KRIEGSMARINE CENTRAL - KM Ship Plans/Discussion

While we focusing on inter-war and Kriegsmarine era warships, am pretty intrigued by Imperial navy projects, browsing while i found some interesting plans about armored ship/raider, fast-battleship studies (currently looking at 27300 tons, 25 knots hull with 10x34cm, a very aggressive design, but Dreadnought-ish turret layout, this one have unique armor layout), some dreadnoughts with more 21cm secondaries.

There's one scan mentioned twins and triple turret 34cm/L45 sadly isn't viewable.
 
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alexi said:
While we focusing on inter-war and Kriegsmarine era warships, am pretty intrigued by Imperial navy projects, browsing while i found some interesting plans about armored ship/raider, fast-battleship studies (currently looking at 27300 tons, 25 knots hull with 10x34cm, a very aggressive design, but Dreadnought-ish turret layout, this one have unique armor layout), some dreadnoughts with more 21cm secondaries.

There's one scan mentioned twins and triple turret 34cm/L45 sadly isn't viewable.
Click to expand...
A scan of this 10 gun design in the offing?

Dave
 
To all:
In the google drive, I've uploaded several RM 6/XX articles of interest.

alexi said:
While we focusing on inter-war and Kriegsmarine era warships, am pretty intrigued by Imperial navy projects, browsing while i found some interesting plans about armored ship/raider, fast-battleship studies (currently looking at 27300 tons, 25 knots hull with 10x34cm, a very aggressive design, but Dreadnought-ish turret layout, this one have unique armor layout), some dreadnoughts with more 21cm secondaries.

There's one scan mentioned twins and triple turret 34cm/L45 sadly isn't viewable.
Click to expand...
If you happen to find anything on the Flottenkreuzer (1916) designs I'd be very interested in that.
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
If you happen to find anything on the Flottenkreuzer (1916) designs I'd be very interested in that.
Click to expand...
They do have, search RM-3 going to "part 9 construction department" that's were they listed all real designs (blueprint scans, material notebook) and never-were projects, order the scans since most doesn't have digital scans available.
Preliminary 28.3cm turret plans for panzerschiff projects in 1926-27/28, including both twins and triple turret, various hoist designs (either high angle loader or typical German bulky elevator hoists or railcart hoist and handling trays), re-edit for better visibility.
https://imgur.com/a/odNgANC
 
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alexi said:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
If you happen to find anything on the Flottenkreuzer (1916) designs I'd be very interested in that.
Click to expand...
They do have, search RM-3 going to "part 9 construction department" that's were they listed all real designs (blueprint scans, material notebook) and never-were projects, order the scans since most doesn't have digital scans available.
Preliminary 28.3cm turret plans for panzerschiff projects in 1926-27/28, including both twins and triple turret, various hoist designs (either high angle loader or typical German bulky elevator hoists or railcart hoist and handling trays), re-edit for better visibility.
https://imgur.com/a/odNgANC
Click to expand...
After a painstaking and meticulous search, I've only got a couple of iffy leads and no definite Flottenkreuzer. It's either there under a different name or unnamed entirely.

I'll add these turret plans to the drive.
 
If you happen to find anything on the Flottenkreuzer (1916) designs I'd be very interested in that.
Click to expand...
If you have time, go on "RM 3 Reichsmarineamt Teil 03 und 04 Allgemeines Marine-Departement" search "schiffbauwesen" (ship engineering) go to "Schiffbauwesen allgemein" (general folder), that folder have load of documents about ship plan, possibly never-were projects, i have to found a late 1918 document mentioned fast-battleship with triple and quadruple turret.

Edit: if you want more, go on "RM 3 Reichsmarineamt Teil 06 Konstruktions-Departement" to "schiffsakten", it will show all type of ships and click on "Bau von... - Allgemeines " (construction of [insert name here] ship - general), these folder contains plans, sketch, model, projects, reports etc.
 
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Here's 26400t battleship study with triple 30.5cm turrets.
3PxGINR.jpg

pGaLuVn.jpg


I vaguely recalled one Lesta developer said the sketch of German 30.5cm triple turret somewhere in bunderachiv, no luck so far other than the one of the file talk about "reports on 30.5cm triple turret", have to be order sadly (likely referenced to their opinions about 30.5cm turret onboard Tegethoff-class battleship, wonder if there are possible sketch from that file).
 
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Ohh! The German Viribus Unitis!
Do you know the design date?
It is surely not from 1893!
 
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alexi said:
If you happen to find anything on the Flottenkreuzer (1916) designs I'd be very interested in that.
Click to expand...
If you have time, go on "RM 3 Reichsmarineamt Teil 03 und 04 Allgemeines Marine-Departement" search "schiffbauwesen" (ship engineering) go to "Schiffbauwesen allgemein" (general folder), that folder have load of documents about ship plan, possibly never-were projects, i have to found a late 1918 document mentioned fast-battleship with triple and quadruple turret.

Edit: if you want more, go on "RM 3 Reichsmarineamt Teil 06 Konstruktions-Departement" to "schiffsakten", it will show all type of ships and click on "Bau von... - Allgemeines " (construction of [insert name here] ship - general), these folder contains plans, sketch, model, projects, reports etc.
Click to expand...
Thank you, it's possible I've been through it but I'll go and reverf.
 
So, its possible that KW45/50 battlecruisers somewhere in the archives, although old WP 3.0 board said the plans are somewhere in US naval archives (the existed sketch provide number file, but the image have poor quality, hard to tell), i don't know if many persons used to browse that forums still here can help me this one.
 
alexi said:
So, its possible that KW45/50 battlecruisers somewhere in the archives, although old WP 3.0 board said the plans are somewhere in US naval archives (the existed sketch provide number file, but the image have poor quality, hard to tell), i don't know if many persons used to browse that forums still here can help me this one.
Click to expand...
There are certainly spots of foreign ship plans and data, and I wouldn't doubt that the KW45/50 are actually somewhere in that maze of information and files.
I've already amassed quite a collection of things to buy from there, but unfortunately I haven't seen anything related to the KW series.
 
.

How about this ?

Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine: Unseen Designs of Nazi Germany's Navy: Amazon.co.uk: Sgarlato, Nico, Sgarlato, Alessio: 9781784386870: Books

Buy Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine: Unseen Designs of Nazi Germany's Navy by Sgarlato, Nico, Sgarlato, Alessio (ISBN: 9781784386870) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.
amazon.co.uk

Not out until 22nd May 2022

Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine: Unseen Designs of Nazi Germany's Navy​


(!)

.
 
Which folder(s) contains the guns and turrets?
 
Tzoli said:
Which folder(s) contains the guns and turrets?
Click to expand...
Folder RM-24 OKM / Marinewaffenamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine, i went through a bunch of them, if you looking for German dual-purpose 12.7 and 12.8cm turrets they are all in RM 24-2 (from 2/1 to 2/24 with varies of turret shape and design) RM 24-3 contains data of naval shell types.
 
I'm more interested in the big gun turrets. the 40,6cm and 50+cm twin/triple quad ones.
 
Oh, i mean you have to go on bunderachiv to see them... but actually most of the quad turret 16" design already posted here, the last one i posted was the interior, hoist of French-style quad 16" gun turret, there's another scans of quad 16" (the one with two duals in a turret) somewhere in the folders.

Few left didn't bother to posts: another 11.1" triple turret with slightly different shape called "P" turret type, data on USN triple 14" turret from "Idaho" with sketch, a bunch of coastal batteries.
 
Care to provide a link? There might be other turret drawings there
 
Tzoli said:
And where is that folder?
I can't find it here:

Germany - Sarcasticat's Home :) - Google Drive

drive.google.com drive.google.com
and this folder is empty:

German Ship Plans - SARCASTICAT - Google Drive

drive.google.com drive.google.com
Click to expand...
I apologize, I'm working in the framework of what @Kingpin61 has already made. That's no excuse - I should be organizing, and will do so when I can find the time.
Tzoli said:
Care to provide a link? There might be other turret drawings there
Click to expand...
Invenio is kind of tricky (it's down even as we speak) but I will grab the link for you when it becomes available again.
 
phil gollin said:
.

How about this ?

Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine: Unseen Designs of Nazi Germany's Navy: Amazon.co.uk: Sgarlato, Nico, Sgarlato, Alessio: 9781784386870: Books

Buy Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine: Unseen Designs of Nazi Germany's Navy by Sgarlato, Nico, Sgarlato, Alessio (ISBN: 9781784386870) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.
amazon.co.uk

Not out until 22nd May 2022

Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine: Unseen Designs of Nazi Germany's Navy​


(!)

.
Click to expand...
:thinking: Now this is interesting. I'll pre-order it, but I wonder if there will be anything beyond what's already available, I wonder?
 
Ahh I see. I wait then!
I also wish to compare the twin 28cm turrets of the Deutschland preliminaries to the actual built triple ones, because comparing them with my drawings the the barrels on the twin ones are protruding much more from the turret, while length wise the twin gunhouse is almost the same as the triple as built.
 
So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?
 
Colonial-Marine said:
So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?
Click to expand...
Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.
 
I'm not sure even the Germans were known about the true specifications of the Yamstos!
 
According to my friend there was a German delegation that visited the Yamato, but the Japanesd were very keen on that they not get anywhere close to the muzzles of the main armament! So not even the Germans know the true capabilities of Yamato.
 
ceccherini said:
Colonial-Marine said:
So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?
Click to expand...
Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.
Click to expand...
When you say work was done was there anything completed in metal other than the 21" gun? (Navweaps says that this was indeed 533mm and not 530mm) A lot of the sources on the H-series battleship specifically reference 20" guns for H-44 so are plans for either a 508mm or 510mm gun beyond the realm of possibility?

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
ceccherini said:
Colonial-Marine said:
So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?
Click to expand...
Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.
Click to expand...
When you say work was done was there anything completed in metal other than the 21" gun? (Navweaps says that this was indeed 533mm and not 530mm) A lot of the sources on the H-series battleship specifically reference 20" guns for H-44 so are plans for either a 508mm or 510mm gun beyond the realm of possibility?

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.
Click to expand...
As far as I know the only naval gun larger than 16" actually built and tested by Germans was the Gerat 36 21" L52 gun. Actual German documents talk of 45 cm and 50 cm gun, never heard of a 51cm gun while 508mm makes no sense for a country using metric system.
 
From what i have read, the Germans that saw yamato reported that the guns
were at least 16in maybe larger based on the size of the turret.
 
muttly said:
From what i have read, the Germans that saw yamato reported that the guns
were at least 16in maybe larger based on the size of the turret.
Click to expand...
Only one German, the naval attache in Tokyo, ever saw the Yamato and he was forbidden to go around the main guns turrets. IJN was so keen not to inform the Germans of the true specs of the Yamato class that the tour was authorized only after a personal request from Hitler and only because the attache only served on ships with at most 11" guns and he was belived to be incapable to distinguish between a 16" and a 18" gun. Quite ironically around 1940 the German publications were the only ones around the world reporting the next generation Japanese battleships to be armed with 18" guns but for the duration of the war the official consensus in German military circles was that the Yamatos has 16" guns
 
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ceccherini said:
Colonial-Marine said:
ceccherini said:
Colonial-Marine said:
So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?
Click to expand...
Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.
Click to expand...
When you say work was done was there anything completed in metal other than the 21" gun? (Navweaps says that this was indeed 533mm and not 530mm) A lot of the sources on the H-series battleship specifically reference 20" guns for H-44 so are plans for either a 508mm or 510mm gun beyond the realm of possibility?

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.
Click to expand...
As far as I know the only naval gun larger than 16" actually built and tested by Germans was the Gerat 36 21" L52 gun. Actual German documents talk of 45 cm and 50 cm gun, never heard of a 51cm gun while 508mm makes no sense for a country using metric system.
Click to expand...
Even Germans using metric system，They still built 406mm artillery（and 127mm？）
 
cattalonX said:
ceccherini said:
Colonial-Marine said:
ceccherini said:
Colonial-Marine said:
So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?
Click to expand...
Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.
Click to expand...
When you say work was done was there anything completed in metal other than the 21" gun? (Navweaps says that this was indeed 533mm and not 530mm) A lot of the sources on the H-series battleship specifically reference 20" guns for H-44 so are plans for either a 508mm or 510mm gun beyond the realm of possibility?

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.
Click to expand...
As far as I know the only naval gun larger than 16" actually built and tested by Germans was the Gerat 36 21" L52 gun. Actual German documents talk of 45 cm and 50 cm gun, never heard of a 51cm gun while 508mm makes no sense for a country using metric system.
Click to expand...
Even Germans using metric system，They still built 406mm artillery（and 127mm？）
Click to expand...
406 mm was defined by the Treaty. Even if the H39 battleships were totally out of the regulation, their guns design started in 1934 having the treaty compliance in mind. After the start of the war it was intended to rebore it to 420 mm. The 5" gun is more misterious through.
 
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Some fixes for your file names. The 28cm C_26Le (with Railcart).jpeg is actually the twin turret for the 30,5cm/55 gun. The gunhouse and barrel is much larger then the previous 28cm turrets and guns.
 
Tzoli said:
Some fixes for your file names. The 28cm C_26Le (with Railcart).jpeg is actually the twin turret for the 30,5cm/55 gun. The gunhouse and barrel is much larger then the previous 28cm turrets and guns.
Click to expand...
I'll go through and fix it, thanks. How exactly do you know it's a 30.5cm? I'll rename regardless, but just curious.
 
The 28cm labelled twin and triple turret drawings shows a 16-16,1m long barrel (With the breech mechanism) which is good for the 14,815m long barrel of the actual Deutschlands (Projectile lengths was 1.047 and 1.188mm APC and HE)
That other drawing shows a barrel length of 20,1-20,2m with the breech mechanism. A 305mm/60 gun should be 18,3m long with the added breech mechanism that is good for 20 meters (The 305mm shell for the 30,5cm/56 SK C/39 gun was 1.4950mm long) that is why I think that drawing is for the bigger, 305mm armed Zenker design's turret.
 
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