Angel

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Hi again, about P1154 I find this pic.
 

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Archibald

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Thorvic has made a splendid model of the P.1134.

the P.1150 was the first step to the unlucky P.1154. In fact the P.1150 was not powerful enough for the NATO NBMR.3 of 1961, so 2 evolutions followed.
the first was the the P.1154 (which used the same lift system as the Harrier, with PCB for supersonic flight), the second the P.1155. both were tendered for the NBMR.3...

The P.1155 was a backup for the P.1154, very similar but using lift-jets. This was much less practical than the P.1154, so the backup was... abandoned.

After that, the P.1154 was started for both the RAF and RN before beeing cancelled in February 1965, along the HS-681 transport...
 

Angel

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Hi, pics of P-1154

source: http://www.harrier.org.uk/history/
 

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Rickshaw

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I've seen quite a few of the standard drawings, etc. of the P1154, however I've never seen a three view drawing. I was wondering, does anybody have one?
 

Jemiba

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Older ones from me, based on the sketches in Robert Jackson "Sea Harrier and AV-8B".
Better 3-views are in Tony Buttlers "Secret Projects" and in Derek Woods "Project
Cancelled". Can send them via mail (without copyright problems), if you want.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Harrier by Francis K Mason has a great pic of the 1150/1 nozzle arrangement which looks pretty much identical (1154 was 1150/3), 1150/1 drawing, 1154 2 seat naval drawing, and a nice photo of the underside of the BS100 (1001) engine showing the nozzles very nicely.
 

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inkworm

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I am doing some artwork for the P1154 and have a few images but wondered if anyone had anything more in depth on the subject, there is a little artistic license based on lessons learned from the Harrier evolution, here is the work so far...

P1154-RAF.jpg



P1154-RN.jpg
 

danielgrimes

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Beautiful profiles! Do a search above, or a google search http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011371948094539798733:lzyt7tvbalq and you'll find lots of P1154 info. And if you're quick, there's a lecture tonight - http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10671.0.html
 

uk 75

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Starviking

Brilliant. Just brilliant. Are you taking commissions?

UK 75
 

inkworm

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Thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated and glad you like it, had to second guess the colours based on the Phantoms and GR1s of the time as the scheme would have been based on the same format.

I did do a couple of searches before posting anything up but couldn't find anything, could just be me missing something.

And I did see the lecture but can't make it down, though judging by the thread it looks like Harrier isn't 100% so hopefully it will be rescheduled and hope he is better soon.

Also in the pipeline are some P1127 and Kestrel profiles but they weren't canceled so I'm sure you aren't interested in them here :)

Finally I am always available for commissions UK75.
 

foiling

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Beautiful artwork, inkworm. Well done, I hope to see more exciting aircraft from you.
 

Pioneer

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I concur with my fellow members opinion - Great artwork Inkworm!

Will you be potentially considering earmarked export customers/uses?
Would be great to see a Royal Australian Navy version ;)

Regards
Pioneer
 
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inkworm

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For the book these are for it is only planned to have a couple of examples of the type and how it could have looked if in service. More of a Harrier book really.

However I might tackle some other schemes anyway at some point, what was the Australian Navy flying in the 70s', wasn't it A4s?
 

TsrJoe

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http://tsr2.multiply.com/photos/album/24/Hawker_P.1154_Harrier
 

Abraham Gubler

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Found this image on the inside cover of "Harrier: The Biography" by Jonathan Glancey. Image credit is courtesy of Phillip Jarrett. Book is OK, image is awesome, my scan is mediocre.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Thats the "twin-spey derivative" version. I didn't have that version - all the drawings I have are BS.100 engined. Merged in a couple of other topics.
 

Barrington Bond

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Didn't realise we hadn't had anything for these. I'll have to have a think about which books they come from.
 

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Abraham Gubler

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Barrington Bond said:
Didn't realise we hadn't had anything for these. I'll have to have a think about which books they come from.

When I was using the search engine to find a thread to put that picture in I was suprised at how little P.1154 information was on the forum. Apart from Michael Pryce's presentation that is. I will do a new scan of that image with some backing black cardboard and a little bit of knife work on the book to try and get a better copy. Just not right this minute.
 

Mike Pryce

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Barrington - your first pic is from Francis K Mason's Harrier book. He re-drew the GA and it is not entirely accurate.


The second on you posted is the original, published in Bill Gunston's 1984 Harrier book for Ian Allen - my first Harrier book!


The RN P.1154 was probably never going to work. It was intended to be BOTH 'cat and trap' AND V/STOL in one airframe (it's hard enough in two variants as with JSF). The twin Spey version was heavier and had less power than the BS.100 version, which hardly helped.
 

alertken

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Whether with PCB/BS100 or with deflected thrust reheated Twin Spey, P.1154 faced insurmountable headwinds, such as in Chief Defence Scientific Advisor Solly Zuckerman: P.383, Monkeys, Men and Missiles, Collins,1988: "a technological and economic impossibility". He, thus his boss SecState Defence Healey, wondered which sortie required supersonic+V/STOL. Remains a good question re.F-35B.

Does anyone here really wish to assert that RN would have been better served with single-engined P.1154, or RAFG with no F-4s (don't harp on about fat, slow Speys)?
 

Jemiba

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alertken said:
...don't harp on about fat, slow Speys?

The question, that rather will come up is, how much better the P.1154 would have done
in a conflict like that around the Falkland Islands. The Phantom was still in service, so the
P.1154 probablywould have been as well, but the big carriers may have been scrapped
nonetheless. HMS Invincible/Hermes + P.1154 = lower losses, than those ships + Sea Harrier ?
 
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zen

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Difficult to say.


P1154 has more severe issues with its reheated jet efflux than dry thrust P1127. So there would be more constraints on the landing profile on a carrier. Constraints mean it will be less able to lanch safely in the sort of weather they had.
That said a carrier's sponsond deck offers a theoretical means to deal with HGR, by using a grid over a hole. Efflux goes mainly through down to the sea, grid would need cooling though.
So depends on how much 'change' we're talking about to get these machines down on the decks of Hermes and Invincible?


Last thing you want is RAF machines landing VL with supersonic 2000K jet efflux blasting onto the decks of any CV with minimal practice had by all. Folks are going to get burnt feet, and maybe blown overboard.


Assuming use of AIM-9L then the P1154 should get more of the Argentine aircraft, since it can get out to them faster and catch them up faster too.
 

zen

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Does anyone here really wish to assert that RN would have been better served with single-engined P.1154, or RAFG with no F-4s (don't harp on about fat, slow Speys)?


F4 lost its strike role to Jaguar. Which was expensively developed and purchased, and never flew as the intended 'supersonic trainer' it started life as.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Abraham Gubler said:
When I was using the search engine to find a thread to put that picture in I was suprised at how little P.1154 information was on the forum. Apart from Michael Pryce's presentation that is. I will do a new scan of that image with some backing black cardboard and a little bit of knife work on the book to try and get a better copy. Just not right this minute.

I'm afraid attempts to get a better scan have not provided better results. Having the image glued to the inside of the hard cover means I can't get rid of its effect and while I can get a bit of a better scan its not any better than the images B.Bond has uploaded. But no doubt the full size brochure fold out is out there somewhere just waiting for a good scan and public sharing.
 

uk 75

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There are a wide range of three view drawings both of the Joint Service single seater 1154 and the two seater RN version.


I found these two on Google Images. I also have one in a book at home of a Bullpup armed 1154, which I will try and find.
 

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Mike Pryce

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These look like they may come from Bill Gunston's 1981/1984 Harrier book for Ian Allen.


I have seen many other GAs. I'll try to dig out the twin engined version with vertically stacked engines like the Lightning!
 

AeroFranz

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Harrier said:
These look like they may come from Bill Gunston's 1981/1984 Harrier book for Ian Allen.


I have seen many other GAs. I'll try to dig out the twin engined version with vertically stacked engines like the Lightning!


That would be most appreciated - I want to see that!
 

Mike Pryce

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Attached.


Not Speys, but scaled Pegasus's (Pegasi?).


From RR Bristol archives.
 

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GTX

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Interesting. Is there a good reference for the development and ultimately cancellation of the P.1154?
 

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