade package are included in the budget documents. "


Saved you having to read the additional 23 paragraphs of nothingness.
 
Kiltonge said:
1. Low Observable signature management
2. Pilot Vehicle Interface
3. Countermeasures
4. Helmet
5. Future crypto upgrades
6. Dynamic Synthetic Aperture Radar
7. Cyber security
8. Infrared Defensive System, which involves improved missile launch detection capabilities. Formal decision about whether to start low-rate initial production of IRDS for integration onto the F-22 fleet is scheduled to occur in the fourth quarter of Fiscal Year 2026.
9. Electronic Warfare system enhancements to counter evolving EW threat


"No further details about the other components of the viability upgrade package are included in the budget documents. "


Saved you having to read the additional 23 paragraphs of nothingness.
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Crypto upgrades? Will pilots have to buy into Raptorcoin or something if they want any hours in the air?
 
www.ga-asi.com

GA-ASI Welcomes USAF Designation for New CCA: YFQ-42A

General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, Inc. (GA-ASI) welcomes the U.S. Air Force’s designation for its Collaborative Combat Aircraft: the new uncrewed jet fighter will be called the YFQ-42A. The announcement on Monday followed an earlier USAF decision in 2024 that GA-ASI was selected to develop...
www.ga-asi.com
Semi-autonomous aircraft, like YFQ-42A, will enhance flexibility, affordability, and mission effectiveness.
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According to the GA-ASI, the YFQ-42A is semi-autonomous.

boeing.mediaroom.com

Boeing, RAAF Demonstrate MQ-28 Teaming with E-7A Wedgetail

- Two uncrewed MQ-28 aircraft controlled by single operator onboard an E-7A Wedgetail - Successful trial validates key interoperability requirement to meet operational capability WOOMERA, South...
boeing.mediaroom.com boeing.mediaroom.com
During the mission, a single operator onboard the E-7A took control of the uncrewed MQ-28s emulating the role they play in flying ahead of and protecting crewed assets.
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The MQ-28 needs an operator.

Considering that the F-22 is a single-seat fighter, I guess there is still a long way to go.
 
JetBrain said:
www.ga-asi.com

GA-ASI Welcomes USAF Designation for New CCA: YFQ-42A

General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, Inc. (GA-ASI) welcomes the U.S. Air Force’s designation for its Collaborative Combat Aircraft: the new uncrewed jet fighter will be called the YFQ-42A. The announcement on Monday followed an earlier USAF decision in 2024 that GA-ASI was selected to develop...
www.ga-asi.com

According to the GA-ASI, the YFQ-42A is semi-autonomous.

boeing.mediaroom.com

Boeing, RAAF Demonstrate MQ-28 Teaming with E-7A Wedgetail

- Two uncrewed MQ-28 aircraft controlled by single operator onboard an E-7A Wedgetail - Successful trial validates key interoperability requirement to meet operational capability WOOMERA, South...
boeing.mediaroom.com boeing.mediaroom.com

The MQ-28 needs an operator.

Considering that the F-22 is a single-seat fighter, I guess there is still a long way to go.
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They are “point and click” not throttle and stick.
 
Forest Green said:

F-22 Raptors Will Be First To Control ‘Fighter Drone’ Collaborative Combat Aircraft​

www.twz.com

F-22 Raptors Will Be First To Control ‘Fighter Drone’ Collaborative Combat Aircraft

F-22s look set to be the first operational controllers for USAF CCAs, but many questions still remain about how those drones will be employed.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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Was not the F-35 previously going to be the first CCA aircraft? I would have thought pairing CCAs with a super cruiser rather limiting to the manned aircraft.
 
Josh_TN said:
I would have thought pairing CCAs with a super cruiser rather limiting to the manned aircraft.
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It would require either:
  1. launching the CCAs a long time ahead of the supercruiser and then the supercruiser picking up control of the CCAs as it arrived on scene (making the time-on-target calculations complex), or
  2. having supercruise-capable CCAs with similar range (read: expensive and not particularly attritable)
 
F-22 is the inevitable threshold a/c for CCAs. It’s here now and is in an upgrade path that will give it new sensors and comms via a narrow “slice” of open architecture in an otherwise proprietary set of mission systems. To me, CCA is a clear force multiplier for every F-22 mission I can think of, in a way that F-35 cannot claim, mostly bc of a more diverse and strike oriented set of missions.
 
Scott Kenny said:
It would require either:
  1. launching the CCAs a long time ahead of the supercruiser and then the supercruiser picking up control of the CCAs as it arrived on scene (making the time-on-target calculations complex), or
  2. having supercruise-capable CCAs with similar range (read: expensive and not particularly attritable)
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Just bc Raptor can super cruise doesn’t mean that it will, or should. In fact, getting to the action a bit slower, but without generating a supersonic thermal signature and with more gas, is better most times than the reverse.
 
quellish said:
No.
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I had thought that when the thousand CCA figure was first mentioned (by Kendal?) that the specific theoretical breakdown was two per 200 NGAD and two for 300 F-35. I had also thought I read somewhere that studies found that incr1 CCA would need F-35 cruise speed to be relevant, because that was the primary aircraft the first generation was being paired with. Perhaps I my memory is incorrect.

In any case I think the CCA program has moved past those initial deployment ideas.
 
Training_Dummy said:
Just bc Raptor can super cruise doesn’t mean that it will, or should. In fact, getting to the action a bit slower, but without generating a supersonic thermal signature and with more gas, is better most times than the reverse.
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Granted.

But if you want to have air combat CCAs that could keep up with a Raptor, you need to do what I said.
 
Sandboxx has a short video about the F-22 being the first aircraft to have drone wingmen:


It’s official, America’s F-22 Raptor will be the first operational fighters to receive the hardware upgrade necessary to control entire formations of drone wingmen as part of a much broader $11+ billion upgrade that’s already underway for these unparalleled stealth fighters.
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Credit to The Warzone, who I believe was the first to break this story!https://www.twz.com/air/f-22-raptors-...
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If the F-22 production line is re-opened then they might also want to build some two-seat F-22Bs.
 
That post is trollish content and doesn’t appear to benefit this forum from a technical viewpoint (but it got Quellish to snap shoot!!!).
 
Defense Updates has put out a video concerning the F-22's upcoming $7.8 billion upgrade package:


The U.S. Air Force is set to pump nearly $7.8 billion into F-22 Raptor upgrades through 2029, marking a strategic shift to extend the jet’s operational relevance well into the 2030s. The bulk of this—$4.7 billion—is earmarked for procurement, while $3.1 billion supports research, development, testing, and evaluation efforts.​
Click to expand...
Two new key technologies will be incorporated.The upgrade program will outfit the 142 Block 30/35 F-22 Raptors with Low-drag external fuel tanks and a next-generation Infrared Defensive System (IRDS).​
Click to expand...
In this video, Defense Updates analyzes how $7.8 billion upgrade package will enhance the F-22 Raptor’s capabilities?
#defenseupdates #f22raptor #f22
Click to expand...
Chapters:
0:00 TITLE
00:11 INTRODUCTION
01:05 SPONSORSHIP - NordVPN
01:39 LOW DRAG TANKS AND PYLONS (LDTP)
03:43 IRDS with TacIRST
07:05 ANALYSIS
Click to expand...
 
I had the displeasure of forcing myself to watch through that entire thing. That video has no new information, just sloppy synthesis of information that one can find in greater detail and accuracy in this thread and various easily found articles published in the last few years.

Seriously, what was even the point? It looks like pure engagement farming.
 

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