Harpoon missile

[TomS]

"Two U.S. officials said the United States was working on potential solutions that included pulling a launcher off of a U.S. ship."

Both Harpoon and NSM are available in land-launch. Why do they think they need to "pull launchers from ships"? (As if that would even work.)

Harpoon is not currently in inventory in a land-mobile configuration (Taiwan ordered for delivery in 2024, but I suspect it's not actually built yet).

Likewise, the US doesn't have NSM in inventory ina truck-mounted version unless you count an experimental Nemesis launcher the Marines have been playing with.

It sounds to me like they are looking at the absolute fastest delivery, which might be to back up a cruiser to a pier somewhere in Poland, offload the Harpoon canisters and unbolt the Mk141 frames. (I'm assuming someone can find a new SWG-1 set to add on)

 

[sferrin]

Buy them off the shelf:

NSM Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV)

NSM Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV)

www.kongsberg.com

The Harpoon pic is from a decade ago. Did they not follow through?

(Also wondering why Taiwan would want Harpoon over their Hsiung Feng III. Can't afford as many as they'd like?)

 

[Forest Green]

As we have seen earlier (probably a locked thread), not many ground launchers were produced or still available. Only a few countries are potentially capable of delivering such items (Danmark or UK).

My guess is that this story is more an alibi.

There was a rumour about Israel delivering the Blue Spear (Gabriel V). I think that was stopped to avoid escalation but now it could be back on. Or just give them LRASM, and MILAS (so the subs don't feel left out).

 

[TomS]

Buy them off the shelf:

NSM Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV)

NSM Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV)

www.kongsberg.com

View attachment 678196

View attachment 678197

View attachment 678195

The Harpoon pic is from a decade ago. Did they not follow through?

(Also wondering why Taiwan would want Harpoon over their Hsiung Feng III. Can't afford as many as they'd like?)

So, the first NSM truck system was for Poland. Making more would take time, and the Poles aren't likely to give up theirs right now.

The second is the Nemesis (or however the Marines are spelling it, probably with a backward s). It's a one-off experimental unit and probably not fit for operational use (especially the self-driving JLTV chassis).

The last is probably the Danish Harpoon coast defense battery, which was retired many years ago and may no longer exist.

As for Taiwan, I assume they are buying Harpoon with US money. HF-III apparently can be used from trucks as well, but it can't be cheap.

 

[Josh_TN]

It's a little surprising there isn't anyone in NATO with an off the shelf land launched AShM capability.

Also I can see why Taiwan would use US money on US systems, but I would have thought they might hold out for some flavor of US launched NSM.

 

[TomS]

It's a little surprising there isn't anyone in NATO with an off the shelf land launched AShM capability.

Germany strikes me as the biggest surprise. I'd have thought coast defense batteries on the Baltic coast would have been a no-brainer. But then, Germany...

Also I can see why Taiwan would use US money on US systems, but I would have thought they might hold out for some flavor of US launched NSM.

The Norwegian content in NSM might be a barrier to Taiwanese sales. Not sure what Norway's policy is vis a vis Taiwan/PRC.

 

[MihoshiK]

It's a little surprising there isn't anyone in NATO with an off the shelf land launched AShM capability.

Germany strikes me as the biggest surprise. I'd have thought coast defense batteries on the Baltic coast would have been a no-brainer. But then, Germany...

Germany used to have mobile coast defense batteries for the Baltics in the form of FACs.

 

[Josh_TN]

The Norwegian content in NSM might be a barrier to Taiwanese sales. Not sure what Norway's policy is vis a vis Taiwan/PRC.

Ah, yeah. Good point.

 

[TomS]

Or just give them LRASM, and MILAS (so the subs don't feel left out).

I really don't like the idea of putting LRASM somewhere the Russians might recover a failed round.

As for MILAS, what do you propose to target them with? You have to drop that torpedo pretty much right on top of the sub target, and Ukrainian Navy ASW assets are basically nonexistent right now.

 

[Josh_TN]

LRASM is air launched in any case.

 

[TomcatViP]

View: https://youtu.be/kl4ffgPu6qc

 

[TomS]

View: https://youtu.be/kl4ffgPu6qc

A limited experiment, not an operational capability.

 

[Josh_TN]

View: https://youtu.be/kl4ffgPu6qc

Yes, they once kicked it out of a mk41. That does not make it an operational weapon system.

 

[Forest Green]

As for MILAS, what do you propose to target them with? You have to drop that torpedo pretty much right on top of the sub target, and Ukrainian Navy ASW assets are basically nonexistent right now.

Stick them on ships carrying food out of Ukraine.

 

[TomS]

As for MILAS, what do you propose to target them with? You have to drop that torpedo pretty much right on top of the sub target, and Ukrainian Navy ASW assets are basically nonexistent right now.

Stick them on ships carrying food out of Ukraine.

As for MILAS, what do you propose to target them with? You have to drop that torpedo pretty much right on top of the sub target, and Ukrainian Navy ASW assets are basically nonexistent right now.

Stick them on ships carrying food out of Ukraine.

I feel like there's some confusion about how ASW standoff weapons like MILAS work.

First you have to detect the submarine, usually using sonar. This usually gives you a rough area where the sun may be located (or worst case, several possible areas). Then you have to localize the sub, refining your estimated location to within a fairly small area. Only then can you launch a weapon at the sub. A missile like MILAS drops a torpedo that will then circle around, hopefully finding and homing in in the sub.

Ukraine has none of the sensors needed to detect or localize submarines. Hypothetically, the USN might be able to provide the data, thanks to the P-8s they are flying in the Black Sea. But those aircraft don't seem to be flying ASW missions, based on what little data is publicly visible. Localizing a sub is a huge effort for a lone patrol aircraft to take on. It would be pretty obvious if a P-8 was working a sub contact.

 

[sferrin]

As for MILAS, what do you propose to target them with? You have to drop that torpedo pretty much right on top of the sub target, and Ukrainian Navy ASW assets are basically nonexistent right now.

Stick them on ships carrying food out of Ukraine.

As for MILAS, what do you propose to target them with? You have to drop that torpedo pretty much right on top of the sub target, and Ukrainian Navy ASW assets are basically nonexistent right now.

Stick them on ships carrying food out of Ukraine.

I feel like there's some confusion about how ASW standoff weapons like MILAS work.

First you have to detect the submarine, usually using sonar. This usually gives you a rough area where the sun may be located (or worst case, several possible areas). Then you have to localize the sub, refining your estimated location to within a fairly small area. Only then can you launch a weapon at the sub. A missile like MILAS drops a torpedo that will then circle around, hopefully finding and homing in in the sub.

Ukraine has none of the sensors needed to detect or localize submarines. Hypothetically, the USN might be able to provide the data, thanks to the P-8s they are flying in the Black Sea. But those aircraft don't seem to be flying ASW missions, based on what little data is publicly visible. Localizing a sub is a huge effort for a lone patrol aircraft to take on. It would be pretty obvious if a P-8 was working a sub contact.

What are your thoughts on the Indian SMART? (Not in this context, but in general.)

SMART (missile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Forest Green]

I feel like there's some confusion about how ASW standoff weapons like MILAS work.

First you have to detect the submarine, usually using sonar. This usually gives you a rough area where the sun may be located (or worst case, several possible areas). Then you have to localize the sub, refining your estimated location to within a fairly small area. Only then can you launch a weapon at the sub. A missile like MILAS drops a torpedo that will then circle around, hopefully finding and homing in in the sub.

Ukraine has none of the sensors needed to detect or localize submarines. Hypothetically, the USN might be able to provide the data, thanks to the P-8s they are flying in the Black Sea. But those aircraft don't seem to be flying ASW missions, based on what little data is publicly visible. Localizing a sub is a huge effort for a lone patrol aircraft to take on. It would be pretty obvious if a P-8 was working a sub contact.

UUVs?

What are your thoughts on the Indian SMART? (Not in this context, but in general.)

SMART (missile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 678241

Based on the quote above you would have to think that it doesn't have a chance of even nearly working.

 

[TomS]

What are your thoughts on the Indian SMART? (Not in this context, but in general.)

Never heard of it before but frankly it seems weird.

That's a very long range weapon with a significant time of flight even at supersonic speeds. From the description, it's dependent on having a sensor platform (ship or aircraft) close to the target to refine/update target location. Why not put your ASW weapon on the sensor platform and save a coordination step?

 

[sferrin]

What are your thoughts on the Indian SMART? (Not in this context, but in general.)

Never heard of it before but frankly it seems weird.

That's a very long range weapon with a significant time of flight even at supersonic speeds. From the description, it's dependent on having a sensor platform (ship or aircraft) close to the target to refine/update target location. Why not put your ASW weapon on the sensor platform and save a coordination step?

I wonder if they plan on putting in something like SOSUS or long-duration unmanned aircraft/ships/subs. (Or both.). They do the detecting and then a missile gets launched, likely with midcourse updates.

 

[timmymagic]

I wonder if they plan on putting in something like SOSUS or long-duration unmanned aircraft/ships/subs. (Or both.). They do the detecting and then a missile gets launched, likely with midcourse updates.

Even with SOSUS you still had to go out and localise the contact with Subs, Frigates, Helos or MPA.

It's one of the weirdest weapons I've ever seen, everyone's response when it was tested was why?

There was a rumour about Israel delivering the Blue Spear (Gabriel V). I think that was stopped to avoid escalation but now it could be back on. Or just give them LRASM, and MILAS (so the subs don't feel left out).

Think the Blue Spear rumour came from the same place the UK Harpoon one did...

Estonian's were surprised by it...because according to a few commentators there they've yet to receive the first launchers....and I really cannot see Israel breaking their 'embargo' on the transfer of munitions to Ukraine from third parties with such a capable weapon that would alter the strategic balance in such a way. It would be Spike ATGM's first as they could justifiably be seen as defensive support....and that isn't going to happen either...

 

[Forest Green]

I wonder if they plan on putting in something like SOSUS or long-duration unmanned aircraft/ships/subs. (Or both.). They do the detecting and then a missile gets launched, likely with midcourse updates.

Could use relocatable UUV swarms for detection too. I guess you could also use it against ships??

 

[stealthflanker]

Or just having Turkey do some "patrols" in Black Sea and share sensor data. But then since there are no real Western ground based anti submarine missiles, nothing can be done on Submarines. The closest Western equivalent to Indian SMART would be SUBROC or ASROC. But no ground based of them exist. Or maybe Ukrainian have any remaining Vodopod or Veter they can jerry rig to make work ground based.

Talking about Mid course however.. i'm curious what platform to use for Mid course update. This require a high altitude platform. This ideally done from NATO platform and use Link-16's to address the missile. If one cannot do that then it depends on the quality of the INS and the seeker's detection range or Identification range if the seeker is non RF. For target location determination accuracy of 10 meter Small INS drift of say 1 km/hr for a missile flying at Mach 5 and target range of 300 Km sailing at 10 knots will yield drift error of some 8-9 Km which the seeker has to compensate for. If realtime datalink is available, the error reduces to just 11 meter.

If the mid course platform cannot fly high (e.g 9100 or 12000 m) Then that will constrain the missile's sea skimming ability as soon as horizon limit is reached.

 

[zjz]

Why is it upside down at launch?

 

[Forest Green]

Or just having Turkey do some "patrols" in Black Sea and share sensor data. But then since there are no real Western ground based anti submarine missiles, nothing can be done on Submarines. The closest Western equivalent to Indian SMART would be SUBROC or ASROC. But no ground based of them exist.

MILAS has a range of 35km + 10km for torpedo.

Either that or train dolphins to carry C4.

 

[Moose]

Why is it upside down at launch?

That's rightside-up according to our own forum analysis.

As to why it has the orientation:
The box launcher has a rail inside which moves with the missile for the first few feet of launch to ensure it comes out cleanly. It rides a track along the bottom of the box and out onto the door, and you can see it in the video below.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV3meUosDYc

They could put it on top, so it hangs from the rail as on an aircraft, but with this configuration the door can "fall" open in a failure state rather than hanging up and blocking the missile. The airframe was designed to be air-or-ground(sea)-launched, although the JSM derivative came along, so it mounts to the rail along the "bottom" of the missile the same way it would on an aircraft.

 

[TomS]

Even with SOSUS you still had to go out and localise the contact with Subs, Frigates, Helos or MPA.

It's one of the weirdest weapons I've ever seen, everyone's response when it was tested was why?

One of the articles equates it with Sea Lance/ASW SOW, but that was a very different concept. Sea Lance was designed to get at Soviet SSBNs in their northern bastion without having to run the gauntlet of the bastion defenses.

But that only worked because a) it had an SSN launch platform to get it close and b) it mostly had a nuclear warhead.

A land-based missile to target Chinese SSBNs makes no sense, because the PLAN subs could easily hit Indian targets from much further offshore. Plus, China has a capable land-based ICBM force that could easily hit India and is basically immune to Indian counter-force attacks.

 

[sferrin]

Even with SOSUS you still had to go out and localise the contact with Subs, Frigates, Helos or MPA.

It's one of the weirdest weapons I've ever seen, everyone's response when it was tested was why?

One of the articles equates it with Sea Lance/ASW SOW, but that was a very different concept. Sea Lance was designed to get at Soviet SSBNs in their northern bastion without having to run the gauntlet of the bastion defenses.

But that only worked because a) it had an SSN launch platform to get it close and b) it mostly had a nuclear warhead.

A land-based missile to target Chinese SSBNs makes no sense, because the PLAN subs could easily hit Indian targets from much further offshore. Plus, China has a capable land-based ICBM force that could easily hit India and is basically immune to Indian counter-force attacks.

SSBNs aren't the only targets. SSNs, SSKs, etc.

 

[Forest Green]

A land-based missile to target Chinese SSBNs makes no sense, because the PLAN subs could easily hit Indian targets from much further offshore. Plus, China has a capable land-based ICBM force that could easily hit India and is basically immune to Indian counter-force attacks.

Unless the Chinese submarines are docked in Sri Lanka. There are probably also export markets wrt submarine pens in fake islands.

 

[Cordy]

Talking about Mid course however.. i'm curious what platform to use for Mid course update. This require a high altitude platform. This ideally done from NATO platform and use Link-16's to address the missile. If one cannot do that then it depends on the quality of the INS and the seeker's detection range or Identification range if the seeker is non RF. For target location determination accuracy of 10 meter Small INS drift of say 1 km/hr for a missile flying at Mach 5 and target range of 300 Km sailing at 10 knots will yield drift error of some 8-9 Km which the seeker has to compensate for. If realtime datalink is available, the error reduces to just 11 meter.

If the mid course platform cannot fly high (e.g 9100 or 12000 m) Then that will constrain the missile's sea skimming ability as soon as horizon limit is reached.

If assume sub-sonic anti-ship missiles, Harpoon/LRASM/NSM etc ~Mach 0.85 and target ship at 100 nm with no mid-course guidance available and target ship steaming at 20 knots any thoughts on Pk bearing in mind the INS drift you mention and the very limited range of the small sea skimming missile seeker at that low height?
Assume Pk in above scenario very low at what range does it become positive, IIRC did see mention LRSAM flies at high altitude up to 60 miles out before dropping to lower altitude and eventually sea skimming, is that the realistic max range for an ASCM with no mid-course guidance?

PS Did see claim that the Ukrainian Neptune missiles that sank the Moskva rec'd mid-course guidance from TB2 drones.

 

[TomS]

So, it sounds like Denmark found those retired mobile Harpoon batteries...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1528777142800158721

View: https://twitter.com/beverstine/status/1528777142800158721

 

[Manuducati]

More here:

Harpoon Anti-Ship Missiles Headed To Ukraine From Denmark

Shore-launched Harpoon missiles will bolster Ukraine's ability to put Russian ships at risk, but they cannot break a blockade on their own.

www.thedrive.com

 

[sferrin]

So, it sounds like Denmark found those retired mobile Harpoon batteries...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1528777142800158721

View: https://twitter.com/beverstine/status/1528777142800158721

Would LMAO if somebody came to this thread and went, "wait, WE have some Harpoon launchers?"

 

[mkellytx]

Here as well:

https://news.usni.org/2022/05/23/de...issiles-to-take-on-russian-ships-in-black-sea

 

[Vanessa1402]

Russian ship air defense probably have no issue intercepting a subsonic non stealthy missile like Harpoon. Yes I know Moskva was sunk by similar thing but still, the sailor were probably very careless

 

[sferrin]

Russian ship air defense probably have no issue intercepting a subsonic non stealthy missile like Harpoon. Yes I know Moskva was sunk by similar thing but still, the sailor were probably very careless

What makes you think others would be any different? It's about training and maintenance.

 

[Vanessa1402]

Russian ship air defense probably have no issue intercepting a subsonic non stealthy missile like Harpoon. Yes I know Moskva was sunk by similar thing but still, the sailor were probably very careless

What makes you think others would be any different? It's about training and maintenance.

Others ship are newer and probably in better condition than Moskva

 

[sferrin]

Russian ship air defense probably have no issue intercepting a subsonic non stealthy missile like Harpoon. Yes I know Moskva was sunk by similar thing but still, the sailor were probably very careless

What makes you think others would be any different? It's about training and maintenance.

Others ship are newer and probably in better condition than Moskva

Doesn't mean they're any better trained or supported. Any claims they'd do better would require some sort of evidence.

 

[TomS]

Here as well:

https://news.usni.org/2022/05/23/de...issiles-to-take-on-russian-ships-in-black-sea

I think Sam has a mistake about the type of missiles used in the Danish coastal batteries. That 1999 Boeing press release he quotes about RGM-84L-4 (Harpoon Block II) and the Advanced Harpoon Weapon Control System specifically mentions that these systems were intended for the Stanflex ships. The coastal batteries date back to 1988 and came with Harpoon Block 1 and SWG-1 Harpoon Weapon Control System, which doesn't work against land targets. Denmark eventually upgraded (some of) its Harpoon inventory to Block II, but the first deliveries came in April 2002, about a year before the coastal batteries were retired. Very likely they retired with the older missiles and HWCS.

Probably not a big deal for Ukraine's applications, but worth clarifying.

Russian ship air defense probably have no issue intercepting a subsonic non stealthy missile like Harpoon. Yes I know Moskva was sunk by similar thing but still, the sailor were probably very careless

Subsonic sea-skimmers have stayed in use for a reason. They have some real operational advantages over their supersonic cousins. Lower sea-skimming altitude => shorter detection range, which can turn into fewer engagement opportunities unless the defenders are very on the ball. It's not a slam-dunk choice either way.

It's likely that the Grigorvich class ships are trying to be more alert than Moskva, but honestly, their radar suites are still roughly equivalent to 1990s Western standards, and Russian naval combat direction systems have always been problematic. The one brand new Steregushchiy corvette probably has the best radar setup in the Black Sea Fleet, but she literally just commissioned and I'd be shocked if she was properly worked up.

 

[TomcatViP]

Don't forget that Russia has no AWACS permanently perched up there. There is a reason why western countries with the capabilities to build sea skimming missiles ares still relying on them.

Now tell me where are those Exocet... Would their main war story would only be to have burn to death and drawn young Brits and some poor merchant sailor unlucky to be at the the tip end of a sophisticated kill chain built by France in the Persian Gulf?!

yesterday, France (Airbus) sent H225 to an Asian customer. But still none (which should come with an alleged Exocet cap) were sent in Ukraine, who did contract for them years ago.

I am also wondering what are Ukraine helo that would be able to launch Harpoons. (if any).

 

[Forest Green]

What makes you think others would be any different? It's about training and maintenance.

It's also about how many come at once and what altitude.