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Junkers Ju 287, development, projects and prototypes

redstar72

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sgeorges4 said:
Thanks! The EF 131 was a soviet project or the operationnal variant of the junkers 287?
See replies #11 and #24 in this topic.
 

sgeorges4

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Do you have something on the junkers 287/henschel hs 132 mistel? I think I had something in a Lufthart magazine,but I don't rember wich one(it's the one with a arado ar234/henschel hs 132 mistel)?

Thanks for your answwer!
 

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What were the experiences of those forward swept wings at the time? What I have come across suggests these designs tend to suffer from chronic wing weakness/failures. Is there any actual data on the subject?
 

hesham

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From Aero Journal 71,

what was the different between the drawings ?.
 

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Aubi

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The side-view has backwards swept wings and no tail turret, no engines in the wings, and no turret behind the (very differently glassed) cockpit.
 

hesham

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Maybe a variant ?.
 

taildragger

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What were the experiences of those forward swept wings at the time? What I have come across suggests these designs tend to suffer from chronic wing weakness/failures. Is there any actual data on the subject?
The big inherent disadvantage is structural. Whereas deflection of a swept wing is self-correcting (increasing aerodynamic forces push the structure back into it's natural position the further it deflects) an FSW wing experiences a vicious cycle where increasing aerodynamic forces act to increase deflection the further it progresses. For that reason, FSW structures have to be much stiffer and therefore heavier than swept wings.
They do have aerodynamic advantages though, particularly relating to stall behavior. These advantages caused the brief enthusiasm for FSW designs in the 90s when it became apparent that fibers in composite structures could be oriented to maximize stiffness where needed and minimize the weight penalty.
Of course the structural disadvantage disappears if the aircraft is flying backwards - perhaps some sort of super cobra maneuver inspired Sukhio's FSW prototype.
 
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hesham

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The EF.132 from Aero Journal 71.
 

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Yeager

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That Wikipedia article is a bit incorrect - the Ju 287V2 and the EF-131 are very similar, but different aircraft. When the Soviet command became interested in Ju 287 development, any construction drawings weren't found and Baade's team had to recreate the design anew (though some aggregates built for the 287V2 were used for EF-131 prototype - especially some wing sections). The EF-131 fuselage was 2.5 meters longer than the 287V2, and the empennage differed in dimensions and (slightly) in shape. Also, EF-131 had remote-controlled gun turret with two 13-mm machine guns in the tail end of fuselage, which Ju 287V2 had not. The automatic slats were also redesigned.

Here are 3-views of both the 287V-2 and EF-131. The 287V-2 drawing was found at http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/ju287.html, and the EF-131 is from Dmitry Sobolev's book "German trails in Soviet aviation history".
You're right that the EF 131 and Ju 287 V2 were different aircraft, the latter being unarmed, but I recently got copies of Griehl's Jet Planes of the Third Reich: The Secret Projects, Volume Two and Horst Lommel's Junkers Ju 287: The World's First Swept-Wing Jet Aircraft, and it recently transpired to me that the Ju 287 V2 actually had the same airframe as the Ju 287 V1, except that it had a slightly lowered horizontal stabilizer, the lack of a tail wheel, and six jet engines. The 3-view of plane labeled as the Ju 287 V2 (taken from Tom Hitchcock's 1974 Monogram publication on the Ju 287) is actually of the Ju 287 V3, because the V3 was to mirror the production Ju 287, and the V3, like the V2, had no armament (the Ju 287 V5 was to be the first Ju 287 prototype with armament). And contrary to some German aviation sources, and Hitchcock's publication, the Ju 287 V2 was not only never flown in the USSR after WW2, it was also blown up by the Germans along with V1 to avoid capture by Allied forces, even though the Soviets did use remnants of the Ju 287 V2 in the construction of the EF 131.

As also noted by Lommel, the Ju 287 V2 originally was to have four underwing BMW 003s and two fuselage mounted Jumo 004s, but Junkers decided to change the engine configuration for V2 to have six turbojets mounted in two underwing cluster-shaped triple packs. In the one photo on page 72 of Lommel's book, the upper two engines in the new tri-engine configuration adopted for the V2 are the Jumo 004s because the engine starters are visible, and the jet engine below the top two engines with a darker "mouth" is the BMW 003 because the engine starter for the BMW 003 was buried deep inside the intake.

That said, the use of six turbojets for the Ju 287 V2, V3, and EF 131 could be largely responsible for the confusion of the EF 131 with the Ju 287 V2 and V3 in some older books in Nazi aviation, because the EF 131 had tail armament and differently shaped tips of the horizontal stabilizer, even though it had the same airframe design and underwing triple-turbojet pack as V3.
 
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Yeager

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Does anyone have a legible copy of the Ju 287 V3 skin plan (Haut-Plan) by any chance?

I am very interested in the dimensions between the fuselage frames. This drawing was reproduced in Horst Lommel's excellent Ju 287 book (page 98 of the Aviatic Verlag edition) but I can't read the numbers. I don't know if a larger copy may have been published in the Schiffer edition of this book?
I saw this drawing at the bottom of page 98 of the Schiffer edition of Lommel's book and the designation in the upper left corner of the cell that contains the writing "Haut-Plan" clearly reads Ju 287 V3 because even though the V3 was to mimic the design of the production Ju 287, it was unarmed.
 

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The fourth image in this post isn't of the EF 131, but instead is of a model of the Junkers Ju 287A-1 made by model kit builder Gunter Sengfelder, judging from the fact that it appears on page 7 of David Myhra's 1998 book Secret Aircraft Designs of the Third Reich.
 

blackkite

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Can I see skin buckling? Too thin? 
 

Yeager

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In Luftfahrt History 16,

why they wrote on the drawings Ju-288 and not Ju-287,a misprint or what ?.
The German high command called the first two Ju 287 prototypes Ju 288 V201 and V202 to deceive outsiders into thinking that these planes were merely jet-powered derivatives of the Ju 288, as explained in Horst Lommel's book on the Junkers Ju 287.
 

redstar72

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You're right that the EF 131 and Ju 287 V2 were different aircraft, the latter being unarmed, but I recently got copies of Griehl's Jet Planes of the Third Reich: The Secret Projects, Volume Two and Horst Lommel's Junkers Ju 287: The World's First Swept-Wing Jet Aircraft, and it recently transpired to me that the Ju 287 V2 actually had the same airframe as the Ju 287 V1, except that it had a slightly lowered horizontal stabilizer, the lack of a tail wheel, and six jet engines.
Same airframe as the V1? Do you mean that V2 also had He 177 fuselage and fixed landing gear? :rolleyes:
 

Yeager

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You're right that the EF 131 and Ju 287 V2 were different aircraft, the latter being unarmed, but I recently got copies of Griehl's Jet Planes of the Third Reich: The Secret Projects, Volume Two and Horst Lommel's Junkers Ju 287: The World's First Swept-Wing Jet Aircraft, and it recently transpired to me that the Ju 287 V2 actually had the same airframe as the Ju 287 V1, except that it had a slightly lowered horizontal stabilizer, the lack of a tail wheel, and six jet engines.
Same airframe as the V1? Do you mean that V2 also had He 177 fuselage and fixed landing gear? :rolleyes:
That's what I said. The V2, like the V1, was made by cobbling an He 177 fuselage with Ju 352 and B-24 landing gear as well as a Ju 188G-2 empennage, and it had fixed landing gear. However, the upper nose wheel undercarriage pants were painted in a bright color rather than black, the tailwheel was removed, and the main undercarriage was braced inward, not outward. Images of the Ju 287 V2 can be found on pages 71, 73, and 74 of Lommel's book, and I've attached a diagram (from page 5 of the Aviatik magazine about the Junkers Ju 287 and EF 131) with a couple side views showing what the Ju 287 V2 looked like. Also note that the Ju 287 V2 was given the cover designation Ju 288 V202 by the RLM, just as the Ju 287 V1 was given the cover designation Ju 288 V201.
 

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Yeager

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In his book about the Ju 287, Horst Lommel states on page 79 that Junkers Ju 287 V4 was 60 percent complete when the Soviets overran the Junkers plant in Dessau, and he shockingly writes on page 76 that Ju 287 V3 was 80-90 percent complete when the Americans entered Dessau. Are there any possible photos of the Ju 287 V4 under construction, and does anyone have extant photos of the Ju 287 V3 during construction?
 

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